Killing spell casters and monsters with spell ability

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:31 am

Edit 3

How to kill a spell caster or spell casting monster

The techniques that are effective against a spell caster or spell casting monster will vary with the adversaries. No single technique will be best for all occasions. Ideas for these strategies come from other people on this or other internet forums and my own experience. I have tried to limit depending on what the manual says for making these tactics because the manual is often wrong. BG2 also does not follow the rules of DnD v2 close enough for that to provide guidance either. XyX has provided more detail on the spells as implemented in BG2. Thanks to Lark for this link and XyX for his work: http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm.

Please, you game experts, add your tactics and correct errors!

STANDARD TACTICS (Beware, these strategies may contain spoiler information!)

Usual humanoid caster:
• Often you can backstab the caster to death. It’s a nice feeling to see the major threat go up in chunks. Some monsters can see the invisible and many monsters will cast True Seeing. The Cloak of Nondetection may help. I’ve heard that it does its job when combined with an item granting invisibility but not spells. I have not tested this.
• If your party is mostly fighters, have them attack the spell caster immediately. If their favorite weapon is a ranged weapon or they are fast (Hasted, boots of speed, monk, or barbarian), then this strategy works better. It is sometimes possible to kill the caster before he gets his spells going. I have killed liches several times with the first attack of Azuredge just by attacking quickly. As long as the mage does not put up protection from magical weapons and you have a weapon that does elemental damage (for example, the Flail of Ages or Crom Faeyr), you will damage through his stone skin, usually preventing his casting (provided you injure him before his spell is cast in the round). Thus, you should win.
• If you are late and the foe puts up protections like Protection from Magic Weapons, then have your caster Breach the defenses. Sometimes (depending on the defenses) you can defeat creatures just by using normal weapons, but Breach is more dependable. Other members can do so too using the Wand of Spell Striking from the Throne of Bhaal. You don’t have to worry with the creature’s magic resistance, Spell Trap, Spell Turning, etc. stopping Breach, because they won’t. Only the monster’s spell immunity or Spell Shield stops Breach. For instance, Liches are immune to all level 5 spells and lower including Breach. (L3 Spell Thrust can get rid of Spell Shield.) I’ve been told that scrolls and items will work even when the target is invisible (I’ve not tested this), but if you are casting a targeted spell from memory, then the target must be visible (this is so). In this case, you will need True Seeing (if target is using Mislead) or a lesser spell (such as Oracle, Detect Illusions, or Detect Invisibility) to counter lesser spells. True Seeing is the best spell because it will make sure that illusions and invisibility are dispelled for a long duration. Alternatively, the Staff of the Magi or the bug fixed Carsomyr (use Weapons Mod) can Dispel protections. It will Dispel automatically on a successful hit. It does not compare caster levels as the spell does. It will not Dispel Spell Immunity from Abjurations, but it will dispel Stoneskin even if the foe is protected by Spell Immunity Abjuration. These weapons make great mage killers.
• Implosion (high level ability) does a lot of damage and is not subject to magic resistance.
• A single caster is easy meat to a high level arcane caster (see Dragon topic).
• See Lich topic for more points that may apply.

Several humanoid casters:
• Insect Plague is my first choice when not considering high level abilities. It works very well when you are milking XP from the cowled wizard enforcers. Magic Resistance of the target can make it fail if your luck is bad; just cast it again. This spell can even work on Draconis (a ToB dragon) who has a MR of 55%.
• Silence can work. Still, it is subject to a save and MR and can be overcome with vocalize. The spell should be more successful against priests (they don’t know Vocalize), but not drow priestesses (65% MR).
• Use area of effect damaging spells. Your best choice is Storm of Vengeance or Dragon’s Breath (high level abilities). Other than high level abilities, Abi-Dalzim’s Horrid Wilting or Firestorm is the best spell for this area damage tactic. Wilting is party friendly. Firestorm is not unless your party is resistant to flame. Choose a spell other than Firestorm if target is immunity to fire. Other area of effect spells that do damage can work well (such as Fireball, Holy Smite, Skull Trap, Ice Storm, or Cone of Cold). Just make sure you don’t choose a form of damage that the targets are immune to. For instance, a red dragon is never harmed by fire. Fireball is useful, when your foes aren’t resistant, because you can make your tanks resistant to fire. Thus, the area effect spell becomes party-friendly. Holy Smite does some damage, is party friendly provided that your party is not evil, and can blind targets for a round. Skull Trap is not friendly. At high levels, it will do more damage than fireballs and relatively few creatures are resistant to the magical damage; however, it is easy to bomb your own party members if you aren’t careful. Ice Storm doesn’t do a lot of damage, but allows no save and sticks around for 4 rounds. Cone of Cold works well for fighter-mages that are at the head of the party. Just blast the pack of enemy swarming toward you and then engage. With luck these spells can interrupt the foes’ spell casting. Furthermore, even if they are doing little damage, many casters have little HP. I sometimes use Cloudkill. It does not do a lot of damage, but provides a continuing chance to interrupt spells. Furthermore, you can send in multiple Cloudkills (I suggest using the wand). Avoiding cheese, I do this only if I am in the only exit from the space occupied by the Cloudkill, I’ve Webbed the targets, or I’ve engaged the targets in melee. Otherwise, the AI is not smart enough to move the targets out of the area, which is an exploit in my opinion. If the target has magic resistance, then you need to be lucky, have several casters (hopefully the MR roll will fail against one of your bombs), or use spells like Sunfire, Firestorm, or Dragons Breath. If they put up a Globe of Invulnerability, you must either bring it down or use L5+ spells. The tactics mod has made some mages resistant to magic damage.
• Silence can work. Still, it is subject to a save and MR and can be overcome with vocalize. May work better vs priests, but not drow priestesses (65% MR).
• After the foes have cast protections and buffs, Dispel Magic with an Inquisitor before engaging in melee.
• Note: I have used these tactics successfully against the slaver lords in the temple area. And in this combat, Koshi and Ketta are just as dangerous as the Chaos casters.

Lowly “casters” like Mindflayers and Umberhulks:
• Use the Cloudkill wand or Death Spell, as they kill these specific monsters sometimes. These spells can definitely thin the herd.
• Skeleton Warriors can handle Mindflayers. Aerial Servants and Invisible Stalkers are alternatives.
• Ultraillithids are really best handled by Mordenkainen’s swords, but several Skeleton Warriors can get the job done.
• Improved Invisible fighters can chop both Mindflayers and Ultraillithids up, particularly while using some form of immunity (Chaotic Commands, Greenstone Amulet, Psion’s Balde +5, or Brine Potions).
• Archers are very nice vs Mindflayers and Ultraillithids, particularly with the Greater Deathblow high level ability.

Beholders:
• Attack quickly with the first person who attacks being one who has high magic resistance (or at least has very good saves).
• Use Skeleton Warriors or Mordenkainen’s Swords.
• Say to heck with the depletion of resources and the grind of cleaning them out and buy the Shield of Balduran, my favorite tactic. Excuse the cheese.
• Elder orbs will cast Imprisonment. So, have a defense to that (Berserker’s rage, Spell Immunity Abjuration, Protection from Magic scroll, or get lucky).
• Another cheese method is for the Cleric to cast Blade Barrier while under Sanctuary and chop them up.
• Air Elementals help (preferably hasted). Fire elementals do OK, too.
• If you can stick them with 2-3 Webs and fill the space with 1 or 2 Cloud Kills, that works well.
• Spell Turning works well.
• Glitterdust sometimes works well against them, too

Liches:
• The easiest way to kill them is for a high level cleric to Turn them.
• Ruby Ray of Reversal followed by Khelden’s Warding Whip can strip away a Liches’ protections, but he may add more. I never bother. A better solution is to attack with the Staff of the Magi or Carsomyr. Or you can run away and return after his defensive spells have gone. I don’t like that idea personally. It’s not heroic and how could the character know that the lich would still be there when they returned? If you have good saves and some HP you will survive to kill him by just using Azuredge. I have killed both the Shade lich and the Elemental lich like this.
• Daystar’s Sunray can toast them (I’ve done that too).
• Mace of Disruption 2 is another SoA undead slayer and the only one mentioned under this heading that can kill a demilich.
• You can also send in Skeleton Warriors one at a time to kill liches. Against the Elemental Lich, the first Skeleton Warrior dies from Death Spell and the third one kills the lich.
• Mordenkainen’s Sword works similarly to the Skeleton Warriors and seems no more effective.
• If you have Shapechange, the Iron Golem alone is sufficient to kill the Elemental Lich.
• Of course, Devas and Planetars can kill liches easily.

MORE COMMENTS ON PAGE 2

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:23 am

I'd like to contribute the following:

Several spells will defend against Breach including: Spell Immunity (Abjuration), a L5 spell which lasts 3 rds +1 rd/level; Spell Shield, a L5 spell which defends against one spell; Spell Deflection, a L6 spell which lasts 3 rds/level or until 10 levels of spells has been deflected; Spell Turning, a L7 spell which lasts 3 rds/level or until 12 levels of spells has been deflected; and Spell Trap, a L9 spell which lasts 1 rd/level and is the personal favorite of most liches.

The only spell that protects against Breach is Spell Shield.
Improved Invisibility will stop Breach as well, as it will prevent spells from beeing directly targeted at you. Please note that Improved Invisibility will only stop directly targeted spells cast from a spellbook, spells coming from items (such as scrolls, for example) and spells fired from a (Chain-)Contingency pass directly through Improved Invisibility.

Best regards,
Lark

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:50 pm

Thanks Lark, despite the spell descriptions, Lark seems to be right. I tested Spell Turning, Spell Immunity Abjuration, and Spell Trap. None of these protect against Breach. I will edit my original post to reflect this. If anyone else finds an error or can propose efficient mage killing tactics please do.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:22 am

Question

I have read in several threads that if Minsc is in Berserker mode he is immune to Imprisonment. I am running no mods, and ToB is installed. I had beat Kangaxx on my first game and decided on my next game to try Minsc up front. So Minsc tripped the encounter and stood toe to toe with him. I used Daystar and he (as a lich) was toast. I berserked Minsc and the demilich then appeared. As soon as he was formed, Minsc took a swing with Lilacor and then "poof" he was gone! What happened? Also read somewhere that Mord's Sword was immune to it and they went poof as well?

My favorite spell for neutralizing mages other than Insect Plague/Creeping Doom is Cloudkill/Acid Fog. Since they are 5/6th level Globe of Invulnerability doesn't stop them and since they are area and not targeted usually get past spell turning types of spells. Unless totally magic resistant, a spell like cloud kill last long enough to do some serious damage if not outright kill them.

This next part might be cheese but if I get the chance to do so, I like to throw against a mage from just outside their sight. I can catch them in the area and it seems most Spell Triggers, etc. are set to go off on "see enemy" so they don't activate.

An added thought about using Insect Plague/Creeping Doom. I like to throw them against a mage's associate just in case the mage has a spell going that might reflect it back on me. Likewise, the associate (fighter types work real well), probably has far worse "spell saving throws" (if those apply to those spells). Once the spell hits an enemy ot automatically spreads to the rest of them. This by-passes the Spell Turning/Reflection the mage might have going.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:57 pm

First of all, I'd like to recommend the [url="http://members.chello.nl/~j.vanthull/BG2SR/Main.htm"]Spells Reference[/url] by Xyx. It is an exellent source of information on spells in BGII. It covers most of the points mentioned here and explains them very thoroughly.

Nonetheless, some comments by my side:

I have read in several threads that if Minsc is in Berserker mode he is immune to Imprisonment. [...]Also read somewhere that Mord's Sword was immune to it and they went poof as well?

Only the Berserker's Enrage grants immunity to Imprisonment. Neither the Barbarian's Rage, nor Minsc's Berserk ability protects against this spell. All of them will protect against Maze.
Mordekainen's Swords are only immuned to (psionic) Maze, but not to Imprisonment.

An added thought about using Insect Plague/Creeping Doom. I like to throw them against a mage's associate just in case the mage has a spell going that might reflect it back on me.

Insect Plague and Creeping Doom are not affected by any kind of spell turning, since they are area spells. Some suggestions: If the enemy mage just cast Mislead, aim at the Mislead clone instead, the insects will spread from there. Or cast the Insect Plague at a party member and let it run up to the enemy, after all, the spell is party friendly.

Best regards,
Lark.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:07 pm

Thanks Lark

Appreciate the answers. How (or when) does Minsc get Berserker's Enrage? Are people dual classing him over to berserker? Am I missing something?

Good ideas about Insect Plague, always looking for a new twist. I am not sure what caused it but I did have one occasion where the spell rebounded back on Jaheira and subsequently my party. Forgot who I was facing but that is why I went to throwing at the associate instead of the mage.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:31 pm

How (or when) does Minsc get Berserker's Enrage? Are people dual classing him over to berserker? Am I missing something?

Maybe someone just mixed something up.

I am not sure what caused it but I did have one occasion where the spell rebounded back on Jaheira and subsequently my party.

Strange, but I'll test it again.

Best regards,
Lark.

DaemonJ · Post by **DaemonJ** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:24 pm

[QUOTE=Philos]Good ideas about Insect Plague, always looking for a new twist. I am not sure what caused it but I did have one occasion where the spell rebounded back on Jaheira and subsequently my party. Forgot who I was facing but that is why I went to throwing at the associate instead of the mage.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps Jaheira was charmed or otherwise "out" of the party at that time?

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:29 am

Thanks again Lark. I remember Xyx. He's definitely a guy to listen to, and I greatly appreciate his site link.

Concerning Cloudkill: There's a lot of cheese involved with Cloudkill. I consider it an exploit of stupid AI. Creatures just stay in an area and die without moving? In this game, they do. You can Lower Resistance on the monster before casting, cast it while out of sight of the monster, cast it and close the door, etc. I usually reserve Cloudkill for Umberhulks myself (and they do "cast" confusion). (Use the wand and save the spell slots.) I have ocassionally used it in combination with Skeleton Warriors or my own fighters, as it makes since to me that the opponents may not run from a slowly killing acid vapor when faced with being run through the back with a sword. Still, I should include it on my Cheese list.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:34 am

Wish I could remember where!?!

I imagine that would probably explain it all. I am sure Jaheira wasn't charmed, because the spell hit her first and she wouldn't target herself if charmed. She was also definitely in the party because it spread from her to the others. Good thoughts, but oh well.

Just too far back to recall, perhaps even in my first game. I have been doing the associate tactic with insect plague to disable the mage for quite a while. I may have to take a game I have saved in the early stages and keep trying that tactic to see where it happened. May have been a just a hiccup.

EDIT: rbeverjr you must have posted while I was writing the above. Concur, you should add the out of sight casting of Cloudkill to your cheese list. But Cloudkill can be used in non-cheese fashion to disable mages/spellcasters. In some encounters the "enemy" is somewhat confined space wise, so by hitting the limited area they have to move around in it cramps their style. Also in larger areas it at least keeps them occupied moving around to get out of it. The Cloudkill wand has a larger cheese factor. It "appears" that it by-passes magic resistence. I used the spell Cloudkill on 2 different dragons and as expected it only hurt them on a few of the rounds it was in effect. But when I used the wand it hurt them "every" round. But I like carrying the wand so that I don't have to memorize the spell.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:09 am

Quote:
I am not sure what caused it but I did have one occasion where the spell rebounded back on Jaheira and subsequently my party.

Strange, but I'll test it again.

I did test it again, and no, insect spells are not affected by spell reflection, in any way.

Lark.

Correction: Summon Insects is a non-area spell, and thus subject to Spell Turning .

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:49 am

Hmmm?

Thanks for checking Lark. So that rules that out. I guess it was either some other effect or spell. Perhaps it was just a one time hiccup. I do not have any mods (or patches for that matter) installed, could that be the difference maybe? Well, I will try to duplicate it if I can, or at least keep an eye out for it.

Nimiety · Post by **Nimiety** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:20 pm

I have had the insect plague spell come back and get me too... I think it's one of the higher level spell turning type-spells that turns it around. I've gotten into the habit of not targeting the one I want, but their nearby associate to insure I get them (a nice doom or two helps).
N...

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:40 pm

Some more comments:

You usually won't need to remove enemy spell protections. Just employ one of the following methods:
a)Whack the enemy mage. If he puts up combat protections, cast Breach, then whack the mage. Breach ignores spell protections. If he moreover casts Spell Shield, just cast Breach twice, then proceed to whack him. Spell Shield is the only Spell that stops Breach. It stops only one casting of a spell protection removal spell or Breach. If he is protected by Improved Invisibility, just cast Breach via the Wand of Spell Striking. Spells cast by items ignore Improved Invisibility.
b)Cast Area spells. Spell protections don't protect against area spells. If he is resistant to magic, cast Lower Resistance, it ignores spell protections. If he is protected by Improved Invisibility, cast Pierce Magic via the Wand of Spell Striking to lower his resistance.

The most dependable method of neutralizing a mage is to go in with True Seeing (counters Mislead) and hit him with Spell Strike after he puts up his protections. The fighters can then effectively cut him down.

Spell Strike does nothing to remove combat protections (such as Stone Skin and PfMW), it does only remove spell protections.

After Spell Strike, you can also use your Spell Trigger of 3 Lower Resistances to make the enemy mage subject to your magic spells.

It is not needed to prepare Lower Resistance with a casting of Spell Strike, Lower Resistance will ignore all spell protections.

This technique takes care of the real mage threats: those that cast a variety of spells in a script, including such spells as protection from magic weapons, fire shield, mislead, stoneskin, multiple images, mantle, greater mantle, protection from normal weapons
[...]And then these spells are typically protected by Spell Trap, and sometimes by Spell Turning.

Unfortunately, spell protections do nothing to stop spell protection removal spells or Breach. They will pass unhindered. Spell Immunity:Abjuration will only protect spells against Dispel/Remove Magic. Spell Shield will only soak up one casting of a spell protection removal or breach. And that is all.

On a sidenote: Spell Immunity-Divination will protect Illusions from being dispelled by illusion removal spells. But in the case of Mislead it is the Mislead clone that needs to be protected by the spell, not the caster. As Spell Immunity can only be cast on self, the only possibility to protect the clone from being dispelled is , to move him as far away from potential enemy true sights as possible.

The manual is often incomplete, misleading, contradicting or simply wrong, so better double check any information on spells with the Spells Reference.

Enough for now, I'll write more later.

Best regards,
Lark.

PS: @Nimiety

I have had the insect plague spell come back and get me too... I think it's one of the higher level spell turning type-spells that turns it around.

I did check Insect Plague and Creeping Doom with Minor Spell Turning and with Spell Turning. I did check them more than once. There are no other turning type spells. Yes I did check them not by casting them at my party, but by casting at enemies.

The results:

[...]no, insect spells are not affected by spell reflection, in any way.

Which is not really much of a surprise, since no area spell is affected by spell reflection .

Correction: "Summon Insects" is a non-area spell, and thus subject to spell turning.

Nimiety · Post by **Nimiety** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:54 am

I will have to pay closer attention to the feedback screen - I have definately cast insect plague in the past, I've watched the little cloud of insects go towards my intended target, and then I've watched as it came back and got my caster - it was specifically seeing this happen that caused me to change my tactics in how I use that spell.

Granted, it hasn't happened very often, but you don't need to be hit too many times on the head with a hammer to know you don't like it.

Like I said, I will use it more frequently the next time I have a player that can cast it - I seem to recall it happening once in watcher's keep, perhaps on the 5th floor...

By the by, I have never thought of an inspect spell as an area spell, I always considered it in the same fashion as a confusion or stun-type spell - targetting a particular user and affecting his nearby compatriots as well. I classify area spells as those that have a range, but can get people who enter that range after the spell has been cast, which the insect spells can not.

Cheers,
N....

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:06 am

Now, I am embarrassed about the confusion. My own confusion came from the manual's spell descriptions, me forgetting that liches have a natural immunity to spells of level 5 or lower (including Breach), and mostly because the majority of my hours of play time was years ago. Thankfully, Lark is here to help us all out, and the link to expert Xyx's spell site is great. That being said, I haven't had much problem killing spell casters and spell casting monsters in a long time. And I feel the majority of the post is still good. I did mention the breach and pound tactic and also mentioned the area effect spells. My usual tactic involves breaching and beating. Although immune to breach, the liches did not trouble me either from SoA or ToB. I'll revise my guide considerably this weekend (hopefully). I probably have old save games where I can remind myself (write down) how I kill some of the spell casting monsters. I usually don't bother doing that if they are no challenge. Taking down a red dragon as a tenth level party without cheese, exploits, or any of the party being killed without the possibility of raising is challenging to me.

Spoilers
From my memory, I know that the shade and elemental liches typically fall to Azuredge with me - sometimes on the first toss of the axe. The same can be said of Shangrila? (first spell caster in the twisted rune, a lich) - just be careful not to kill him on the platform if you want the loot. I kill Kangaxx with the Mace of Disruption 2 while protected by a scroll (either scroll of Magic Protection (best) or Protection vs Undead). Some liches I have exploded by Turning. As I said before, most mages that I have fought fall with breach and beating. I'll try to expand this a bit later.

Edit: PS. I did understand Lower Resistance. Of course, it will do its job without Spell Strike, but its job does not include taking down protections like Spell Trap.

Lark · Post by **Lark** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:42 pm

I have definately cast insect plague in the past, I've watched the little cloud of insects go towards my intended target, and then I've watched as it came back and got my caster [...] I seem to recall it happening once in watcher's keep, perhaps on the 5th floor.

Spoiler warning.

I guess I know what has happened to you. You were fighting the seal party of Nalmissra and friends. One member of her party, Ameralis Zauviir, uses Insect Plague as one of her first moves. So you will probably have cast Insect Plague at her, which will have had no effect at her because of her impressive (95%) magic resistance, while she was casting Insect Plague herself at your party. You did not get hit by your own spell, but by her's.

Concerning area spells: Every spell that affects more than one target is an area spell*, and thus not affected by spell protections. It is irrelevant, whether you can target the spell at the ground (like Fireball, Stinking Cloud) , or you have to aim at one specific target (like Hold Person, Insect Plague). It doesn't matter if their effect is instantaneous (like Fireball) or if it persists (like Stinking Cloud), if the number of targets it affects is limited (like Hold Person, Insect Plague) or unlimited (like Fireball, Stinking Cloud, as long they fit in the AoE).

*That does not include spells like Call Lightning , which may affect more than one target, but only one at each time.

Best regards,
Lark.

Correction: Summon Insects is a non-area spell, and thus subject to Spell Turning.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:43 am

Magic Resistence

I was starting to think about it being related to magic resistence. But I am pretty certain my experience of this was not in Watcher's keep (as I hadn't yet loaded ToB when it first happened). As Nimiety said "You don't have to get hit it the head with hammer too many times...." But it may have been similar circumstances for me, i.e., the person I threw it at had magic resistence and at the same time cast insect plague at me.

BTW rbeverjr, you started a great thread, picked up some good stuff from you & others.

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:17 am

MY GUIDE CONTINUES

Demilich:
• You can sometimes kill a demilich with Turning if your cleric level is very high. You must protect yourself from the Imprisonment spell. You can do that with the Berserker’s rage, Spell Immunity: Abjuration, Protection from Undead scroll and Protection from Magic scroll. The Protection from Undead scroll makes the lich ignore you, but if he sees your other party members he will attack them. Protection from Magic is the best choice as the demilich will be helpless, and you will eventually kill him if you use a +4 or better weapon. (I suggest the Mace of Disruption 2 in SoA).
• Demiliches are immune to level 9 and less spells, if I am reading XyX’s spell immunity correctly. However, I believe that I recall pummelling a demilich with Melf’s Minute Meteors (a spell providing a physical attack).

Demons:
• My personal favorite tactic is just to remove the spell protections and let the fighters kill the demons. Breach or Ruby Ray of Reversal and then Breach almost always works. Protection from Evil will keep them from attacking you for the most part in SoA, but not so often in ToB.

Dragons:
• If the dragon is not immune to Time Stop, and you have Time Stop it should die. It does seem kind of cheesy to kill the foe in Time Stop – where’s the challenge in that? A pure mage could try things like Time Stop, Improved Alacrity, Spell Trigger (Lower Resistance x2; Ruby Ray of Reversal), Sequencer (Breach if fighter/summoned fighter help; Greater Malison; Confusion); as many magic missiles as you can if the dragon is not protected from them, then Horrid Wiltings, and/or Skull Traps. I haven’t done the math to determine what is the most efficient dragon killing spell routine. I don’t even know if this is the most efficient sequence of spells. Alternatively, the pure mage could just cast Shapechange, Time Stop, change to a Mind Flayer, and then attack and kill the dragon. Yep, it’s that simple. A fighter-mage could Time Stop and use whirlwinds. A fighter-mage-thief could Time Stop and whirlwind with Haer’dalis Chaos blade (assuming you use the XP cap remover and have the XP for the ninth level spell, Time Stop). Alternatively, the FMT could just do the same using a Time Trap.
• Spiked Traps (thief high level ability) is another way to deal with the nastiest dragons, demons, or foes of any sort – the massive damage is not subject to magic resistance, saves, to hit rolls, or weapon immunities. Again, this tactic can remove the challenge of the game.
• Devas and Planetars by themselves can handle some dragons.
• Mordenkainen’s Swords can be a great help to keep the dragon’s attacks off party members while they pelt it at range. Melf’s Minute Meteors and Energy Blades (high level ability) are good weapons for mages.
• If you aren’t high enough level to use the tactics described here, then tactics described elsewhere in this guide can be used.

MISCELLANEOUS COMMENTS
• Spellstrike. The description of Spellstrike says that “it will dispel all the magical protections that surround that creature.” That is false. It does not dispel Stoneskin or Mirror Image, for example. It seems like it dispels specifically the protections listed. It will also remove Spell Immunity Abjuration (which prevents Dispel Magic from working). Usually Spellstrike is no better than Ruby Ray of Reversal. My previous recommendation of this spell has changed.
• Secret Word abjuration will remove Spell Immunity Abjuration.
• Mass Invisibility (or Improved Invisibility on the fighters) can protect vs some spells, but this is not a reliable tactic in general. The enemy mages often cast True Sight, and they often use area effect spells like Symbols. For that reason, I generally prefer to cast True Seeing myself as it stops the enemy’s Mislead, Mirror Images, and other illusion type spells from it and its summons/minions. That’s particularly important when you encounter a high level mage with high level thieves.
• If the adversary has high magical resistance, you will have to lower the resistance to maximize the effect of the spells. A Spell Trigger of 3 Lower Resistance will do this. At high levels, you may choose to do 2 Lower Resistances and Greater Malison or Khelden’s Warding Whip when the foe does not have Spell Trap. Alternatively, use a spell that overcomes magic resistance like Dragon’s Breath, Sunfire, Fire Storm, or Implosion. (Liches are immune to Sunfire unless you load a Chain Contingency with it. …That shouldn’t be.) Storm of Vengeance may also do damage too through elemental damage.
• In order to make the creature vulnerable, use the Ruby Ray of Reversal (can use Rod of Reversal) followed by Breach (can use the Wand of Spell Striking). Often, this combination will make the creature subject to the physical damage of the fighters and spells (but still subject to saves and magic resistance). Other spells are less dependable but may work. For example, Secret Word (Level 4 abjuration) will not work against Spell Trap, but it will work against Spell Turning and Spell Immunity Abjuration.
• Acid Arrow can sometimes prevent spell casting, but if the mage is protected by minor spell turning, you may get that Acid Arrow if not protected.
• Magic missile provides a good spell to interrupt their casting, unless they are very resistant to magic.
• You can send in one fighter with a means to turn invisible (potions or rings, typically). Then you just wait for his protections to run out. Mass Invisibility can work similarly for the entire team. However, invisibility is often is not a good solution because the mage will cast True Seeing or dispel the invisibility in some other way. Some magic casting creatures, like dragons, can see the invisible.
• Another alternative is to spread the team out and use ranged weapons. The idea here is to make sure that the mage is not hurting the entire party at once with area of effect spells or dragon breath while you are damaging the mage physically (assuming he has made himself immune to magic with spell trap). Variations on this same theme include surrounding the casting monster with summons while you attack by range or use part of your team as melee while others are using ranged weapons. Melf’s Minute Meteors (or Energy Blades even better) are a good choice for mages. Besides physical damage, meteors do fire damage and energy blades do electrical damage that both make it through stoneskin. The rate of fire is such that often times you can disrupt spell casting.
• Mages can battle each other to great avail, using similar tactics. Usually, the mage with time stop, the most sequencer-type spells, and the Staff of the Magi has the advantage. The cheesy Cloak of Vecna gives an unfair advantage. The Staff of the Magi can also give too much advantage, unless the game has given the particular mage very nice scripted protections (Spell Trap, Mislead, etc.).
• Equipment can help survive mages’ onslaught by making your saves or magic resistance better, giving you Spell Trap (Staff of Magi) or Spell Absorption (Rod of Absorption), or making your resistant to magical damage (Belt of Inertial Barrier). Don’t forget those potions that can aid in one or more of these categories.

CONTINUES

rbeverjr · Post by **rbeverjr** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 11:18 am

Cheese:
• You can cause their scripted protections to activate (them seeing you is typically enough; sometimes you have to attack). Then run away, escaping the mage. Allow the spell durations to expire, and then come back to kill them (or repeat this process). (Liches may bring you back to them in the tactics mod if you try to run away.)
• Send in summoned creatures (even low levels) one at a time. This works best when the mage does not have creatures that are protecting him who may kill your creatures. The idea here is that the mage will waste his spells on the pitiful summons.
• The Cloak of Mirroring is an infamous item of cheese that protects the wearer from damaging magical spells specifically directed at the wearer. Especially, the unpatched version that would bounce the spells back at the caster.
• You can use Protection from Magic scrolls to give you total immunity to magic. In the case of liches, Protection from Undead scrolls also provide you with total immunity, but not the rest of your team - who the lich will target if he sees them! I typically don’t use any of this cheese, except vs demiliches. Although I can kill demiliches without cheese, I consider the ability to cast Imprisonment repeatedly, very quickly to be so much cheese that it deserves counter-cheese! So I use scrolls on them. (The raging Berserker can take out demiliches without cheese, as their rage confers immunity.)
• Spike traps. When done properly, these can execute the single threatening beast, even dragons or mighty demons. The damage typically is not resisted or allowed a save, and the damage is so much (particularly if setting a lot of them, which you can do) that I consider this tactic to be cheese.
• The use of Cloudkill. You can lower resistance of the target or use the wand. There really is no reason not to use the wand to conserve spell slots. You can target an area while the monster is out of range to kill it. You can target creatures inside a room and close a door. I consider this a cheese tactic because the enemy would have sense enough to leave the area of Cloudkill, but the AI does not allow them to do so. If it is a room with no exists or you cast it and engage them in melee, then it is not cheese. Cloudkill can foil spell casting (but not always).
• Summon Nishruu and Hakeashar or Polymorph to Mustard Jelly is considered cheese because high level mages would know that these creatures are immune to magic and yet they will cast spells at them repeatedly. Although Nishruu and Hakeashar are fairly effective against many casters, they can also drain charged magic items (and even non-charged items if you don’t have the Baldurdash fix).
• I consider the Robe of Vecna to be cheese. The huge decrease in spell casting time is just unfair, particularly when combined with Improved Alacrity.
• This is not nearly a complete list of what I consider cheese. I tried to keep most cheese out of my recommended tactics. For instance, Project Image and Simulacrum are two spells that are rife for cheese tactics, and are spells that I do not use. If you want cheese tactics please refer to UserUnfriendly’s guide to cheese.