GameBanshee Forums

Well, first hello to everyone! Happy New Year !!

I'm new to this forum,and English is not my native language, so beware of some mistyping here and there ,and sorry for that .

OK, now to the Topic.

Egervari's guide : UPP can be found here ,as Brynn's sticky post informed.

Jukka Mikkonen's guide : JUPP can be found here , well ,basically a uber enhanced with ALL new concepts version of UPP.

As for me , I'm playing IWD II with Bonus CD Patch and 2.01 Patch installed, nothing else. By some means , I'm a lazy guy, and somehow hate to restart game just because some big mistake maken in char creation , so you can see these two guides is SOOOOOOO much helpful !

And, for IWD II, I personally think it as a Diablo Version of BGII plus 3e rules, hence everyone can see how weak roleplay part is in this game. For roleplay , I'd like to play BG series or PS:T instead. So, I'm a bit of muchkin or powergaming in this game , please don't blame me for that.

For these two guides ( beware you MUST go to the address above to find JUPP 1.01, which is much different from Gamefaqs' 1.00 version , mainly in Arcane PArty ) , I simply followed them ,and thus make 3 party simultaneous, 1 from UPP, 1 from JUPP Melee, 1 from JUPP Arcane. I just play one party, if get bored, then switch to another party and go on and on.

Now I'm not going very far , just about to finish IceTemple,and I have some question about these parties.

First about Improved Initial feat , I twitched Arcane party a little so the first two char have it, and of course download the ii_fix item, seems no problem. While these duo are about 37,000 exp each, I introduce the third char, Drow sorc, and same feat. This time BIG problem, generate ii_fix, while this char cant drink it. No matter how many times I push the quick item button, the potion remain colored, while my former chars' potion become black'n'white after drinking. And no much defference noticed about the feat. Did I mess up with it or the potion can't be given to those who are not created from the game start or what else? Plus is this feat powerful enough to have on contrast with JUPP suggest feat?

And as I play so far , I think UPP to be the most funiest party ever, mainly because the level lower than the other two, thus more challenging. For JUPP's two party , I all have a Permanet mule and some level squating, thus while in IceTemple my main char are all 11-13lv, but average party level just 6-8 or so. So you can imagine how boring you will be while use mass haste or whatelse on easy enemy. (well, I'm in Normal/Normal difficulty, i guess that's the game meant to be) So , I think the best way to enjoy the game is make a SIX men (including some women I mean) party , and just level squating for those ECL races.

Anyone agree with me ?

Anyone played the three parties and any comment? All comments are welcome.

WARING: below contain a bug of the game, you who don't want to know this DO NOT read it.

And I found a BUG which have unlimited EXP to exploit, and never be seen on Gamefaqs' guide ( or I just miss it?) : In IceTemple, beside Nathanilel there is five prisoners to rescue and 1575 EXP each, absolutely there is a bug that only if they are in the map and you opened the door , every time you load a game , you are comsiderd rescue them once and get the 7875 EXP, so you can save and load many times before they disappear ( they just walk to the exit , kinda slow ) from the map. As for the unlimited EXP, simply put you char before the door ( 1 is enough if you find the precise spot, while for insurance you can have all char stand there) and block the way, these 5 prisoners won't find a way out the prison, while you just save and load and see your EXP roecket uprising ! I must admit it's much less challenge if you do so, so I won't.

OK, enough for the first post , I know I write in no order , and for you who read so far, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Any comment is welcome, just blast me with your posts!

Lunch Time

And some comment when I played these partis.

UPP : mainly the stansard version of the good four (F/C/R/W) , except usage of human skill +1 and thus many point min-maxing. Play this party is OK , well , nothing much special . And dont unestimate this Party , while level grows , power grows too .

JUPP Melee: kinda weird compared to the upper party . Have Deep Gnome as party's tank and cleric , absolutely no RolePlay concept here . I just can't imagine it , can you ? I also have to say , this party is quite easy to start , as you have really high AC , so don't worry to be hurt unless some netural 20s , which can be easy to heal . Later on , as the sorc grow powerful , I find myself use magic most ,which lead me to the Arcane party .

JUPP Arcane : well , more weird than above . Mainly because I'm cofused with the guide itself . As updated from 1.00 to 1.01 , the author apparently didn't check twice ,as I can see many errors here ans there . I.e. for the third char Drow Sorc , in 1.01 version no Pal level suggested , while for ability scores he said "Wis is not crucial cauz Pal will make up with the Cha modifier." You see ? Same thing happened with the forth char , this time the race . There author suggest a Asimair , while in the other part of the guide he mentioned more than once EVERY char should have spell resistance thus should be DG or Drow . Also for the permanent mule , he suggest Asimair , while in chapter 2.6 he suggest human . I'm REALLY confused by this part of the guide . so I have to do what I think he mean. First I just create the first DUO , two Deep Gnomes . After they reach 37,000 EXP each , I create the Drow Sorc , so in the end of the game (HOF) Gnomes will have 32,000 more than Drow and all get to level 30 at the same time . Same , when Drow habe 33,000 EXP I create the Asimair Sorc , and when Asimair is 30,000 Exp , I create the permanent mule Human Pal 1/Monk 1 . For this party , the Early part when you only have 2 char ,Really is a pain ! In pallisade , when goblins rush , I have to reload many times for this DUO not to Die with so few HP . This pain continues until my Drow Sorc is power enough to gain fireball , bla , world is clear . From then on , it's mall like hot knife on ice . Way TOO easy. Later as level grows , Sorc is too powerful , I think , maybe this is for HOF ?

All in all , I admit I like UPP the most , perhaps because still some Roleplay parts in it ? Of course JUPP Arcane is the most powerful , really . JUPP Melee don't have too much attribute for me to recall here . Plus , have one with high AC and high SAVE and evasion , then blast him with spell is quite useful , I mean it RULES !

That's all . Thanks for your patience !

WOW... You people love typing.. seriusly... lol

First i was going to comment on that IWD2 no RPG thing and it is Diablo 2 version of BG2.. But then.. i have done it so many times allready.. last time was on Morrowind forums.. but still.. i am bit too tired right now.. Perhaps you just dont see any roleplaying elements in this game.. But still.. Nah forget it.. It is pointless to protect anything.. if i am forced to talk with those BG morons.. i might sound like snob or kerk.. i dont care...

But as for your party..

Lixin..

JUPP Melee: kinda weird compared to the upper party . Have Deep Gnome as party's tank and cleric , absolutely no RolePlay concept here..


What do you mean with roleplaying concept? Is roleplaying that thing when each race has it's fafourite class as it's class.. is maxing all important stats and lowering all useless stats to 3 roleplaying? Nah forget it.. done this too.. way too many times...

Not anymore naswer for lixin oops yes it is still..

But as for quides.. dont know.. haven't read those.. but i ques you are right.. but i would like to remind that Finnish and English work almost 100% different systems..

Forget this allready?

Well, first hello to everyone! Happy New Year !!

I'm new to this forum,and English is not my native language, so beware of some mistyping here and there ,and sorry for that .

But is there real reason to ask sorry? No there isn't.. How do i explain that? Well i would like to see most of you learn my home language.. and talk it..

By using some premade powergaming partys you will miss almost all roleplaying in this game.. well you can generate some backround stories.. but still all tanks would be ugly as hell and i am sure you know how this continues.. if you dont know? don't ask..

Welcome to the forum

Happy 2005 to all of you!

Never worry, roughly the 60% of the GB members are non-native speakers, so no one will pick at you b/c of this

As for the roleplaying aspects of the game, you're right, BG is far better and adventurous - but still, IWD has a lot of fantastic puzzles and quests in store! And I prefer its scenes over Athkatla, too while I terribly miss all of those great companions I had by my side when searching for a way to rescue Imoen... Well, both have their pros and contras, naturally.

Aaand... looks like I'm the only one with this problem here, but I admit, I have no idea what on earth UPP and JUPP stand for...?

perhaps they mean those guides made by Egervari and Jukka Mikkonen..

But then what does those realy mean?

Got as far as finding out that UPP means Ultimate Powergaming Party... what's JUPP, then?

Jukka's Ulti... blahaha

[QUOTE=Wrath-Of-Egg]Jukka's Ulti... blahaha[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess none here has read these guide?

I said UPP and JUPP b/c that's what the authors themself call it . I should have said the full name .

I just want to hear some advice on these powergaming party , r they good or bad and why ...

TO Wrath:
yeah when I say no roleplay concept , I mean in my mind and many books seems tank should be huge like Orc or Strdy like Dwarf , while Deep Gnome always is the one who deal with mechanics ( like Oswald ) or test pipes and potions or what , so , have such a little one on the frontline and shoot him with ownfire make me feel EVIL , although that is incredible efficiency . And since Finnish and English all use letters , I don't think there are so many difference ? At the very least you can see what relly differences there are between my Chinese and your european languages

[QUOTE=LiXin]I just want to hear some advice on these powergaming party , r they good or bad and why ...
[/QUOTE]

Happy New Year!

I also looked at the UPP and JUPP before starting my party but I got a whole lot more mileage out of the "IWD2 Character Development Guide" at this link. http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD2/index_tips.php

The problem I had with the UPP and JUPP is that while they are an interesting exercise and have some good tips, I thought they take too much of the fun out of it. Planning a party and chartacters is SO much fun that I decided I didn't want to be told the answer in a canned format. Rather, I wanted the tools to understand and make my own decisions, but be reasonably confident that the party would work.

The guide I linked to above spends about 20 pages discussing how to develop IWD2 characters and then 2 pages giving you a couple examples of parties that would be effective. There's no concept of "ultimate". Remember, ultimate doesn't mean "fun" and your party doesn't have to be ultimate to survive and win the game. Plus, I appreciate that this guide doesn't assume you are playing HOF.

-ishuman

Well as for same letters.. yes that is true.. but aren't Chinese going to change their writing style or have they allready changed it to what these letters wich we use in western countries.. or do still use those pictures wich were invented in middle east? well near modern Irak anyway..

Yes i admit there are few ''similarities''.. but i can say that English and Finnish has as much in common than English and Chinese.. Finnish works almost 100% different rules.. Nah.. forget it..

I could give you lesson on history of western languages.. but hey it is 11.10 am or should it be pm? Right now i am still sleeping.. Then how do i type these things? I dont know.. but still i wont give that lesson to you.. it would mean way too much translating..

But as for your ''roleplaying'' i can only say that you should get rid of those thoughts.. and dont read books wich have ''DragonLance'' on their cover.. well you realy dont need to do that.. but still.. Half Orc Wizard... as strong as any Orc and smarter than most humans..

[QUOTE=ishuman]
The problem I had with the UPP and JUPP is that while they are an interesting exercise and have some good tips, I thought they take too much of the fun out of it. Planning a party and chartacters is SO much fun that I decided I didn't want to be told the answer in a canned format. Rather, I wanted the tools to understand and make my own decisions, but be reasonably confident that the party would work.[/QUOTE]

Exactly what I thought! When I looked up UPP in the guide I also read the warnings - don't read it further if you'd rather roleplay, so I closed it right away

I really don't see why it is a goal for many to create the most powerful ever party...? The game is beatable with almost every combination... when I first played it I knew nothing about rules and ability scores and hit dice and stuff, so I just created my chars according to the general advices listed on the right when picking each ability point. I don't say that was the best party I could imagine but still, they managed to finish the game

Well, maybe soloing and HOF needs a bit more preparation...

Brynn.."#"#" (that means quote.. well not realy.. but that is all that you will get)

I really don't see why it is a goal for many to create the most powerful ever party...?

People play other roleplaying games online and sadly they play with people who shouldn't be playing or they are ones who shouldn't be playing..

They will set themselves goal that they will want to best so they will seek ways to create perfect build that is strongest and unbeatable by others.. thhey will do anything to get that thing becuse they will think that other people will ''admire'' them wich is not what happens.. well atleast i dont admire those people and you shouldn't too.. but some point there is no way to improve your own character/party or it is too hard.. then there will be cheats.. so whole game turns into who has the best cheats.. but those people also hate new things becuse if something changes they might not be anymore ''best'' players in that game.. good sample of this type game is Diablo 2.. but dont think that is only in RPG's.. it is on every game.. i am sure you have heard of game called CS.. But then there is game where is no point doing those powergaming things.. but most people will do those just becuse they realy dont have any idea of what else can i do..

But still games wich will allow you to communicate with rest of world will make most people complite jerks and other terms here wich mean similar words or things.

How would that be prevented.. no bad words allowed? Well it might be good idea but it doesn't work.. It might work on forums.. but still in most cases it doesn't work in games.. people will make alternative ways to say that thing and more words will be banned.. or better way to say that would be more letter combinations will be banned or something like that.. talking some other language than English will turn quite hard.. like things are in game called Runescape. But i havent played in long time that game so thing might have changed.. but in long run even talking normal English will turn hard.

I dont belive that this is good way to spent my time.. typing thinsg that everyone knows.. well almost everyone.. and those who dont know.. it is good thing..

.

UPP & JUPP - as both authors stated right at the beginning have both nothing to do with roleplaying!


btw. I don't think that UPP is that good!

...but reading both guides is quite interesting and there are some good ideas in!


...but I think just to rebuild these parties is the wrong approach! better...

...read the guides - try to understand the concepts - rethink the concepts - design your own party - read the guides a 2nd time - rethink your party - redesign your party - and have fun planning *your own* party!


...and let me tell you - there are some other extremly powerfull builds / party concepts - that go through normal & HOF mode like a cera sumat through warm butter!


.

I read both UPP and JUPP and got a lot out of them. There are many new ideas that I would have never tried if it wasn't for these guides. My personal opinion about the consept of making an ultimate party is why wouldn't I try. Why wouldn't you wanna try out a party that is supposed to be godlike. I think it even gives the game new replay value when you can try out new things even if they arent as roleplaying focused as you want them to be. Also on the JUPP there are listed the atribute values if you don't want to do min/maxing. So I don't see any point on complaining about these guides. I think the guys have made a hell of a job listing all the things and trying them out. So be thankful for them for giving a new view on how to play IWD2 another way.

TK

I'm reading Egervari's UPP guide now.
There's one thing I don't understand: the Shield Dwarf fighter/barbarian gets 16 DEX. The explanation says that even 13 would be sufficient enough. I thought DEX has an effect on AC - why is it no good to raise it as high as you can?

Certain armors (almost all) have thing called ''max dexterity bonus''.

Yeah armors have max dex bonuses.. and you must have atleast 13 dex to have Dirty Fighting. But I would prefer to have as high dex as possible and select the armor that has the highest dex bonus or no dex bonus at all. But as said in JUPP you must build the character to have the highest armor class that is possible or ignore the whole AC.

TK

So what's the point in having 18DEX and then use an armor with no DEX bonus?

[QUOTE=Brynn]So what's the point in having 18DEX and then use an armor with no DEX bonus? [/QUOTE]


don't know exactly how UPP was designed anymore...

...but I would guess...

a) Drakkas is used for someone else

b) he needs the stat points for other stats

c) a barb can't reach any AC that matters - so he ignores AC completly

d) ...most likely - triggered by c): a) & b)



EDIT: btw. forget about the barb (at least if you go for HOF) - the barb design is definetly *not* ultimate !

.

[QUOTE=Brynn]I'm reading Egervari's UPP guide now.
There's one thing I don't understand: the Shield Dwarf fighter/barbarian gets 16 DEX. The explanation says that even 13 would be sufficient enough. I thought DEX has an effect on AC - why is it no good to raise it as high as you can?[/QUOTE]

Dex. is 16 because you don't have any more points to distribute, unless lowering str/con/wis, which are considered more important in that built.
The minimum of 13 was meant for the dirty fighting feat in the case you didn't want to extreme min/max.

What is unconceivable is that a fig/barb that is a real powerhouse in normal become almost useless in HoF. I haven't tried HoF yet, but it doesn't appeal me much a mode that makes some char. ineffective.
I think HoF lack of any balance: every class should be effective in HoF, some more and some less obviously, while in all the posts everybody says that only sorc. or specific spellcasting multiclass are really effective.