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Class Selection

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rbeverjr
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Class Selection

Post by rbeverjr »

There is no best class. The class that is best for you will depend on: (1) how many characters that you choose to play with, (2) your preference for magic or weapons, (3) your preference for melee or ranged weapons, (4) your preference for ultimate power (including careful tactical battles) or ease of play (just barge in and kill stuff), (5) your mood (as your preferences may not always be the same), (6) the stage of the game (spells suck at low level, are great at mid level, become a little less grand when every monster seems resistant to magic), (7) any strictures you place on the game (e.g. how cheesy do you play), (8) whether you will play through the Throne of Bhaal, (9) what mods you have installed, (10) your preference to use stock NPCs or develop your own party, and (11) other assorted variables. So, I will just give my commentary on the traditional important characters: fighter (including ranger and paladin), mage (wizard or sorcerer), thief, druid, cleric, and monk. In this commentary, you may also find reference to multiclass or dual class characters. I did not fully explain my selections as that would make this post extremely long. Of course, you are welcome to express your viewpoints or ask for clarification.

My purpose is to give anyone who picks up this greatest RPG of all time better information than what is available in many of the guidebooks in press or online or some comments on these forums. Comments assume that you have read your manual and have a basic familiarity with the rules, such as what a dual class character is and how to make one. Characters are suggested based on what you can do in this game without a character editor (Shadow Keeper). This commentary is based primarily on my play with parties of 4-6 characters using Shadows of Amn (SoA) and Throne of Bhaal (ToB). I certainly appreciate the comments of yesteryear from the greats like UserUnfriendly, Bruce Lee, and other notables which may have guided my own experience. The only NPC mod that I am familiar with is Tashia; so, I can’t make reference to the others.

With the Throne of Bhaal expansion, dual class characters and multiclass characters tend to be more powerful. This is because the power of the class is drastically slowed after level (L) 22. I usually prefer multiclass because you get racial benefits (human has none), you never loose a class’s benefits like you do when dual classing, and you get High Level Abilities (HLA) sooner and more of them (this is particularly significant, if you are trying to get Use Any Item). I am amazed at the “perfect parties” that all consist of dual class fighter-something else. While you can actually face some encounters with a party of fighters, it’s usually not the easiest way to get things done.

Dual class and multiclass characters can be very powerful. For the challenge, I typically limit myself to one multiclass character and 1 early dual class character (level 7 or 8); however, this varies depending on how many characters I am playing and my mood. Actually, I like using unedited (no Shadow Keeper) NPCs supplied by the game. I definitely get more challenge. I have played multiplayer games with a variety of character-types just to get to know their abilities.

Please note that sometimes my suggested character is not the most powerful character possible, but the one I find enjoyable because of the challenge involved. The following parties are what I consider among the most powerful for a given number of character(s) in the party, assuming you will use all the cheesy game tactics too: 1 character – wizard; 2 characters – fighter-mage-thief, ranger 7-cleric; 3 characters – add Edwin; 4 characters – add inquisitor; 5 characters – add fighter-illusionist; 6 characters – add kensai 13-thief. My favorite party eliminates the cheese of thieves, takes away insect plague, removes stoneskin/ironskin from fighters, and my own strictures inhibit cheese from the mages. Thus, the game’s challenge increases. Here’s the group: Kensai hero, Keldorn, Anomen, Edwin edited to human swashbuckler 8-mage, and Viconia edited to an archer. The genius Edwin schemed his way into being considered a member of the Thay. He has been found out and is hunted. After being stripped of her clerical powers, Viconia sought the comfort of a good elven bow rather than Shar. Jan is used until Edwin is effectively dualed. He’s then dumped and Viconia is picked up. Kensai will wield CF and Belm. Anomen wields FoA and Crom. Keldorn uses Carsomyr. Edwin uses SoM and shortbow. Viconia uses shortbow or crossbow. Edwin receives the stat values of Nalia rearranged appropriately for his dual class; Viconia’s stats are rearranged to better suit an archer, who does not need an 18 wisdom. This group has no thief cheese. Edwin spends all his thief points on open locks and find traps. He can’t backstab, and he can’t set traps. He’ll also never get Use Any Item or any other high level thief ability. There is only one mage, and this mage will spend some of his spell power trying to protect the kensai hero with Spirit Armor. He is further restricted by not being able to use the Robe of Vecna or the following spells: some possible positive requests for Wish and Limited Wish, Project Image, Simulcrum, Spook, Chromatic Orb, any spell to get results that I would not be allowed to get if a person (DM) was controlling the opposition, or any spell that would not be good role playing, such as using out of character knowledge. There is no druid and no cheesy Insect Plague. The fighters can not use Stone Skin or Iron Skin – the hero can not even use armor, bracers, or the usual helm. I have to deal with getting the proficiencies in flail for Anomen before he can wield FoA effectively. I think this group presents a more interesting challenge than the typical power group.

I typically recommend a mixture of good and evil characters; however, this can cause problems if you don’t use a mod (Weimar’s Ease of Use mod) to stop party conflict. Furthermore, if you allow your reputation to exceed 17, then the evil party members may leave. That’s easy to control by becoming the slayer to whack dragons and such (and if you don’t know what I mean, then you are not spoiled). I think that a person desperate to fulfill his goals would use the most capable help he could find; consequently, I don’t think this is bad roleplaying (unless your hero is a paladin, of course). He might even enjoy his control over the opposing aligned characters. Of course, you don’t have to mix good and evil characters to succeed.

I tried not to include anything that is a spoiler. If I make mention of an item or innate ability that you have never heard of, how is that going to spoil you unless I include more detail concerning how you obtain it, for instance? I also haven’t detailed items in this post. That’s been done elsewhere (http://gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/eq ... swords.php) for those who are interested.

You can beat this game with a stick. The number of characters, 1-6, which will have the least challenge in the overall game is arguable. I believe that once you hit ToB that fewer characters clearly make the game more challenging because of the many limits placed on further advancement in power with level. Challenge is nice. Too much challenge is frustrating for a person just trying to enjoy himself.

The NPCs in early SoA do not have the proficiencies to use the most desirable weapons in most cases. Of course, Keldorn comes ready for Carsomyr. In order to use every twinky weapon and have the necessary spells and summons, you will have a big party. Of course, you can choose to do things differently – not using everything the game offers.

Don’t choose your NPCs based primarily on attribute stats. You will have potions, equipments, and spells to shore up any weaknesses.

I also think that the game adjusts difficulty based on the number and types of characters you play – at least to an extent. A submod from the Tactics mod can make sure you face the most challenging random encounters.

(continues)
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rbeverjr
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Post by rbeverjr »

FIGHTER-TYPE
The most capable fighter for the majority of the game battles is the fighter-mage-thief (FMT), followed by the fighter-mage, then fighter-thief, and then ranger-cleric. Any of these classes can break encounters because of the cheese allowed by their spell casting background or the thief class.

If you play with a 5 or 6 member party, the fighter-illusionist will be nearly as powerful as the FMT; however, I feel that the thief high level abilities, traps, and backstabs make up for the loss of high level spells. The mage spells, HLAs, and the mage equipment (like Staff of the Magi for bringing down protections) allow this fighter to stand toe-to-toe with monsters throughout the game. These spells allow him diverse capabilities for the team and even powerful melee ability. However, he is not so tough without his magic. He requires some micromanagement too as you must deal with his spells, but he is fun. Other fighter-mage types (dual or multiclass) could be dumped into this category too after the fighter-illusionist. Many people favor the kensai-mage. I suggest dualling him at level 9 for SoA only, or 12 or 13 for ToB – 12 is probably best for maximum power throughout SoA and ToB.

Although the FMT is most powerful (particularly at high XP levels), the Fighter-Thief multiclass has advantages. The FT has better BAB, more HP, race advantages, more thief skill points, and faster advancement of the backstab modifier than the FMT. Upon further consideration, I just don’t feel that these advantages equal Stoneskin, Mirror Image, and the multitude of spells open to the FMT.

The cheese of the thief class includes the Use Any Item (UAI) high level ability (HLA), special high level ability traps, assassination HLA, regular traps, and backstabs. The backstabs alone can break encounters. I consider the thief to require the most micromanagement to play at his full potential. Thus, he is not my favorite because of the necessary work I must do to maximize his potential and because the game’s challenge is removed once that is done.

I prefer the multiclass FT over the kensai-thief dual class. In my opinion, the kensai-thief does not keep the powercurve as high throughout the game as the multiclass thieves. They will have a deadly backstab through kai if they connect (which will partially depend on when you dual the kensai). With UAI, you can eliminate all the drawbacks of being a kensai, but I propose that most kensai would not choose to wear armor even if they could. In fact, I think relatively few kensai would even consider leaving their devotion to melee weapons in the first place (to dual class).

Even a straight thief (or assassin or bounty hunter) can wickedly break encounters. (I seldom play thieves higher than L11, because they can so easily break encounters.)

Ranger-clerics (or less desirable fighter-clerics) make good fighters. Once again, they depend on their spells to be superior to the regular warriors (fighter, ranger, and paladin). The mage-fighter is simply more powerful in general. I will discuss the ranger-cleric below under divine casters.

The kensai is my next choice. He does the most damage of any fighter-type (excluding backstabs) because of bonus to hit and damage and the Kai ability. He does require a little extra effort though. He performs best while protected by Spirit Armor. The Amulet of Shield is an alternative. If opponents cast Dispel Magic a lot (seldom do), he will require more micromanagement, namely Spell Immunity Abjuration when the scout’s inspection of the enemy thinks it may be needed. Without spell armor, he tends to get damaged, but my kensai had AC -8 at level 10 while dual wielding – not including Protection from Evil or Improved Invis. That’s good enough for me. Kai is nice gravy. Maximum damage is worthwhile particularly when under Improved Haste or Whirlwind – or even nastier, when backstabbing for those broken kensai-thieves. Remember, monsters hit just as hard when they have 1 HP left as they do when they have 200 HP left! So, do as much damage as possible to take them out. You can bolster his longevity early in the game by sending in the character with the best AC first (after the summoned creatures of course). It’s too bad that he can’t use all the equipment in the game. Oh, and for those that don’t know, I think you are better off
Spoiler
with that ritual helm from the red dragon’s lair rather than an ioun stone. This is a helm that the kensai can equip and will protect him from crits. That means a lot! [END SPOILER]

The barbarian is my next choice. He is refreshingly free of micromanagement. Rage if the fight is tough or you want immunities and turn him loose. (Of course, optimum performance is never reached without magical buffs.) He is slightly superior to the Berserker in duels. Thus, berserker is my choice after barbarian. (Korgan is a berserker.) The berserker only seems clearly superior if you don’t know how to kill that elder orb before being imprisoned. You get more help from the barbarian’s immunity to level drain.

After the barbarian, I move to the paladin. For a hero, the cavalier is the best paladin. For a supporting character, the inquisitor is best. (Keldorn is an inquisitor.) I’d probably pick an undead slayer over a regular fighter.

Last, I would choose a regular fighter over a regular paladin, wizard slayer, or ranger. Sarevok in ToB is a regular fighter – well maybe not regular considering his special ability.

For my style of play (lazy but want a challenge), I like the kensai as hero with the barbarian as a very close second choice. If you can not afford the spell power to keep in Spirit Armor, then the choice is much harder. The kensai can protect himself OK with the shield amulet, but he will be a little weak on the AC. In this case, I may choose the barbarian simply because he is easier to play.
In the typical party, it is good to have at least 2 people that can engage in melee. You can supplement that with summons. Korgan can kick Keldorn’s butt and is the best melee NPC the game provides, with the possible exception of Sarevok. However, if I could choose just 1 NPC fighter, it would probably be Keldorn. He can quick cast True Seeing and double strength Dispel Magic. He comes with proficiencies for one of the uber weapons of the game, Carsomyr. And you can get Carsomyr with a tenth level party, without cheese (with a little luck), should you be so inclined. He also comes with a nice blade, can use Azuredge, and the amulet of power. Not only does he get the fighter HLAs, but he can Summon Devas too. When using unedited NPCs, I almost always take Keldorn.

Depending on the number of characters that you want to play, the Archer is delightful. He can do a lot of damage from behind the lines. For instance, he can successfully attack the mage that is protected by a horde of minions or the dragon that is surrounded by your own summoned creatures. His bonuses to hit and damage with the ranged weapon complement the Kensai’s bonuses well. Unfortunately, I generally find the game more relaxing when certain uber-weapons are being wielded - these uber-weapons are always melee weapons. Still, combine his weapon with Greater Death Blow and it becomes uber vs the mook swarms.

ARCANE CASTERS (WIZARD; SORCERER)
Depending on how much cheese you are willing to use, the arcane caster can totally dominate some of the most difficult encounters. If you restrict the cheese, then the game becomes more challenging. This class is probably the biggest powerhouse, although the brokenness of Use Any Item combined with Spiked Trap and Time Trap puts a little doubt on this conclusion.

Edwin is my first choice in arcane (provided that there is some other character to cast True Seeing). Otherwise, it is close whether I prefer a wizard or a sorcerer. Each class has its advantages to an expert. If you don’t really know how to use the spells effectively, you definitely should choose the wizard until you do learn. With a wizard, you get a lot of XP just from learning spells. Most importantly, you can choose spells that are most appropriate for an encounter (scouting and character knowledge should allow good choices) and your stage of play (early SoA, late SoA, and ToB). Compared to most wizards (not Edwin), sorcerers can cast their spells more each day; consequently, wizards may require more rest periods (I don’t use the cheesy Project Image or Simulcrum spells). More importantly sorcerers can cast each spell they know up to a certain number of times per rest period (dependent on spell and class levels). In other words, they do not have to select each day the number of times they will memorize a particular spell. This is particularly nice when you get the high level ability spells pooling with your level 9 spells. The sorcerer also does not have any attribute that gives him more spells in this game, as far as I know. This allows you to spread your points in a more beneficial way. Another cool thing is that you don’t have to depend on finding a scroll to learn a particular spell as a sorcerer. Still, while both wizard and sorcerer are good, I think that the wizard has a very slight edge, particularly Edwin.

I generally prefer a regular wizard over a kit (specialist) unless there are two wizards or the conjurer + inquisitor in the team. Each spell realm has its good spells, and I don’t think it is worthwhile cutting yourself short.

Edwin makes a terrific wizard. He gets more spells per level than a sorcerer! He has a good con and great intelligence. More importantly, he is a specialist with a twinky amulet that together grant him 3 extra spells per level (I think). I would easily choose him over any other NPC wizard and probably over a custom made wizard due to his amulet. However, I would not choose him if I had no other way of casting True Seeing.

(continues)
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Post by rbeverjr »

Tashia (from a mod) is a decent choice too. She is an elven sorceress. She is not as twinky as some NPCs from mods that tend toward the smelly cheese. She is rather capable though. You can romance her, and she is not as crazy as the other stock NPC romanceable girls. (I hate Viconia’s mind games, Jahiera’s domineering, and Aerial’s whining.) I don’t use Tashia’s figurine. I see that as unnecessary power.

Many people choose to dual or multiclass their primary caster. Remember, generally you don’t want to be without a competent mage for long in SoA for power play. Arcane power really rocks! You can only dual/multiclass with the wizard (not the sorcerer) without character editing. The class chosen first is typically fighter or thief. Under the mage heading, I assume this character will primarily be a spell caster. For powerplay, this dual class does have its advantages (more HP, better BAB, and better weapons), but it’s easier if you have to have a substitute mage until your dual-class mage can handle the arcane duties. If I was going to use the Staff of the Magi to beat up other wizard types, I would probably do the Kensai 9-mage. He could also generally expect to hit with Azuredge and do a little damage when his spell casting is not required in the battle. If I never wanted him to fight in melee (reasonable for larger parties in particular), then I would probably choose Archer 9-mage. If you just want him to be sturdier to withstand area effect spell damage the fighter 7-mage is the way to go. You should dual from a thief only if your goal is to obtain marginal ability to detect traps and open locks for the party. As a side benefit, the mage-thief will be able to use the shortbows. I dual from a thief at level 8 (as soon as I can) and concentrate all skill points on open locks and detect traps. I usually choose a swashbuckler because I am not going to be backstabbing with my caster anyway. The swashbuckler will get a bonus in AC and to hit and can specialize with the staff and shortbow. Alternatively, you can dual from level 11 swashbuckler and be able to set worthwhile traps. While the traps do not do horrendous damage, you can depend on them doing some, and they may interrupt spell casting. Whether you choose a dual class or single class mage will depend on your entire party make-up and what you will be doing early in the game.

I think the wizard may be the easiest class to solo the games. He definitely is a great force in both SoA and ToB. Although people have soloed the game without being an arcane caster, I advise most people not to leave home without one.

THIEF
At level 11, thieves can set a good basic trap, and they should have enough skill points to be good at opening locks, disarming traps, and setting traps. Unfortunately, you will have to use another thief if you care to disarm traps while this character duals progresses to L12 in his second class. Alternatively, you can dual at 8 at the start of the game, and be much faster on having your thief skills reactivated. Dualling at level 8, I concentrate solely on opening locks and disarming traps. You can dual the thief to mage or cleric depending on what your party needs. I usually choose a swashbuckler because I am not going to be backstabbing with my caster anyway. The swashbuckler will get a bonus in AC and to hit and can specialize with the staff. Backstabbing breaks encounters and takes a lot of work to do right. In fact, I seldom use a thief over L11; this restriction adds to the game’s challenge. Actually, I usually dual at L8.

If I wanted to break the game I would play a fighter-mage-thief or fighter-thief. A distant third choice is the kensai-thief (described under fighter-types). Multiclass mage-thief falls after that.

Single class thieves can also break the game, almost as easily as the multiclass. I would choose the assassin myself and cheerfully backstab for 7x damage. The cut on skill points is not such an issue when he is a single class thief. My second choice (perhaps a first choice in a particular team) is the bounty hunter. He has nice special traps. A very nasty ability is to be able to throw a trap that mazes the opponent. Yep, game breakers. Thieves are cheesy! UAI, particularly, and Assassination are ridiculous.

For some teams, you may want a swashbuckler. By giving up backstabbing, you have a fighter-thief (sort of). He will have excellent AC at the end. One of the old time masters obtained the maximum allowed AC with his swashbuckler, which generally means you only get hit on a crit.
Imoen is a useable thief. You should get plenty of equipment and potions to enhance her abilities. Potions of Master Thievery stack its effects, which is cheesy to me. Nalia is just not quite good enough. I would use Jan for a substitute thief if I was dualing my own thief. If I really wanted to break the game with thief abilities, the thief would be the hero rather than Jan.

DIVINE CASTERS (CLERIC; DRUID)
The druid has some spells that are overpowered. He has Call Woodland Beings. The nymph can heal your party and confuse your enemies. Insect Plague can make some difficult encounters easy. Later, the high level ability Summon Elemental gets you elemental princes that really deal out punishment to the enemies. This HLA is not actually broken, because the Planetar is always better to me and the Deva is often better for certain battles or circumstances. At any rate, Call Woodland Beings and Insect Plague are enough reason (if you choose to use this cheese) to keep Jaheira (the annoying domineering, insecure burden) around, at least until you get Celestial Fury. Insect Plague is very useful and unbalancing broken.

While the druid has a few spells that are great (Call Woodland Beings, Insect Plague/Creeping Doom, Iron Skins, Summon Elemental Prince, and Nature’s Beauty), the cleric has more great exclusive spells including: Animate Dead, Resist Fear, Sanctuary, Hold Person, Silence, Divine Power, Holy Smite, Restoration, Freedom of Movement, Protection from Evil (10 ft), and Righteous Magic. Furthermore, the cleric can turn undead; this really helps at high levels making some tough encounters easy. Additionally, a cleric can wear plate armor, and has better weapons to choose from than a druid. A cleric is easily better than a druid to me, but both can be useful. You can have both in this game as a ranger-cleric (either dual or multiclass). I don’t see a power gamer choosing a druid to play, because the better option is ranger-cleric.

This game, unlike AD&D, allows the multiclass and dual class ranger-cleric access to all druid and cleric spells. This is definitely the way to go for a powergamer’s choice in clerics. The multiclass ranger-cleric most definitely makes the best fighting cleric if that is what you want. The dual class (at level 7) would allow you much more spell strength throughout the game and hurry your access to Skeleton Warriors (L15 Animate Dead). In this case, I usually prefer the dual class character.

If you want to be less cheesy, you can always go the route of Berserker 7-cleric dual class or fighter-cleric multiclass. Personally, I feel that a mage-fighter will destroy a ranger-cleric; so, I don’t feel guilty about using the ranger-cleric.

Depending on your party make-up, you could want other combinations. For instance, I sometimes use the Swashbuckler 8-cleric dual class. Thus, this character is the team’s Swiss army knife. He can buff, heal, find traps, open locks, etc. This allows me to make other class selections for the team that I feel are more beneficial overall. The mage-cleric will have a ton of spells to choose from. Unfortunately, the mage-cleric is not particularly useful for combat until she has some choice spell combos (like Tensor’s Transformation with Righteous Might, etc.) to make her so.

The stock game gives you a choice of Anomen, Aerie, or Viconia. Any of these characters can make an acceptable cleric. Which is best for you, depends on the rest of your team. Viconia whines less than either of the other 2, but most importantly she has 65% magic resistance as a drow. She comes good with a sling; enhance her strength and she can make a back up melee person. As a pure cleric, her turning ability will increase quickly (and she will control the undead rather than making them run). Also you will get Skeleton Warriors more quickly. Anomen is probably better than Viconia or Aerie for fighting (unless Aerie buffs with arcane magic). If you want a fighter that can also patch people up after battle, he might be what you are looking for. Aerie eventually becomes the most powerful NPC cleric – at least in some ways. If you use that cheesy cloak of Vecna (I don’t), then Aerie is your best bet; she has a lot of spell power. Enhancing her intelligence and wisdom will gain you extra spell slots. If you need a backup mage, go with Aerie; otherwise, I tend to favor Anomen as he can act as a backup fighter. He will also get high level spells more quickly than Aerie and more of them. Aerie is slow on getting high level spells and slow on having good turning ability. In fact, I strongly prefer the cleric to be dual class like Anomen (though the ranger-cleric dual class is most powerful). I want this because I want the cleric to be a backup fighter, get Skeleton Warriors quickly, and have plenty of spell power. The dual class does this best. I think I like Anomen’s ability a little more than Viconia.

(Continues, see below, post #14)
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Rav
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Post by Rav »

Well put! A good read.
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Post by snoopyofour »

"One greater whirlwind with the Chaos blade of Haer D'lis should render you dead"

How do you figure? Besides the same from a barbarian with a powerful weapon would kill a f/t. Isn't Haer D'lis' sword just a regular short sword.

But yeah, I've played a fighter/thief all the way through and I was never disappointed by his abilities at taking down tough parties of only a few. Backstab combined with critical strike was one of my favorite combos. It was mostly just the constant getting pounded on in big melee fights. He was a really fun character and I know that they're really good I just like barbarians better. I liked them enough that I eventually figured out ways to beat every fight in the game with them so now I never worry about mages, not even in tactics because my strategies having had to change very much.
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Post by Raven_Song »

Personally I think your selling bards a little short.
Otherwise, a bard (including its kits) makes a relatively poor fighter, poor mage, and poor fighter-mage.
The point is it is not supposed to be any of these things, it is essentially a jack of all trades and master of none, so comparisons to pure classes are essentially futile.

A bard if played correctly can be a valuable addition to any team, and there are some rather nice mods that expand the class significantly.
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Post by rbeverjr »

SPOILER WARNING






[QUOTE=snoopyofour]"One greater whirlwind with the Chaos blade of Haer D'lis should render you dead"

How do you figure? Besides the same from a barbarian with a powerful weapon would kill a f/t. Isn't Haer D'lis' sword just a regular short sword.

Reply 1: The fighter-thief will either be protected with magic and/or resistant enough to physical damage to prevent you from killing him in a single round. The Chaos sword will drain your dex on each hit. Soon you will be at 0. Guess what that means...

But yeah, I've played a fighter/thief all the way through and I was never disappointed by his abilities at taking down tough parties of only a few. Backstab combined with critical strike was one of my favorite combos. It was mostly just the constant getting pounded on in big melee fights. He was a really fun character and I know that they're really good I just like barbarians better. I liked them enough that I eventually figured out ways to beat every fight in the game with them so now I never worry about mages, not even in tactics because my strategies having had to change very much.[/QUOTE]

Reply 2: You shouldn't have to run away with the fighter-thief. You can use the Staff of the Magi to go instantly invisible and kill them with the Staff of the Ram +6. Even if they are immune to backstab, using Jan's armor and bracers (hardiness too if you want), you can stand and duke it out with the best of them. Also, you would be expected to use other equipment and magical buffs to further improve your defense.

Personally, the fighter-thief is unbalancingly powerful to me, and I don't play it any more.

As you noticed from my post, I like barbarians too. They can dominate in this game. That doesn't mean they are the most powerful character. Really, they are not. However, I do consider the barbarian one of the most enjoyable to play because it is so easy No management of traps, spells, or backstabbing, just hack-n-slash.

Note Reply 1 in the box above.....
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rbeverjr
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Post by rbeverjr »

[QUOTE=Raven_Song]Personally I think your selling bards a little short.



The point is it is not supposed to be any of these things, it is essentially a jack of all trades and master of none, so comparisons to pure classes are essentially futile.

A bard if played correctly can be a valuable addition to any team.[/QUOTE]

Feel free to illuminate me. :) I don't claim to know it all. Why do you think bards are so great? How do you make them great? (That's the clincher. You may use tactics that I consider cheese and refuse to employ....)
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Post by Raven_Song »

I don't think that they are necessarily "great" in the sense of being super powerful, it is unlikely that they will ever be a favourite amongst the hordes of power gamers. That being said I think that a bard can carve him/herself a niche in a successful party, but only if played as a bard, as opposed to a fighter/mage.

I should probably make it clear that my approach to the game is purely from a role playing perspective, I play the game with characters/classes I enjoy, not those that game mechanics dictate will be the most succesful. I personally find such an approach stifling, it drains my enjoyment of games, and detracts from a sense of accomplishment. I mean which is more impressive "my super-generic-kensai mage single took out the Shadow Dragon", or in a slightly shocked tone "my jester just took out the Shadow Dragon?"

Why do I enjoy playing bards, in short the versatility, these characters can be employed in a variety of roles depending on weapon proficiencies/spell selections. Specific tactics, I'm afraid, aren't really my thing, far too power gamey, my style of play is too panic hysterically throughout every battle (keeping in character with my slightly insane jester).

However the BG2 NPC Useage guide over at Sorcerers Place is an invaluable source of information, the tactics section for Haer'Dalis could be applied to the majority of bards.
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Post by rbeverjr »

@ravensong
I commend you for playing characters you enjoy. That's what we should all do. The game allows you to succeed, even when soloing a bard. However, you said nothing that persuades me to change my position. I still do not recommend this class to a beginner. For the old hats, trying for a challenge, something different, or who just identify with bards, hey more power to you! Game on.

I look forward to someone describing how a bard can contribute more to a party than the more commonly selected classes. Also, I was actually hoping someone would come forward and say "monks are better than fighters and here's why." or address the many other bones of contentions that may be present in this expose on class selection.
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Post by Raven_Song »

Can I ask whay your post makes references to some of the NPC's and not others? Are we to assume that for example, by not including Mazzy in the disucssion of fighters you do not think she is worth the effort. Or that Jaheira is a better druid than Cernd?
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[QUOTE=Raven_Song]Can I ask whay your post makes references to some of the NPC's and not others? Are we to assume that for example, by not including Mazzy in the disucssion of fighters you do not think she is worth the effort. Or that Jaheira is a better druid than Cernd?[/QUOTE]

No don't make that assumption. I provided examples and some of my personal favorites. I hesitate to assign a class or even an NPC as better than the others, simply because it depends on a players preference as I stated at the very beginning. I did suggest that monks, druids, and bards are not the most effective classes. However, even in these cases, I am well aware that they can be effective characters when played well. It's all relative. And this suggest power-play, which you are adverse to. (I employ many self-restrictions in the game to make it more challenging, and these restrictions may bias my own opinions somewhat.)

Personally, I am convinced that Keldorn and Korgan are more effective than Mazzy. Why didn't they just make Mazzy an archer class? I would usually take Jaheira over Cernd because I want everyone but my arcane caster to be able to melee. I'm not a fan of the shape-shifting. Shortly into the game, my fighters will munch the shape-shifted forms. With Ironskins and a special spear, Jaheira can at least be a backup for melee.


SPOILER


One of the biggest plusses of keeping Jaheira around is the opportunity to get a ring of wizardy (powerplay). If you wanted to role play big time, why would you send your long time friend (Jaheira) away? (My answer is because she annoys me to no end! personal opinion)
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Post by Raven_Song »

No don't make that assumption. I provided examples and some of my personal favorites.
That's fine, I justs wondered, I only skim read your post. Sorry.
I probably would have done the same thing, although given that my approach to the game is so different, it would make some very strange reading.
Why didn't they just make Mazzy an archer class?


I think it's because she is supposed to be based upon a Truesword of Avoreen kit, a halfling holy warrior.


If you wanted to role play big time, why would you send your long time friend (Jaheira) away?
Hmm ... I have issues with Bioware deciding who my character would have travelled with after the events of the initial game (I would preffered not to have rescued them/escaped with them from the dungeon, but have been given the choice in-game - like with Edwin and Viccy.

Therefore I am willing to make exceptions to my role-playing approach, in this instance. However I usually get round as my character of choice is an insane Chaotic neutral half-elf jester. He has some rather strange ideas, like thinking Jaheira is capable of single handedly battle a horde of vampires. Unarmed. That usually solves the problem of me having to send her away.
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Post by rbeverjr »

MONK
If you want to play a powerful monk, then I suggest Neverwinter Nights. They provided plenty of cheese for the monk. In this game, a monk is underpowered early in the game. Even late in the game, I feel like the properly equipped fighter-type is more useful. At high levels, monks are useable, but I just don’t recommend them.

The Monk’s greatest strength is his magic resistance. A properly equipped hero will have high magic resistance any way, but having a monk along will provide another team member with high magic resistance. They also have several immunities which are nice to have sometimes.

After getting the Quivering Palm special ability, the monk can be particularly dangerous against many of the major bosses in SoA, but not often in ToB. Quivering Palm can only be used once/rest period, I think. It is not subject to Magic Resistance but can be saved against. Still, the saves of many creatures in SoA are not that great, and if you can get Doom and/or Greater Malison on the creatures, even better. Many people have slain several dragons in SoA with Quivering Palm. I must admit that is nice, but high level mages can also kill dragons, even when those dragons have very good saves. The monk can also use Stunning Blow, which is OK, but it gets a save too and some creatures can not be stunned. Don’t expect any ability that allows a save to work very often against the major threats in ToB.

My complaint concerning monks is a lack of HP, AC, and THACO early in the game when I face many of the games toughest challenges. At higher levels, his AC and THACO become tolerable. Still, the uber-weapons available, particularly to dual wielders, are very nice. In order to have a character using his fists, will you give up a character that could be wielding Celestial Fury, Flail of Ages, Carsomyr, etc.?

The monk can not be Hasted (nor Improved Hasted, I assume). Improved Haste can give dual wielders a maximum of 9 attacks/round, and lasts much longer than Whirlwind.
So, in summary, the monk can be very effective in some parties in SoA; however, I think fighters are generally more effective when considering all the hours played in SoA and ToB. It’s not that I think the monk is a bad character; it’s just that I think other fighter-types offer more to a team.


BARDS
From my initial experiment, it seems that the bonuses from a bard’s song only lasts while he is singing. In AD&D, the effect of the song lasts longer than the song itself. Thus you could sing a round or 2 and then do other things as needed with the effects of the song lasting on. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong because I have little experience with bards in BG2. I personally don’t believe that the benefits of the bard song (or enhanced bard song) are worth a spot on my team if the benefits last only as long as the bard sings. Otherwise, a bard (including its kits) makes a relatively poor fighter, poor mage, and poor fighter-mage. I don’t recommend them. On the other hand, I have heard that the song of a jester can confuse a mighty demon. I have no personal experience to verify that though.

PS
Magic really helps protect the fighter. Even the low level spell, Mirror Image, helps and Stone Skin is really nice. Also, being able to cast spells on the adversaries before engaging in melee really helps. However, there are many times that I wish I did not have to deal with the spells – the barbarian is so simple to play. After getting the Cloak of the Sewers and particularly after the Ring of Gaxx, the barbarian is not such a burden because he can heal himself. But a fighter-mage is generally more effective in battle. A kensai is also a joy in that he almost never misses and generally hits first in the round doing a ton of damage. He is fairly durable when protected with Spirit Armor, but once again the fighter-mage is more effective. Introducing the thief class into the fighter-mage mix for FMT is very effective later in the game. The thief class fulfills a team need for trap detecting and opening locks. The thief ability also allows him to backstab and takeout dangerous opponents before the battle. (Unfortunately, effective use of backstabbing can be tedious.) Additionally, Spiked Traps are some of the most effective weapons. Although the mage spells can make the FM and FMT super, sometimes these spells are removed, such as SPOILER

when fighting beholders, entering anti-magic zones in Watcher’s Keep, and by bosses in ToB that Dispel Magic.

END SPOILER Without magic, the FM and FMT are much worse than the fighters.
Sometimes, magical area of effect spells are just more effective overall than a thief backstabbing. Remember, while backstabbing is a very effective tool, other tools are sometimes more appropriate.

Some of my class descriptions have been slightly altered in this update (June 27, 2006). I also presented in the prelude (first post) some of my recommendations for power teams, as well as a team for those who want more challenge.

Please note that while some of this information can be considered generally accepted (consensus), other information is personal choice based on my style of play and the restrictions that I play by.

I had hoped that this thread would have renewed interest in debating the efficiency of one class over another. Such debates sometimes brings out tactics and considerations that not everyone knows about. So, if you would like to add to this thread, I encourage you to do so.

Edit <Monk section revised as requested>
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Post by Berethor »

Actualy, Monks are quite powerful. For one, they will get 4 attacks per round eventually, a 1-hit-KO move, something like 70% MR, and +4 fists. They have decent Stamina, and their AC improves with levels. Plus, they have Poison Immunity, Immunity to Charm, Immune to Slow/Haste(Not that good), and Immunity to disease. I highly reccommend the Monk.

I never really liked Bards. IMO, the only one worth using is the Skald. They are below-average spellcasters, you can't attack while in Bard song, PickPocket is not that great, and they have low Stamina. Not to mention that unless they are not wearing armor or are wearing Elven Chain, they can't cast spells.
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Post by JonIrenicus »

[QUOTE=Berethor]Actualy, Monks are quite powerful. For one, they will get 4 attacks per round eventually, a 1-hit-KO move, something like 70% MR, and +4 fists. They have decent Stamina, and their AC improves with levels. Plus, they have Poison Immunity, Immunity to Charm, Immune to Slow/Haste(Not that good), and Immunity to disease. I highly reccommend the Monk.[/QUOTE]


Also with the right mod, monks have shadowless kick and all those cool powers. And anyone who fought baltzy knows he is quite a force to be reckoned with.
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Post by rbeverjr »

[QUOTE=Berethor]Actualy, Monks are quite powerful. For one, they will get 4 attacks per round eventually, a 1-hit-KO move, something like 70% MR, and +4 fists. They have decent Stamina, and their AC improves with levels. Plus, they have Poison Immunity, Immunity to Charm, Immune to Slow/Haste(Not that good), and Immunity to disease. I highly reccommend the Monk.[/QUOTE]

MR is nice - the nicest benefit of being a monk. It's not hard to have a monk with 100% MR. Your hero can often get high MR even being a fighter, but in a team, it's nice if everyone has high MR.

Eventually, the monk's fists do a lot of damage. However, I think some of the uber weapons allow better damage/effects than the monk's fists. How often does that death punch (quivering palm) work vs the dragons and other tough opponents in SoA and ToB?

The immunities are nice but not that big of deal except that you can't be hasted - and I assume that also applies to Improved Haste. A dual wielding fighter with Improved Haste can have up to 9 attacks/round and the duration is much longer than Whirlwind. Consequently, I think the damage output can easily be more with a fighter-type.

Early on, it seems to me that the AC of the monk is bad. Eventually, it becomes OK, but what about the majority of the game? The HP of a monk is not so good relative to a fighter either. The role of the monk should not be melee like a tank (fighter). It's not that way in DnD 3.5 pen and paper games. I personally don't think it is that way in BG2 either.

I haven't played with monks very much; so, I humbly invite you to provide evidence that the monk is superior to the fighter. Given that the monk should be more resistant to magic than the typical fighter, but how does he compare when it comes to giving and taking damage? What does the monk look like compared with a fighter at Level 10, L15, or L30 (HP, THACO, average damage/round, AC)?
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Post by Berethor »

[QUOTE=rbeverjr]MR is nice - the nicest benefit of being a monk. It's not hard to have a monk with 100% MR. Your hero can often get high MR even being a fighter, but in a team, it's nice if everyone has high MR.

Eventually, the monk's fists do a lot of damage. However, I think some of the uber weapons allow better damage/effects than the monk's fists. How often does that death punch (quivering palm) work vs the dragons and other tough opponents in SoA and ToB?

The immunities are nice but not that big of deal except that you can't be hasted - and I assume that also applies to Improved Haste. A dual wielding fighter with Improved Haste can have up to 9 attacks/round and the duration is much longer than Whirlwind. Consequently, I think the damage output can easily be more with a fighter-type.

Early on, it seems to me that the AC of the monk is bad. Eventually, it becomes OK, but what about the majority of the game? The HP of a monk is not so good relative to a fighter either. The role of the monk should not be melee like a tank (fighter). It's not that way in DnD 3.5 pen and paper games. I personally don't think it is that way in BG2 either.

I haven't played with monks very much; so, I humbly invite you to provide evidence that the monk is superior to the fighter. Given that the monk should be more resistant to magic than the typical fighter, but how does he compare when it comes to giving and taking damage? What does the monk look like compared with a fighter at Level 10, L15, or L30 (HP, THACO, average damage/round, AC)?[/QUOTE]

I will tell you this, Monks ARE superior to any Single-Class Fighter IMO. They start out weaker, but they gain so many Immunities, Hand-to-Hand bonuses, and Abilities. The Quivering Palm alone owns Fighters. If the enemy doesn't make the save, then they're dead. The way this can work against Dragons is to have a Mage cast Greater Malison then use Quivering Palm. Or just use QP and hope to get lucky. If you used Greater Malison, it will hit about 50% of the time.

IMO, the only things fighters have over Monks is Weapon Specialization and Armor Class. Also, the Monk can use wands, a Fighter can't. At the end of the game, the Monk will have something like 1d20 +4 fists and really low Thac0 and AC. Damage would get even higher if he had the Gauntlets of Crushing equipped (which any good Monk player should). Oh, and the Monks MR just pwns. I don't think it is possible for a Fighter to get to 100% MR, but for a Monk it is easy.

You're right, the Immunities are not that good, especially the Immunity to Haste, but at least he has them. And we're comparing Fighters vs. Monks, not Fighter/Mages vs. Monks, so a Fighter with Improved Haste doesn't really count unless he used Bracers of Blinding Strike. Greater Whirlwind counts, but don't forget that a Monk gets that too.

By the End of TOB, in one round without any speed things on any characters or Critical Hits, A monk will get an average 2 more attacks than the Fighter and inflict 10-20 more damage. I'm not sure about how the Monk gains AC/Thac0 per level, maybe ask another Monk player. I know that if you have a Dexterity of 18, you will start with 6 AC, better than a fighter without Armor, but when a Fighter puts on Armor, his AC is superior. It doesn't matter so much in the beginning because not many enemies are powerful. I believe that the Monk shares the same 1d10 health gain per-level.

I might be wrong about some of this, but I think I am generally correct. Then again, maybe not. Though the Fighter/Mage or Fighter/Thief etc. are better than Monks, but Monks are better than Single-Class Fighters.

And you're comment on D&D...So true. Monks are not only super Kung-Fu warrors capable of taking Dragons down in one hit, he should be able to meditate and cast Cleric spells. He should have a spell where he summons Budha :p .
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Post by rbeverjr »

[QUOTE=Berethor]I will tell you this, Monks ARE superior to any Single-Class Fighter IMO. They start out weaker, but they gain so many Immunities, Hand-to-Hand bonuses, and Abilities. The Quivering Palm alone owns Fighters. If the enemy doesn't make the save, then they're dead. The way this can work against Dragons is to have a Mage cast Greater Malison then use Quivering Palm. Or just use QP and hope to get lucky. If you used Greater Malison, it will hit about 50% of the time. [/QUOTE]

So, you are saying that Quivering Palm is not subject to magic resistance? How many quivering palms do you get per day? If it allows a save, I just don't think it will be that useful in ToB. Also, I expect that a barbarian would kill the monk almost 95% of the time towards the end of SoA, assuming this special ability is not subject to MR (Rolling a 1 is an automatic failure.)

[QUOTE=Berethor]At the end of the game, the Monk will have something like 1d20 +4 fists and really low Thac0 and AC. Damage would get even higher if he had the Gauntlets of Crushing equipped (which any good Monk player should). [/QUOTE]
I think Celestial Fury is generally better when the foes can be stunned. That will happed probably as often as your quivering palm will work, and usually results in the same conclusion - death for the foe. Carsomyr can be better on occassion. The Flail of Ages +5 is always better. Crom can sometimes be better. Etc. If I understand correctly, the gauntlets will give you a combined +8 to hit (fighters should almost always hit anyway), but the fist is still a +4 weapon. The extra +4 damage provided by the gauntlets is nice, but effects like slow from FoA are nicer.

[QUOTE=Berethor]Oh, and the Monks MR just pwns. I don't think it is possible for a Fighter to get to 100% MR, but for a Monk it is easy. [/QUOTE]
Someone else posted some info on a barbarian - At beginning of ToB you should be over lev. 20 with the following stats:
Str. 22/Con. 21, around 240 hp, 75% magic res. (self. tear [10], Gaxx [10], Seldarine [10], Human skin [20], Cloak of Balduran [25]), over 40% physical damage res. (natural [20]/DoE [20]/belt inertial barrier [25, missile only]), 95% res. to fire/elect. + 45% to cold (pride tear [20 cold, fire, electrical], boots of grounding [50 electricity], ring fire control [50 fire], Dragon helm [25 fire, cold, electrical]), immune to poison and disease [ring of Gaxx], and 50% res. to magical dmg [belt of inertial barrier].

As you advance in ToB, you can get two more points in Str., 5% res. to magic and fire, extra 10 hp and after the 4th Baalspawn power (evil answer) 25% dmg res.!!! At this point your stats are: Str. 24, Con. 22 (23 with Axe of the Unyielding), around 280 hp!, almost 80% physical dmg res, 90% magic res., elemental resistant ( 100% fire, 95% elec., 45% cold), immune to poison, 50% res. to magical dmg and regenerating at a high rate. If you add on Hardiness you will become almost immune to physical dmg [95% at level 32], and with Regeneration spell that you can get as 2nd Baalspawn power (evil answer) you will regenerating like crazy. You also have the barbarian rage (doesn't protect from imprisonment, but raise Str/Con by 4 and you don't get fatigued).

Of course, the hero can have high MR. However, I do appreciate that the monk's MR is inherent, which allows others in the team to benefit from equipment.

[QUOTE=Berethor]And we're comparing Fighters vs. Monks, not Fighter/Mages vs. Monks, so a Fighter with Improved Haste doesn't really count unless he used Bracers of Blinding Strike. Greater Whirlwind counts, but don't forget that a Monk gets that too.[/QUOTE]
Of course, Improved Haste counts unless you are playing solo. And as previously stated Improved Haste can provide 9 attacks/rd for a long time compared to whirlwinds.

[QUOTE=Berethor]By the End of TOB, in one round without any speed things on any characters or Critical Hits, A monk will get an average 2 more attacks than the Fighter and inflict 10-20 more damage. I'm not sure about how the Monk gains AC/Thac0 per level, maybe ask another Monk player. I know that if you have a Dexterity of 18, you will start with 6 AC, better than a fighter without Armor, but when a Fighter puts on Armor, his AC is superior. It doesn't matter so much in the beginning because not many enemies are powerful. I believe that the Monk shares the same 1d10 health gain per-level.[/QUOTE]
If the fight is at all hard, I can expect Haste at least from team mage - Improved Haste if the scout says it will be tough. Unless you know the comparative THACO of monk vs fighter and specify target AC and know rate of attack for each, then your claim of 10-20 more damage is just a claim. :) I think that in BG2 monks get d8, fighters get d10, and barbarians get d12. I also think that the monk has the THACO progression of the cleric. (I don't have time to verify these data now.)

It does matter to me how much a party member can contribute to the team at all stages of the game. I generally collect my preferred equipment (including Carsomyr) before going on the rescue mission. If the party member can't contribute early, I don't want him.
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Post by Berethor »

Mostly true, but I thought we were talking about Fighters/Monks, not Barbarians/Fighters/Monks :p :rolleyes: . ANYways about the CF's stun..In case you didn't know, the Monk has an ability called Stunning Blow. It's not as useful as the CF, but still good. And don't forget, the Monk can use the CF and some other weapons you mentioned too. And QP is not affected by MR. Granted, most enemies in TOB will make the save unless they are Malisoned, but if you get it on a boss like Abazigal or maybe Demogorgon you can pat yourself on the back and have yourself a good laugh. And you only get 1 QP per day, but the reason is obvious.

And what I was saying was that we are comparing Fighters who can't cast spells, and therefore the Fighter wouldn't be able to cast Improved Haste on himself without Bracers of Blinding Strike, and again, the Monk can do the same.

I don't think I was too off about the damage per round, assuming the Monk and Fighter both hit with all attacks. And you can consider that good for a Fighter, as it takes the Monk 2 more hits to do between 10-20 damage more.
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