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Dowaco
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Post by Dowaco »

dragon wench wrote: despite his abysmally low ratings almost 1/3 of the American public think Bush is doing a good job and that the Democrats are responsible for the present economic situation...
A 30% approval rating is historically very low. I think you are seeing the glass half empty (or is it 3/4 empty), 70% do not think he is doing a good job which is high in American politics where everything seems to split 50/50. But the US Congress has an even lower rating than the president.
dragon wench wrote: Granted, when it comes to the economic matters you can't entirely pinpoint a single source, but given that the Republicans have been in office for the past eight years and that the Clinton administration left the nation in the black.. the mind simply boggles.. :rolleyes:
I am of the opinion that presidents should not take credit for good economic times nor should they be blamed for bad times. The economy is so complex that it has a life of its own. Politicians would take credit for the sun coming up in the morning if they could get away with it.

Given that statement, The economy was not impacted by Bush until 9/11/01 which was an outside influence. The famous internet bubble of 2000 was formed during Clinton's years. From the middle of 2002 until the middle of 2007 the stock market went from 8000 to 14000 with Republicans in control of both houses of Congress. The Democrats have been in control of Congress for the last two years. They swept into office in 2006 on the promise of getting us out of Iraq. (which they did nothing about except allocate more money) So you could make the argument that the market did not go down until there was a Democratic congress.

Furthermore, The recent Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac disasters can be directly attributed to Democrats who wanted easy mortgages for their "disenfranchised" constituents. Sub-prime mortgages, it turns out, they could not pay for which resulted in numerous foreclosures. Even Saturday Night Live spoofed the Democrats on this point.
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Post by Claudius »

Yes but why isn't the banking industry regulated so they don't play roulette with money and then want a bail out? I seem to recall a need for less government from the republican party. Well this is the type of market swing that happens in the free market. I guess the country should just experience depressions on the scale of the great depression so that we can have less government (sarcasm)? That IS what Hoover said back then.

Edit: by your logic it would be the fault of people who bought hamburgers if McDonalds went out of business because they didn't charge enough to cover the costs. Banks need to evaluate whether someone can pay back a loan. It is the banks fault if they fail to do that.

Edit: In my opinion the assets of the banking CEOs who took such foolish risks even though they make a 50 million dollar salary each year should be liquidated and used for the bailout. So many people depend on these CEOs and they are gambling like they are playing a game.
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Post by VonDondu »

Dowaco wrote:Furthermore, The recent Fanny Mae, Freddy Mac disasters can be directly attributed to Democrats who wanted easy mortgages for their "disenfranchised" constituents. Sub-prime mortgages, it turns out, they could not pay for which resulted in numerous foreclosures.
That's the standard Republican excuse. (I've been receiving all of the email chain-letters about it from my dear, deluded mother.) But the truth is actually a lot more complicated than saying, "Banks were forced by Democrats to make bad loans to low-income homeowners and they all defaulted and that's why our economy is in such bad shape right now."

Our current economic problems began back in the 80s and 90s when all of the banks were deregulated. McCain's own senior economic advisor, former-Senator-turned lobbyist Phil Gramm, was one of the people most responsible for deregulation. The banks did much more than make bad loans to minority homeowners; they made bad loans to EVERYONE, regardless of income. Mortgages with variable interest rates, low down-payments, and "cash back" incentives (which were really just more loans that most people didn't seem to realize they had to pay back) enticed a lot of people to sign up for mortgages they couldn't afford. When it was so easy to get a mortgage (especially with "cash back" loans that enabled a lot of people to live beyond their means), more people bought houses they couldn't afford, and housing prices were artificially inflated. The fact is, the people of this country do not make enough money to afford all of the homes for sale at their current prices. Sure, you can blame a lot of people for living beyond their means, and you can blame the banks for making irresponsible loans to people who can never pay them back. When a large percentage of homeowners--most of whom are NOT minorities--began defaulting on their mortgages, the chickens came home to roost, so to speak. The actual total loss from bad mortgages is probably about $100 billion or so. But that's chicken feed when you look at the big picture.

Do you know anything about derivatives? I don't think I can explain how they work, because very few people even understand them. Commie pinko liberals like Warren Buffet call them "weapons of mass financial destruction". But here's a simplistic explanation. Basically, you start with a mortgage, which is a loan. You assume that the loan will be paid in full someday. So you count the full value of the loan as an "asset" on your balance sheet. The money is gone, already spent, but the bank is supposed to get it back, right? So you've got a nice, fat juicy number on paper. ("That house down the road is worth $500,000 because we can always get someone to sign a $500,000 mortgage, and next year, we'll refinance it for $700,000. Isn't this a great country?") If you're a bank, money keeps flowing in from mortgage payments and loans from other banks. That's how you maintain enough liquidity to keep paying out the money for all of those houses you're financing and all of the "cash back" loans you're giving to people who already owe you a bunch of money. Except for the questionable refinancing and the "cash back" part, all of that is traditional banking activity. But here's a new twist that resulted directly from deregulation. Your friends at the big investment firms say they know a way to reduce your risk and increase your profit. They buy your mortgages, convert them into securities, and sell them to other investors. Most of those investors buy more of them than they can afford by using leverage, and then they sell them to other investors who also use leverage. After a long chain of events, nobody has any idea what those securities would actually be worth if everyone tried to cash theirs in, but the investment companies are holding 700 frigging TRILLION dollars worth of leveraged obligations. When people start defaulting on their mortgage payments--which is what the whole house of cards is ultimately based on--the value of all of those securities starts to decline. A few weeks or months later when investors begin to realize what's happening, they start to panic. The investment companies are in big trouble. Meanwhile, banks are suffering from mortgage defaults, they can't sell any more of their mortgages to the investment companies, and banks stop lending money to other banks. They all begin having liquidity problems, since most of their so-called "assets" cannot be converted into cash. At the big investment firms, most of their so-called "assets" are now considered to be "worthless junk". But they still have obligations, and they're strapped. Then they find out that the companies who are supposed to insure their investments only have enough money to cover a fraction of all of those bad "investment instruments", and a couple of those insurance companies even go out of business. Oops. The game is up. It's the biggest freaking margin call in the history of the universe. The play money is gone, and there's about $10 trillion in bills left to pay.

So basically, the investment companies--and their Republican enablers--turned a $100 billion problem into a $10 trillion dollar problem. And you think that "disenfranchised" homeowners--and the Democrats who represent them--deserve all the blame for that?

Aside from low consumer confidence, which hurts sales, the problem that is affecting businesses the most right now is that credit is very tight. Our wonderful credit-based economy cannot run without credit. Businesses need short-term loans just to pay their daily bills--things like payroll, for example. Altogether, they need about $20-30 trillion to keep operating for a year. But credit sources are drying up. That's why the Bush administration said the original bailout was so urgent: we have to rescue the investment companies so that banks can keep lending out money to businesses to keep the economy going. (They said it, not me.) Now the Bush administration is talking about getting more directly involved in "commercial paper" (that means short-term loans). But not even a few trillion dollars from the U.S. treasury would solve the problem. To get our financial system back on firm footing by eliminating all bad debts and making credit available to everyone, it would take more like $30-40 trillion to cover everything. That is, if you expect the U.S. government to solve every problem.

Do you think the American taxpayers can handle a burden like that? The total GDP of the United States is about $14 trillion. By that particular measure, that's how much the U.S. produces on American soil every year. In other words, the American people do not make enough money in one year to solve our current economic problems. Let's look at some more numbers. The total worth of all real assets in the U.S. is about $30-35 trillion (and declining). Arabs already own about $10 trillion of the real property in the U.S., so we won't get another $30 trillion from them even if we sold everything to them. The U.S. trade deficit is about half a trillion dollars a year--that much of our wealth is being transferred to other countries every year. And our national debt, which hasn't really entered the picture yet because no one has been very worried about the federal government's ability to meets its financial obligations--at least NOT YET--is skyrocketing. It's over $10 trillion now, and by the end of Bush's term, it will probably be close to $13 trillion with all of these fancy bailout packages and glorious wars. Interest adds about another half a trillion every year, and budget deficits (thanks to Bush) have been adding about another half a trillion to the national debt every year. How much more do you want to add to the national debt? When it reaches about $20 trillion, and interest alone is over a trillion dollars a year, and tax revenue is only $2-3 trillion a year, I don't think we can prevent major defaults. Oops.

Let's put what you're talking about in perspective. 25% of the American population--including most of the "disenfranchised" people you're talking about--have a total combined income of less than 1% of GDP. Their total combined wealth is about $10 billion. And you're talking about a $30-40 trillion dollar problem. You really think you understand what's going on? I really don't know all that much myself, but I know better than to fall for phony Republican excuses that pathetically try to shift blame.
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Dowaco
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Post by Dowaco »

I understand that one party is not totally responsible. I was responding to DW's comment about Clinton vs Bush and the state of the economy during each administration. It is just as one sided to blame Bush or credit Clinton with the state of the economy as it is to blame Democrats for the economy or Republicans for the war. If you are going to simplify the situation into who was in charge when the excrement hit the fan, then you have to know who was in charge.

Congress passes laws and holds the purse strings. The President can ask for money but Congress can say no. They have not done that on Iraq or on the Bailout.

I'll admit, I am not an economist and have used credit as little as possible in my life. I know that saving my money and only spending what I can afford works for me. If the government did the same then we would be better off. I blame greed for the current situation. Greed for both money and power. Those traits are shared by both parties.
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Post by dragon wench »

@Dowaco,
Fair enough. However, I also said:
Granted, when it comes to the economic matters you can't entirely pinpoint a single source


This is also where personal interpretation and politics come into play. In my opinion, while the Democrats do bear some responsibility for the present situation, the Republicans, however, bear far more. Von Dondu explained it well and I don't need to add to her post. Add all of this to having spent somewhere in the realm of a trillion dollars on a highly dubious War in Iraq and you have a recipe for utter disaster.
I'm not sure history has ever seen a US administration quite this reckless and irresponsible.

However, I actually came to this thread to post something that I feel is far more positive. I'm not sure how many people watched Michelle Obama's interview on Larry King, but I just did and I come away wishing that she was the one running for president. Forgot about Barack Obama and John McCain! :D

Talk about [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YemNPkEScnw&feature=related"]intelligent, graceful, and articulate[/url].

If Sarah Palin had even a fraction of this woman's poise her running mate might actually have a hope.
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Post by VonDondu »

Dowaco wrote:If you are going to simplify the situation into who was in charge when the excrement hit the fan, then you have to know who was in charge...
Who is doing that?
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Post by galraen »

In this country it's really very simple, the Tories dug the grave and poisoned the chalice, New Labour poured it down our throats and are pushing us into the prepared grave.

What's totally dispiriting is that the idiots that form our electorate will simply turn round and vote in the party that dug the grave in the first place. We actually have an alternative here, but most people are too thick to take it. Sure there's a chance the Liberals may screw up, but it's a forgone conclusion that the other two will why not give them a chance rather than return to the failures that are the Tories again?

Is Nader running again? If he was I'd vote for him, he has to be preferable to the other two corrupt [expletive deleted]s.
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Post by Moonbiter »

galraen wrote:In this country it's really very simple, the Tories dug the grave and poisoned the chalice, New Labour poured it down our throats and are pushing us into the prepared grave.

What's totally dispiriting is that the idiots that form our electorate will simply turn round and vote in the party that dug the grave in the first place. We actually have an alternative here, but most people are too thick to take it. Sure there's a chance the Liberals may screw up, but it's a forgone conclusion that the other two will why not give them a chance rather than return to the failures that are the Tories again?

Is Nader running again? If he was I'd vote for him, he has to be preferable to the other two corrupt [expletive deleted]s.
Okay Galraen: I just spoke to my ex in Glasgow, and I would like to know one thing: What do you want? Seriously, what do YOU want. We are anonymous here, so I would really like to know what's yer need? The internet has turned us into whining little maggots with absolutely NO spine, so what do you want?

Edit: We are getting WAY out of line here... :D
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Post by Tricky »

dragon wench wrote:However, I actually came to this thread to post something that I feel is far more positive. I'm not sure how many people watched Michelle Obama's interview on Larry King, but I just did and I come away wishing that she was the one running for president. Forgot about Barack Obama and John McCain! :D

Talk about [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YemNPkEScnw&feature=related"]intelligent, graceful, and articulate[/url]..
I noticed something interesting about that interview the other day. It's funny how all the Democratic first wives (and the to-be first wives) seem generally higher educated than their Republican counterparts. I wonder why that is.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
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Post by dragon wench »

Tricky wrote:I noticed something interesting about that interview the other day. It's funny how all the Democratic first wives (and the to-be first wives) seem generally higher educated than their Republican counterparts. I wonder why that is.
Now there's a potentially dangerous question... :laugh:

I think I'll let the Americans here tackle that one... :p
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Post by Tricky »

I think it tells us something about their husbands too. The reasons may be not all that complicated, but I'm with you. I'd rather see some Usians come up with an explanation for that.

Edit: Oh and incidentally, I've been looking at the ladies since Carter. I just remembered Bob Dole, and it turns out his wife, a senator now, did attend university. She seems to be an exception.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
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Post by galraen »

Moonbiter wrote:Okay Galraen: I just spoke to my ex in Glasgow, and I would like to know one thing: What do you want? Seriously, what do YOU want. We are anonymous here, so I would really like to know what's yer need? The internet has turned us into whining little maggots with absolutely NO spine, so what do you want?

Edit: We are getting WAY out of line here... :D
I thought I'd made it fairly plain that I want to see a third way as an alternative to the Old Tory/New Labour cycle of failure and irresponsibility. As has been pointed out, the seeds of the current crisis were planted in the eighties with deregulation, and in this country that was accompanied by the carpet bagging of our essential utilities. Labour pretended to be opposed to that, until they managed to get their snout in the trough, when ll of a sudden their own narrow self interest persuaded them that it wasn't so bad after all. Simply put the Politics of Greed won the day. Would it be any different if the Liberals got into power, maybe not, but I'd rather they got in than either the Tories or New Labour.

My preference would be a modern day Clement Atlee, but that sad to say is just a pipe dream, so I'll settle for the Lib-Dems instead.

In the US election I'd love to see Nader win, but Usians are as dumb as Brits when it comes to voting for the same old failures in election after election!
[QUOTE=Darth Gavinius;1096098]Distrbution of games, is becoming a little like Democracy (all about money and control) - in the end choice is an illusion and you have to choose your lesser evil.

And everything is hidden in the fine print.[/QUOTE]
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Post by Dowaco »

VonDondu wrote:Who is doing that?
Dragon Wench did here: "...but given that the Republicans have been in office for the past eight years and that the Clinton administration left the nation in the black.. the mind simply boggles.."
She also said, :Granted, when it comes to the economic matters you can't entirely pinpoint a single source"

In my first post I said, "I am of the opinion that presidents should not take credit for good economic times nor should they be blamed for bad times. The economy is so complex that it has a life of its own."

I think we both believe that the economy is a complex beast to try and tame. DW tried to blame Bush and praise Clinton, which simplifies the situation into who happened to be at the helm when good times or bad times evolved. Its just as easy to construct an argument that blames the other side.

Interesting question about the education level of spouses. I will have to think about that.
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Post by dragon wench »

Dowaco wrote:Dragon Wench did here: "...but given that the Republicans have been in office for the past eight years and that the Clinton administration left the nation in the black.. the mind simply boggles.."
She also said, :Granted, when it comes to the economic matters you can't entirely pinpoint a single source"

In my first post I said, "I am of the opinion that presidents should not take credit for good economic times nor should they be blamed for bad times. The economy is so complex that it has a life of its own."

I think we both believe that the economy is a complex beast to try and tame. DW tried to blame Bush and praise Clinton, which simplifies the situation into who happened to be at the helm when good times or bad times evolved. Its just as easy to construct an argument that blames the other side.

Interesting question about the education level of spouses. I will have to think about that.
I wasn't actually attempting to simplify anything, rather I was highlighting a couple of brief points because I wasn't aware I was going to be expected to write an essay in order to demonstrate what has been painfully obvious over the last eight years. It is apparent to me, despite the myriad excuses Republicans have made to the contrary, that they bear the largest share of the blame in this current economic crisis. They know it as well, and they are doing their damned best to shift attention away from the US economy by attempting the usual feces-slinging so prevalent in US elections.
*shrug*
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Post by Claudius »

Yes and if Biden called for me to 'kill' McCain as Palin has done at McCain rallies (for Obama) I would probably not vote at all.
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Post by VonDondu »

Tricky wrote:I think it tells us something about their husbands too...
What exactly do you think it tells us? :)

I'm not sure how to put this, so I'll come right out and say it. Since you don't seem to know what you're talking about (and there's no reason why you should in a case like this--and no reason why you shouldn't keep talking about it, anyway), here's what I know. :)

With a few exceptions, I don't know much about the wives of unsuccessful Presidential candidates. That's a lot to keep up with. Are you considering the ones who ran unsuccessful primary campaigns, or only the ones who were nominated to be their party's candidate?

I'm not sure whether Rosalyn Carter finished college. I think she married Jimmy when she was a sophomore, and they had a son shortly after that. When Jimmy left the Navy and began farming, she went to work for the farm full-time. There's nothing "shameful" about that at all. She was considered to be an "active" First Lady when Jimmy became Governor of Georgia and, later, President of the United States.

Nancy Reagan earned a bachelors degree in Dramatic Arts and became an actress. She had a successful career of her own when she married Ronnie. (They did a love scene in at least one movie in which they both appeared.) She is a very honorable woman. The Reagans used to be personal friends with John McCain and his first wife, Carol, but after the way McCain mistreated Carol, they no longer treated him as a friend, and Nancy took Carol under her wing. As a (mostly) lifelong Republican and out of respect for Ronnie, she endorses Republican candidates. When she endorsed McCain this year, she explained her action by saying, "Well, he's the Republican candidate."

Barbara Bush dropped out of college when she married George, Sr. She was probably "majoring in marriage" or "working on an Mrs. degree", as we used to put it back at my university. She raised six children while George was away from home for various duties. Again, there's nothing "shameful" about that.

Hillary Clinton is one of the most ambitious First Ladies we've ever seen, and of course, she was a presidential candidate this year. I don't have anything against her, but I kind of wish she would go to work in the private sector and make bucketloads of money and be very happy and successful.

Laura Bush has a bachelors degree in Education and a Masters degree in Library Science. She worked as a teacher for a couple of years and as a librarian for a couple of years (and spent the next 30 years talking about it). Both of her daughters have college degrees.

Cindy McCain has a bachelors degree in Education and a Masters degree in Special Education. She worked for a year as a special education teacher before she married John McCain. She worked on her husband's political campaigns, did some work for one of her family's businesses, and became involved in various volunteer organizations. She is known for being a philanthropist (thanks to her family's fortune). She has raised several children (some of them adopted) after experiencing several miscarriages, so she has been busy at home as well.

When you ask, "What does that say about the candidates and their wives," I really don't know what to say. Most of them seem like ordinary people to me. Back on topic (if that's still an issue), I suppose that Sarah Palin's life might be considered a little more...colorful...than all the rest.
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Post by CanadianBacon »

Cant stand mcains vp.
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Post by dragon wench »

Claudius wrote:Yes and if Biden called for me to 'kill' McCain as Palin has done at McCain rallies (for Obama) I would probably not vote at all.
I'm pretty sure Palin did not do that.
Going by what what I remember from reading about said rally it was actually a supporter in the crowd that yelled to kill Obama and I seem to recall that the secret service is actually investigating.
Yes, the rallies have taken on a much nastier edge, but I don't think any of the candidates are actually stupid enough to advocate murdering their opponents.
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Post by Claudius »

DW I guess I got some bad information from my neighbor. I googled 'hanging Obama' and I didn't find Palin but just some other lokel yokels who had actually hung a doll or something over some scholarship to minorities...

Anyhow I don't watch TV and some of my news comes from word of mouth. I appreciate you setting me straight and I apologize profusely for spreading inaccuracy.

Thanks DW!
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Post by Tricky »

@ VonDondu's

I was not saying at any point that a lower level of education is a shameful thing. Pardon me for saying so, but that's an argument you are having with nobody but yourself.

Anyway, you want to know how my line of thought went once I noticed that difference in education. I wasn't at any point suggesting it was a solid argument, it may well be a coincidence and all. It's just that there's a specific group of men that can feel quite intimidated by intelligent women. I picture these men as dominant and conservative within the household. Conservative in the sense that they probably weren't raised much differently when they were younger.

I don't have much of a sense of what a 'beta family' would be like, where both parents have an academic degree. I wasn't raised in one but I know of people who were. Not many though, so they are probably a bad example. The three I know seem more narcissistic or prone to elitist attitudes than others, but I probably wouldn't even have been friends with them if I wasn't so incredibly charming myself.

Like I said, not much of a point. Probably moot. But you wanted to know and were accusing me of something that doesn't quite become me.
[INDENT]'..tolerance when fog rolls in clouds unfold your selfless wings feathers that float from arabesque pillows I sold to be consumed by the snow white cold if only the plaster could hold withstand the flam[url="http://bit.ly/foT0XQ"]e[/url] then this fountain torch would know no shame and be outstripped only by the sun that burns with the glory and honor of your..'[/INDENT]
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