major advancement problem

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:05 pm

I am trying to find the Mythic Dawn. I've just left Baurus in the sewers and killed the three MD NPCs to get the fourth book. However, I cannot get out of the dungeons. I keep hitting groups of goblins (shaman and 2-3 others) and cannot kill them all.

Is it possible to level "badly" and be too high a level for your actual skills? I'm level 15 and using the Honorblade of Chorral still as at a 12 rated damage it's the highest weapon I've come across thusfar.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:12 pm

Is it possible to level "badly" and be too high a level for your actual skills?

It's very, very easy to do that, in fact the way the game's set up is almost like a trap to lure you into doing just that,

You may have noticed that I've commented in other threads about the fact that leveling up is often more beneficial to your enemies than it is to you, I wasn't exaggerating.

The Honorblade of Chorrol is an excellent weapon, there aren't many better one handed swords in the game. I prefer it to Umbra, because although Umbra has a higher damage rating (29 max as opposed to the HBoC's 23) it isn't enchantable whereas the Honorblade is. Without skill or strength bonuses Umbra can never do more than 29 damage, whereas the Honorblade can do 53 with the right enchantments/sigil stone.

At 15th level you should be doing more than 12 damage with it if you had increased your blade skill and strength (luck also increases damage).

By 15th level I'd be expecting my blade skill and strength to be over 65, and I also like to enchant items with fortify luck, luck boosts everything, and IMO is the most important attribute you have; there is a reason it's the only attribute mot tied to a skill!

However, all that aside, you don't have to exit the sewers via the goblin hideout, you can retrace your steps and exit the way you entered; follow the trail of crab and rat corpses.

You'll still need to address the imbalance though, or this will keep recurring. Identify which skills are causing you to level up too qickly and use them as little as possible, whilst improving blase and strength.

the worst class choice possible is one that has blade, blunt and hand-to-hand as majors, along with armorer, heavy armor, bock and athletics; in case you hadn't noticed that's exactly the setup for the default Warrior class, never, ever use that class. the ultimate hardcore run through would be warrior with the hardest difficulty setting, use that and expect to die an awful lot.

If the worst comes to the worst, lower the difficulty setting.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:10 pm

Gonna have to restart I guess, but here's what I've got now:

Level: 15
Health; 154
Magicka: 100
Fatigue: 234

Major:
Blade (50), Alchemy (57), Acrobatics (39), Light Armor (55), Marksman (47), Security (54), Sneak (70)

Minor:
Armorer (31), Athletics (29), Block (29), Blunt (6), Hand/Hand (10), Heavy Armor (18), Alteration (12), Conjuration (6), Destruction (17), Illusion (19), Mysticism (34), Restoration (23), Mercantile (31), Speechcraft (40)

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:46 pm

In my opinion the big mistakes were having Alchemy, Security and Sneak as majors, three vital skills that boost your level far to quickly and leave your combat skills struggling.

I imagine your biggest problem is strength and endurance judging from your previous reference to the Honorblade and your low health. Endurance is something that needs constant attention along with strength and agility if you're going the warrior/thief/assassin route. Not nearly so important if you're going the mage route of course, although health always helps, but you're obviously not bothering with magic at all.

The alchemy as a major really is a serious problem, it stops you from developing and making a good stock of poisons and healing potions. I don't think I've ever reached 15th level without getting to master level alchemy. It's just too important to have as a major.

To get the best out of your current character you need to concentrate on enchanting items. Chameleon on everything would be tempting, but with your low illusion skill that's not an option, and 100% Chameleon is just horribly cheesy. On the other hand the Fire/frost/shock Shield option isn't available either due to low Alteration; I imagine your armor is getting broken constantly leaving you undefended, shield enchantments are almost a must if you're relying on light armour.

My advice would be to exit the sewers the way you came in, join the mages guild if you haven't already done so and finish the recommendation quest (the Leyawiin one may give you some problems though if you haven't done it yet). Train Alteration up to 25 so you can cast fire/shock/frost shield and enchant your armour and rings etc. so no matter what happens to your armour the armour class stay high. Also enchant your weapons, experiment with combination enchantments (turn undead & fire damage for example, another goody is demoralise and damage, you'd need 25 in illusion for that). Also consider returning the honotblade to it's rightful owner (talk to the guards in Chorrol Castle), I'm not crazy, you may consider the reward worth it; save first of course in case you disagree.

Consider enchanting one weapon with Soul Trap for 2 seconds and Drain health 100 for 1 second to capture souls, a bow would do nicely, and try enchanting a bow with just drain health 100 for 1 second. With your sneak and marksman skill you should be able to take out a Flame Atronach with two hits with a bow so enchanted; make a nasty mess of most goblins too.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:37 am

So if I'm understanding correctly (just for replays as well):

1. Majors are not what you want to be real good at, more of what you want to use less of to level up (as majors drive your leveling).
2. Try to keep all your ratings balanced (not just STR, INT, etc, when you pick your three upgrades each level) but actually casting offensive spells, defensive spells, shooting bows and using sword and board as well in every fight?

That just seems counterintuitive..lol.

I gotta go read up on enchanting..oh and I just got kicked out of the mages guild for killing the mage in the tower on the Grey Fox thieves quest.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:18 am

Unfortunately due to the bad game design it is very counter intuitive. The most powerful 'natural' class is straight mage, but without Alchemy as a major. It's also the easiest to succeed with. Destruction is slow to level up, you should kill any opponent with at most two spells so leveling progress is slow, and by using your minor skills and buying 5 skill points in armorer/heavy Armour/block you can drive endurance up by 5 points at every level up. By combining spells you can choose which magic discipline is the definitive one for each spell. Restoration also increases slowly, bung an absorb health element on every offensive spell, voila, every offensive spell is either a destructive spell or a restoration one. Turn undead 25 magnitude on touch, plus fire/damage health/shock and you have a destructive spell to zap undead with; chuck in absorb health and it's restoration.

creating an intuitive fighter/thief/assassin is much harder. I'd suggest something like a tweaked Warrior with the following majors:

Blunt, Heavy Armour, Block, Armorer, Conjuration, Alteration, Light Armor

Never use a blunt weapon, wear light armor, or cast spells that are defined as conjuration or alteration, but you can have their apprentice spells in your repertoire for enchantment purposes.

So the only skills that are increasing level are all endurance related, so +5 endurance at every level increase.

By sneaking, lock picking and using bows as often as possible you should add 5 agility every time, and by using Blade* weapons and fists (when not wearing armor if necessary) you can usually ensure +5 strength.

Intuitive? No, although at a glance at the majors it does look like a warrior, and in fact acts like one, just one that doesn't advertise her/his presence like an idiot.

If you don't have the Frostcrag Spire plugin you need to get back into the mages guild quickly, search on this forum for advice if necessary, you aren't the first to fall foul of the Gray Fox's evil machinations regarding Fathis Aren in the Arrow of Extrication quest.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:44 pm

galraen wrote:Restoration also increases slowly, bung an absorb health element on every offensive spell, voila, every offensive spell is either a destructive spell or a restoration one. Turn undead 25 magnitude on touch, plus fire/damage health/shock and you have a destructive spell to zap undead with; chuck in absorb health and it's restoration.

What is bung? Not understanding that one..

galraen wrote:creating an intuitive fighter/thief/assassin is much harder. Never use a blunt weapon, ... By sneaking, lock picking and using bows as often as possible you should add 5 agility every time, and by using blunt weapons and fists (when not wearing armor if necessary) you can usually ensure +5 strength.

OK, real confused on this one. Never use one, but use one?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:15 pm

Ragin Cajun wrote:What is bung? Not understanding that one..

Apologies, British Colloquialism, bung = throw

Ragin Cajun wrote:OK, real confused on this one. Never use one, but use one?

Sorry, typo, the second reference should have read blade. So have blunt as a major, but only use blade and hand to hand.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:18 pm

Ok..thanks.

I know so little about this game..lol.

Trying to find a link for the Wizard's Tower thing. Is the downloadable content you buy (it appears)? The oblivion download site is down.

Now the stuff you talk about adding on, is that enchantments so that a blade attack could also cast a heal on yourself and other effects as well?

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:08 pm

galraen wrote:Unfortunately due to the bad game design it is very counter intuitive. The most powerful 'natural' class is straight mage, but without Alchemy as a major. It's also the easiest to succeed with. Destruction is slow to level up, you should kill any opponent with at most two spells so leveling progress is slow, and by using your minor skills and buying 5 skill points in armorer/heavy Armour/block you can drive endurance up by 5 points at every level up. By combining spells you can choose which magic discipline is the definitive one for each spell. Restoration also increases slowly, bung an absorb health element on every offensive spell, voila, every offensive spell is either a destructive spell or a restoration one. Turn undead 25 magnitude on touch, plus fire/damage health/shock and you have a destructive spell to zap undead with; chuck in absorb health and it's restoration.

So for a mage, what would be the best majors? The spell classes? (Destruction, Resto, etc)?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:57 pm

Unlike Morrowind, you can only put enchantments on weapons that affect the target, so no restore health on self unfortunately; the closest you can get is absorb health.

As for a mage, then I go for all spell schools as majors, and the final slot I put on something I'm never going to use, Hand-to-Hand for example.

Without The Wizard's Tower (Frostcrag) plugin, a mage's priority has to be the mage guild recommendations. Complete these without gaining more than one level should be the target; the toughest one is the Leyawiin recommendation, but the weak fireball spell that Adrienne teaches you for the Skingrad recommendation should get you through read this to see how to do that one.

Avoid using any spells other than destruction and restoration until you have access to the spell making altar, alteration and conjuration can push your level up very quickly if you're not careful.

Once you have access to the spell making alter in the Arcane University, you can really start but kicking. Warning, you may find the game a bit too easy once you get the hang of creating spells properly.

The three priority abilities for a mage are willpower, intelligence and endurance. Alchemy takes care of intelligence, concentrating on Destruction and Resoration deals with willpower, and you can buy Armorer and/or Heavy Armor skills and use block and armorer to raise endurance.

Which leaves the encumbrance problem, the bag of holding mod takes care of that problem nicely.

PS Try to avoid wearing armour, it screws up your spell casting, and as a mage that's bad news. Once you can enchant, then putting fire/shock/frost shield enchantments on you clothes will give you all the protection you need. Once protection is taken care of go for fortify luck enchantments.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:17 pm

I have the Viconia addon that fable mentioned in a thread once. She had unlimited weight ability so that's already taken care of.

So, you should do all the mage guild quests before starting Fighters, Thieves, DB correct?

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:40 am

Ragin Cajun wrote:I have the Viconia addon that fable mentioned in a thread once. She had unlimited weight ability so that's already taken care of.

So, you should do all the mage guild quests before starting Fighters, Thieves, DB correct?

I like to role play, so if I'm playing a straight mage I wouldn't join those guilds.

If I was playing a mage/thief I'd join the thieves guild perhaps, no fighting or any other major skill boosting in involved really. Useful to have access to someone who can wipe your criminal record, just in case.

No harm in joining the fighter's guild, if I'm plying a fighter/mage, the lass in the Chorrol FG isn't a bad choice of vendor to sell the crap that Jauffre gives you.

Obviously I'd only join the DB (or the thieves guild for that matter) if I was playing an evil character. Of course you only can join by invite, and I certainly wouldn't be trying to get an invite until I'd sorted the recommendation problem.

PS The Viconia mod puzzles the heck out of me, I can't understand trying to graft a BG character from the Forgotten Realms onto another universe at all.

PPS completely OT, is Jauffre simply totally incompetent or a secret Mythic Dawn agent?

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:02 am

Galraen, I gotta say thanks to you for continuing to come to this forum. I realize the game has probably run it's course but it's nice to see someone still popping in to help...so thanks.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:21 pm

Always a pleasure to try and help.

the one thing that saves this game, and makes it re-playable every once in a while are the fan made mods, they are what make this, and Morrowind for that matter; same goes for Baldur's Gate in many ways too.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:10 pm

galraen wrote:In my opinion the big mistakes were having Alchemy, Security and Sneak as majors, three vital skills that boost your level far to quickly and leave your combat skills struggling.

I imagine your biggest problem is strength and endurance judging from your previous reference to the Honorblade and your low health. Endurance is something that needs constant attention along with strength and agility if you're going the warrior/thief/assassin route. Not nearly so important if you're going the mage route of course, although health always helps, but you're obviously not bothering with magic at all.

The alchemy as a major really is a serious problem, it stops you from developing and making a good stock of poisons and healing potions. I don't think I've ever reached 15th level without getting to master level alchemy. It's just too important to have as a major.

To get the best out of your current character you need to concentrate on enchanting items. Chameleon on everything would be tempting, but with your low illusion skill that's not an option, and 100% Chameleon is just horribly cheesy. On the other hand the Fire/frost/shock Shield option isn't available either due to low Alteration; I imagine your armor is getting broken constantly leaving you undefended, shield enchantments are almost a must if you're relying on light armour.

My advice would be to exit the sewers the way you came in, join the mages guild if you haven't already done so and finish the recommendation quest (the Leyawiin one may give you some problems though if you haven't done it yet). Train Alteration up to 25 so you can cast fire/shock/frost shield and enchant your armour and rings etc. so no matter what happens to your armour the armour class stay high. Also enchant your weapons, experiment with combination enchantments (turn undead & fire damage for example, another goody is demoralise and damage, you'd need 25 in illusion for that). Also consider returning the honotblade to it's rightful owner (talk to the guards in Chorrol Castle), I'm not crazy, you may consider the reward worth it; save first of course in case you disagree.

Consider enchanting one weapon with Soul Trap for 2 seconds and Drain health 100 for 1 second to capture souls, a bow would do nicely, and try enchanting a bow with just drain health 100 for 1 second. With your sneak and marksman skill you should be able to take out a Flame Atronach with two hits with a bow so enchanted; make a nasty mess of most goblins too.

On a mage character, which enchants do you suggest? Straight shield on each clothing piece? Or a combo of the fire/frost/shock you are mentioning here in this thread? What's the difference? I'm thinking straight shield would be better as it ups your overall defense.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 3:24 pm

Elemental shields are a 'buy one, get one free deal', it adds to your overall armour class and elemental resistance.

For example; 10 Fireshield adds 10 to your A/C and also 10 to your fire resistance. The fire resistance stacks with plain fire resistance too; so a Drow Elf with fire shield on items that add up to 25 not only has a guaranteed Armour Class of 25 no matter what happens to her/his armour, but is also immune to fire. Not to be sneezed at in this game, Oblivion Gates are a stroll in the park for Dumner.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 5:57 pm

Gotcha. So +25 to elements is what you are shooting for? My spells are still low there but I have +6 fire on one piece and a ring and then +6 shock on one piece and a ring and +6 frost on one piece. So I'm 30 defense on shield, and 12 fire, 12 shock and 6 frost.

galraen · Post by **galraen** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 8:15 pm

The +25 was just an example of my first target if my character was a Dunmer.

As a mage I'd be looking to enchant clothing and jewelry with elemental shield until I had an A/C of 85 (max) eventually. The elemental resistance isn't quite so important as you can boost resistances with potions, and A/C of course. Once I was satisfied with my physical and elemental defence I'd enchant everything else with fortify luck.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:35 pm

If my counting is right, and from reading other posts, never wear robes. And you would have shirt, pants, shoes, rings (2), hat and necklace...that's all there is right?