Yet another new player - advices are needed

[GawainBS]

You can easily calculate THAC0 yourself.
It starts at 20. Warriors substract 1 each level, Priests 2 every three levels, Rogues 1 every two levels and Mages 1 every three levels.
STR (or DEX) gives a to hit bonus (which actually makes THAC0 lower, jay for logical AD&D) as well. Check your tables in the manual.
+ X from a weapon lowers THAC0 with X.
Weapon proficiency gives a bonus too. The manual has a table for that too.
Then there are a few items and spells that gives bonuses. Normally, all of them stack.

That's the biggest part of THAC0 calculation. If anything is unclear, ask away.

[Gray]

Enemy AC, as I've said before. There are no means to learn it via in-game methods, this part I've already got... now, maybe there are some unofficial tables?

[GawainBS]

Like I said before, there are some sort of tables in the game files with enemy AC, but I don't know how to get them. Poking around in some of the 2da files with a text editor might help. Be sure to back them up first.

[Majorman]

Just remembered somethng. A vital tip that can save you 2 stat points - raise the constitution above 16 only for warrior classes (paladin, ranger & fighter). All the other classes gain no benefits from constitution higher than 16. Thus, a fighter with 18 Con will get 4 bonus hit points per level, but a wizard with 18 Con will get only 2. This goes to show why AD&D kinda sucked.

[Gray]

Like I said before, there are some sort of tables in the game files with enemy AC, but I don't know how to get them.

Well, while I didn't find any, I just decided to test it with hit roll log on. After gathering some statistics I've realized several funny things

First, manual blatantly lies. It says that rolls are displayed in X + Y = Z format, where X is base roll and "Y is total non-character related bonuses/penalties. These include spell effects, fatigue and the like. Strength, Dexterity and magic weapon bonuses and penalties are applied directly to the character's THAC0." So, here they have lied - trice Weapon bonuses are not included in THAC0, as we've discussed above. Neither stat bonuses do - my 17str halfling (wielding much the same weapon as my 18/56 str halfelf) clearly receives lesser bonus. Spell bonuses, otoh, are actually added to thac0 - bless decreases it instantly on cast, for example.

Nonetheless (thanks to the manual), the second thing I realized was the source of extra damage (and +hit too): proficiency and stat bonus. Final formula includes:
hit roll bonus = enemy AC + weapon bonus + stat bonus (+2 for 18/51+ str for melee, +2 for 18 dex ranged) + proficiency bonus (+1 for 2 points in weapon skill)
damage = weapon damage + str bonus (+3 for 18/51+) + proficiency bonus (+2 for 2 points in weapon skill)

So, I did some tests with 1 unbuffed character fighting a single powerful mob (New Orog General, in my case). The third thing I've realized was the way to determine enemy's AC For example, my thac0 14 cleric hitting it with morningstar +3 (having +4 to hit because of just 18str and just a single point in weapon skill) was missing when rolling less than 7; my thac0 12 warmage with 2H sword +3, +6 to hit (18/56str and 2 points in weaponskill) had to roll 1 or 2 to miss, otherwise it was hit. A simple conclusion: this elite mob has just 3 AC This allowed me to calculate damage/round rates - FINALLY!

Kaylessa's Bow (and arrows +1):
hit: arrows +1, bow +3, dex +2, weaponskill +1 = 7 (which basically means ALWAYS HIT)
damage: arrows 1d6 +1, bow +3, weaponskill +2 = 7to12 = 9.5
speed: 3 attacks/round
dam/round: 9.5 * 3 = 28.5

Serrated Bone Blade:
hit: +3, str +2, weaponskill +1 = 6 (95% hit)
damage: 1d10 + 3 + 20% 1d10 cold, str +3, weaponskill +2 = 9to18 + 1to10*0.2 = 14.6
speed: 2 attacks/round
dam/round: 14.6 * 0.95 * 2 = 26.864

This was unbuffed. Even with the simpliest buff (bless) to hit becomes meaningless because it's "always hit with any weapon". This answers many questions... for example, this clearly explains that mage's Courage (+1hit, +3dmg) is better than Hope (+2 hit, +2dmg), or that my beloved Recitation is actually next to useless. The only important thing left is damage, so here it is (fully buffed - Courage + Prayer + Righteous Wrath):

Kaylessa's Bow (and arrows +1):
damage: 9.5 + 6
speed: 3 attacks/round
dam/round: 15.5 * 3 = 46.5

Serrated Bone Blade:
damage: 14.6 + 6
speed: 2 attacks/round
dam/round: 20.6 * 2 = 41.2

So... here we've got a fun fun game where you can fire point-blank, AND still do more damage than with melee weapons I wonder who would ever need "ranger aggressive" script to switch weapons - as it's better to just never pull out melee weapons :speech: Also, this is the reason to never cast any dd spells. Why would you, if even the simpliest spell of lvl1 still takes the whole round to cast (UTTER NONSENSE, if you ask me), and you can do 25+ damage with weapons instead?

Finally, list of useful spells is cut down to the following:
mage1: identify, chromatic orb (at lvl5+, for control purposes only)
mage2: ghoul touch, horror, web (depending on enemy type)
mage3: haste and a lot of slow
mage4: otiluke's resilient sphere (either ultimate protection or control) and a lot of Courage
mage5: feebleind and a lot of summon... something?

cleric1: heals only
cleric2: heals, sometimes hold person
cleric3: remove paralysis and prayers
cleric4: neutralize poison and defencive harmony
cleric5: righteous wrath and heals

Just remembered somethng. A vital tip that can save you 2 stat points - raise the constitution above 16 only for warrior classes (paladin, ranger & fighter). All the other classes gain no benefits from constitution higher than 16.

Thanks, but it shouldn't apply to an Absolute Party (tm), I guess The only char in my party which falls for this rule is cleric, and I guess next time I get a warcleric instead. Fighters ftw, be that melee or ranger fighters!

[Gray]

Well, there is the last unanswered question (just to remind): how can I make a script that auto turns on detect traps after every combat, every opened chest and so on, or where do I download it?

[GawainBS]

Try googling for, or ask around at the fora of [url="http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/"]Pocketplane Group[/url]. They're more technically inclined towards the game than most of us here.

[Gray]

Ranger dual wielding ANYTHING?

After I've completed IWD once, I decided to play it one more time after a short break, trying other classes, weapons and tactics. Noticed an interesting and potentially really overpowered thing: ranger, according to manual, has extra attack while wielding one-handed weapon without shield equipped - but in reality it gets extra attack with ANY weapon, 2H included! You can just start the game with a ranger in party that has 2 points in axe, buy him 2H axe from Pomab - and he's going to strike 2.5 times per round! This means possibility to hit 3 times a round at lvl7 (8?) with ANY uberweapon like Joril's Axe or Cairn Blade! I just can't believe it enough to actually include a ranger with axe skill in my new party... anybody confirm it?

Btw, I've got 1.05 patch downloaded and installed - maybe this is the reason?

[GawainBS]

This is well-known. I'm not sure wether it's a bug or not. I don't see it to be overpowered, since there's a neglible difference between 2H & 1H weapons.

[Gray]

Neglible?? Basically, there is just a single 1H sword which deals 9.5dmg at average - Aihonen (1d8 +5), which is available before the final fight only, while actual test of your party strength is Lower DD, IMHO (salamanders and giants). OTOH, 2H powerweapons of 9.5dmg are early available - Cairn Blade, Serrated Bone Blade, Joril's Axe... maybe some more I haven't discovered yet! The rest 1H swords, hammers and flails are 7.5dmg, with exception of Pale Justice, which is unusable by either fighters or rangers, and thus sucks. And, difference between 7.5 and 9.5 is 26% after all!

P.S. Nonetheless, thanks for confirmation! Going to include 2 rangers in my new party now

[GawainBS]

Personally, I find 2 damage to per hit to be neglible. It may be 26%, but % are relative.

[kmonster]

The blade of Aihonen is a 2-handed sword. The best weapon in the game is 1-handed btw, a random drop.

Rangers are not overpowered compared to paladins or fighters.

The paladins "protection from evil" lasts forever and stacks even with PfE from other sources, so paladins have permanent +2 AC and +4 to all saves. With Pale Justice shield +3 they have +6 AC and +4 to saves and a more damaging weapon which is quite a lot.
At level 9 fighters can have +++++ in a weapon which will give them the same number of attacks as a ranger and additional +2 to hit and +3 to damage. At level 12 they can also add a third star to the ranged weapon, making them superior both ranged and in melee, they also level faster.

[timortis]

Here's a tip about using Mages effectively: use elemental resistance items and spells and/or summons in the front lines.

Right now, I'm playing the game in HoF mode from scratch with a fresh level 1 party, and I couldn't possibly survive any battle without a caster heavy party. Casters are very powerful when played right.

The fundamental strategy is to scout with your Thief, find a choke spot on the map, lure enemies to your choke spot and bog them down with summons and disabling spells like Web, Grease, Entangle then unload AoE damage on them. You also have to use saving throw lowering spells to make sure they get stuck and resummon monsters as they die.

To give an example, my HoF party at level 1 was Druid, Fighter, Cleric, Thief, Mage and a half-elf Thief/Mage multiclass. I dual-classed the Fighter to Cleric at level 13, after he had 4 points in Maces and had 3 attacks/round. So with the exception of the Thief, I'm playing an all caster party. I would have liked to start the Cleric and Druid as Fighters and dual-class later as well, but HoF from scratch makes it impossible. You need the casters from the beginning, because none of your characters can withstand more than a couple of hits from a monster, Fighter or not. I also-dual classed the Thief to Fighter at level 28, after my Thief/Mage had become a good enough Thief himself to take over, to fill the role of a Fighter with a Slashing weapon, since my Fighter/Cleric can only use blunt ones.

Going back to elemental resistances, once you get a ring of Fire Resistance, and your tank has some gear to withstand a couple of blows before he gets blown to bits, you can cast Fire Resistance on him to get his resistance over 100% at which point you can safely lob Fireballs at his feet as he keeps mobs busy. If his resistance is over 100%, they actually heal him.

[timortis]

Also, learn to use the special abilities of summons to your advantage. For example, undead are immune to Horrid Wilting, so you can cast it without damaging your undead summons and it does massive damage. Druids have an amazing summon they get early on, bombardier beetles. These things explode and stun enemies when they take damage, so if you summon them into an AoE trap of your making that has spike stones etc, they will instantly explode and stun everyone in range, making easy work of a whole pack of mobs. Shamblers are immune to fire, as are, obviously, fire elementals. Summon those and go crazy with fire spells from your entire party etc.

[Gray]

The blade of Aihonen is a 2-handed sword.

O'rly?

Restored Blade of Aihonen (Long Sword +1, +5)
Damage: 1D8+1, +5 within a dragon's flight distance of Lac Dinneshere
THAC0: +1, +5 within a dragon's flight distance of Lac Dinneshere
Special: +5 Maximum Hit Points within a dragon's flight distance of Lac Dinneshere

http://www.ozkanulukok.com/Icewind_Dale_Item_List.txt

The best weapon in the game is 1-handed btw, a random drop.

Hmmm... implying Shocking Flail +4? It's 1d6 +5, +50% 2d3elec, which is basically 8.5+2elec=10.5. OTOH, Static Two Handed Sword +4 is 1d10 +4, +50% 2d3elec as well, which neats to 11.5! It's common sense... onehanders offer more protection (because of possibility to use shield), while twohanders are for more dps.

The paladins "protection from evil" lasts forever and stacks even with PfE from other sources, so paladins have permanent +2 AC and +4 to all saves. With Pale Justice shield +3 they have +6 AC and +4 to saves and a more damaging weapon which is quite a lot.

Argh, who ever needs defence... offence is da key! As for "more damaging weapon"... did you use Detect Evil a lot? Do you know that even Bladed Skeletons are NOT evil? Hehe... You can assume that it's a +7 sword against 2/3 of the enemies, at best - and +4 against others (which neats to +6). And, +6 sword in the hands of useless weakling unable to put more than 2 points in weaponskill is exactly as powerful as a common +3 sword used by a fighter with 5 points in weaponskill.

At level 9 fighters can have +++++ in a weapon which will give them the same number of attacks as a ranger and additional +2 to hit and +3 to damage. At level 12 they can also add a third star to the ranged weapon, making them superior both ranged and in melee, they also level faster.

Well DOH! I had to learn this hard way (as usual). I've been too damn tempted by 2.5 attacks at the very start of the game... Just finished IWD for the second time. Well, actually, it was like 2.5th time - I've started with a leading (and tanking) human thief at first, with intent to dual him into fighter after gaining lvl8 (i.e. 100% find/disarm traps with Girdle of Gond, and 45% pickpocket). But, once I've dualled it and became fighter - it didn't "unlock" fighters' str bonus, leaving him at 18str. It was like ARRRRRRGH!!!, erasing savegame and staring from scratch These 1.5 games have provided me with some rules to follow:

Races
- Humans are only good for dual-classing. Otherwise, they have no visible advantages over half-elves - there is not a single item usable by humans and unusable by half-elves.
- Dwarves are useless. You'd want to have more defence rather than more hps, while dwarves can't start with 18 dex.
- Halflings are utter crap Starting with 17str is like, eh, FIVE LESS DAMAGE per hit compared to 18/00 other races!
- One gnome is a must - to have advantage of using Helm of the Trusted Defender (see previous paragraph).
- Elven +dex bonus is not really useful unless for ranged spot, because 18dex and 19dex offer the same AC. One elf might be useful to counter dex malus of either Joril's Axe or Ring of Strength (we've got Kaylessa's Gloves to counter another item malus).
- The rest of the party has to be half-elves!

Classes
- Any pure classes but fighter are not worth it. You are never going to deal as much damage with spells as with weapons, which can easily be proven. As for protection/control spells - fighter multiclasses can offer them as well. Pure thief is JUST useless - increased backstab damage doesn't really matter in a long combat...
- Paladins suck because of the reason stated above: no extra attack, no extra points in weaponskills. Pale Justice is available too damn late in the game, and even THEN Valiant is better because of extra attack!
- Rangers suck as well, but it took me 2 full games to realize... At first rangers deal like 25% of the party kills each (because of 2.5 attacks per round)... but fighter catches up at lvl8 or so, and quickly excels after.
- Dual classes are not worth is, with a SINGLE exception. Fighter dualled to any class at lvl2 still sucks, because of gaining THAC0 as second class, and missing his targets a lot... no matter of extra half an attack. Any class dualled to fighter sucks because other classes start with 18str at best, which is -4 to damage! An exception stated above is thief dualled into fighter at lvl8, in case it is ranged attacker: you don't need thief skills any higher, nor you need str for using bows/xbows.
- Multiclassed chars have to be half-fighters, with a single exception: as a multiclass, you lose access to putting 5 points into weaponskills anyway, but keep rangers' extra attack, so you'd better to be ranger multi rather than fighter. Too bad, there is the only ranger multi in the game: ranger-cleric...

Soo... my latest party was the following:

- Half-elf Fighter (tank), Large Swords (x5)/Missiles (x3) - 20str with Large Shield of Strength +1 and Ring of Dwarven Bone, doing (1d8 +2+8+5+4) = 23.5*4 = 94 damage per round with Valiant.
- Half-elf Fighter, Halberds (x5)/Bows (x3) - my hero, 19 str with Girdle of Stromnos, doing (1d10 +3+2fire+7+5+4) = 26.5*4 = 106 dam/round with Doom Halberd +3 and Ring of Reckless Action.
- Helf-elf Ranger, Axes (x2)/Bows (x2)/some others - well, crap is crap, but I was too late to realize that... even 19str with Ring of Strength and Joril's Axe didn't help to fix that. Next time there is going to be elf fighter instead!!!
- Half-elf Ranger/Cleric, Maces (x2)/Missiles (x2)/Flails (x2) - 19str too, after quaffing Potion of Life Transference: (1d6 +3+7+2+4) = 19.5*4 = 78 dam/round with Fast Flail +2.
- Human Thief-8 -> Fighter, Bows (x1)/Large Swords (x1)/Crossbows (x3)/Great Swords (x5): (1d8 +1+4+3+4) = 16.5 * 4 = 66 dam/round with Heavy Crossbow of Speed, Bolts +1 and Ring of the Warrior Thief.
- Gnome Fighter-Illusionist, Bows (x2)/Great Swords (x2)/Axes (x2): (1d6 +2+4+2+4) = 15.5 * 5 = 77.5 dam/round with Long Bow +4: Hammer and Arrows +2.

Looking at my own calculations on the previous page, where I assumed 2 melee or 3 ranged attacks per round to be maximum - now make me *LOL* and "CRY* @ myself... :laugh:

Melee group started with 18/00 str everyone (yes I rolled A LOT). Warthief with max dex/con/int/wis for max lore, 15str for certain bows. Warmage with max dex/con/int/cha for lowest prices, 15str too. Most of the party has my preferred alignment (or should I say - MY alignment?): Lawful Neutral, with exception of rangers, which were made Neutral Good (because they have to be good - and, well, to be able to use Blessed Helm of Lathander ). Btw, here is a fun part! FAQ on this forum lies when it goes for mechanics of Righteous Wrath of the Faithful spell It is said that ones who want to receive +2dmg and +1 attack bonus have to fully share align of the caster... and lies twice here. First, it has nothing to do with caster (cleric) or target of this spell - but rather about having same align with char #1 in the party. Not its current leader, but char that was #1 at party creation! Second, Lawful Neutral chars are considered having "same" align with Neutral Good char, but NOT with Lawful Good! I guess it just calculates "sum" of the alignments :laugh:

Right now, I'm playing the game in HoF mode from scratch with a fresh level 1 party, and I couldn't possibly survive any battle without a caster heavy party. Casters are very powerful when played right.

Sometimes I wonder if we are playing the same game... is HoW THAT hard to play? or you're playing at maximal difficulty? My party has -13 AC tank (-16 with Holdfast and Mystery of the Dead), about -5 AC everyone else. They have killed Malavon without letting him to teleport twice. They've obliterated Belhifet in about 4 rounds, without losing 20 hps! What elems you are talking about? I only use them as umber hulk tanks, because these f**kers tend to turn my own powers against myself... the rest is tanked with sword/shield fighter EASILY! At the begin of the game, though, they just kill everything with bows/slings (unless inside crypts - i.e. at short distance).

The fundamental strategy is to scout with your Thief, find a choke spot on the map, lure enemies to your choke spot and bog them down with summons and disabling spells like Web, Grease, Entangle then unload AoE damage on them. You also have to use saving throw lowering spells to make sure they get stuck and resummon monsters as they die.

Oh my... I wonder if you sleep after every combat. I've started with lvl1 party as well, but finished the game in 57 days (was 108 days when I did it for the first time). Actually, I could have did it in 50 days or less, if not my greed (returned to Kuldahar/Severed Hand from UDD/LDD to sell stuff - should have sold to Nym instead)...

You need the casters from the beginning, because none of your characters can withstand more than a couple of hits from a monster, Fighter or not.

Fighters in splint/plate? Fully ranger party? Still doesn't work? Then there is something wrong with HoW

Finally, the things I didn't get... What the point of cleric scrolls? Cleric gains his spells for free at levelups anyway! And... what is "force attack", how do you perform it? I could have sacked Kuldahar once I completed Mythal quest (i.e. once I don't need it anymore), but my warthief was at lvl8 warrior stage back them (with thief skills inactive yet)... so I was unable to provoke attack with failed pickpocket, and still having no idea how to attack a NPC otherwise. Had to wait till 1 more level, waste 5 more days for travelling and return again later...

[kmonster]

You're right about the Restored Blade of Aihonen, it's 1-handed. I thought such a famous sword must be bigger :laugh:. So that's another reason why 2-handed weapons are not superior.

The by far best weapon in the game is the "Morning Star of Action +4", 2d4+4 damage, extra attack per round and 15% chance the target is stunned. It's a random drop if you've pure IWD, with the expansions installed you can only get it from one of the pregenerated HoW characters.
With the expansions installed you will find two long swords of action +4 which grant an extra attack per round and are therefore still far more damaging than the 2-handed weapons you'll find.

For the fighter-ranger-paladin comparison don't forget that paladins can also cast "draw upon holy might" for a boost which is especially useful when you reach high levels in the expansions. Those classes are balanced very well compared to each other. Remember that it took until chapter 4 for your fighters to get grandmastery and that you don't have flexibilty. If you hadn't been lucky with random drops your second fighter wouldn't have been proficient in a weapon type able to hurt iron golems or the end boss which require +3 weapons.

Dwarf isn't a bad race. You get +5 in the important saving throws and +1 to con. If you have HoW you can easily boost dex to 20 with the cat's grace spell, but you can't boost con this way.
Halflings are really weak in the first half of the game because of their low strength, but because of 19 dex and +5 to the important saves they're better than other races when wearing 19 str girdle.

Dualclass characters can be very powerful if used properly. Thief8/fighter isn't a good choice, a gnome multiclass would have more hitpoints, 18/00 strength, a bonus to save vs spells and avoid a long dualclassing period without thieving skills available. A F/M/T or a fighter9/thief would also be superior to your character.

A powerful dualclass build is Ranger7/cleric. You get the same number of attacks as the multiclass but gain access to the powerful level 6 cleric and druid spells at 750,000 XP.
Another example is a fighter9/illusionist. You've far more hitpoints and more attack power (grandmastery) than a fighter/illusionist multiclass and will be able to cast level 6 spells at 1,000,000 XP.


You're confusing HoW with HoF.

HoW is the official "Heart of Winter" expansion, which adds a new quest and upgrades the game, including the enemy AI in some areas, now groups work together and don't fight you one after another while the others wait in the Fog of War.

HoF mode is a difficulty setting which you can choose when you've HoW installed. Enemies get hitpoints*3+80, attack twice as often, do double damage per hit, have better AC, saving throws and thac0, ...



Cleric scrolls can be used for casting a spell without having it memorized. Imagine you're deep in dungeon and have a dead party member, a level8 cleric and a "raise dead" scroll ...

For force attack just click on the attack button to activate the attack symbol and click your target.

[Gray]

The by far best weapon in the game is the "Morning Star of Action +4", 2d4+4 damage, extra attack per round and 15% chance the target is stunned. It's a random drop if you've pure IWD,

Ahh, this one... Well, I didn't "take" it for a reason. You can loot either Shocking Flail +4 (10.5dmg) or Morning Star of Action +4 (9dmg) from Fleezum's treasury - not *both* of them. Also, there is an awful restriction in IWD: you can't have more than 5 attacks per round under any circumstances So, when your party is hastened, you'd prefer a slow but powerful weapon, because you are going to have 5 attacks/round anyway, while damage bonus never hurts (unless when it hurts an enemy ). So, I've decided that I keep my Fast Flail +2 with extra attack for common fights, and take Shocking Flail +4 from Fleezum's (instead of Morning Star of Action +4) to be used when hastened.

For the fighter-ranger-paladin comparison don't forget that paladins can also cast "draw upon holy might" for a boost which is especially useful when you reach high levels in the expansions. Those classes are balanced very well compared to each other.

Here it comes to the main question: HOW DO YOU MEASURE PARTY POWER? How do you compare two parties - which one is better? Granted, mages in most games are "nuke" class, which are able to deal insane damage in a little time, which can never be done by fighters... but then again, once mage it out of mana/out of memorized spells, it is as good as useless - while fighters' dps is steady, no matter how long combat is. In IWD mages can't do even that (major dps for a short time, I mean), but that's another matter. What I'm trying to say that fighter has constantly great dps, while pala can have superb dps for a combat or two... and it has to force the whole party to sleep after.

Some might say: so what, IWD is not limited by time - we can rest fully after every fight. But, then again - what's the point to compare parties, then? ANY party can waste hundreds of days sleeping, and still finish the game! We need a restriction, a test that would set casual parties apart from power parties. So far I was taking one I'm used to: possibility to gain maximal achievements in a minimal game time. Are you sure you manage to complete IWD (with no HoW) in 50 days or less with paladin in group?

Remember that it took until chapter 4 for your fighters to get grandmastery and that you don't have flexibilty. If you hadn't been lucky with random drops your second fighter wouldn't have been proficient in a weapon type able to hurt iron golems or the end boss which require +3 weapons.

I sure do remember that Moreover, I have TESTED it. As I've said, my ranger and cleric/ranger were doing about 50% of total party damage at begin (while fighters weren't uber-proficient in their weaponskills) because of their class extra attacks... but, then percentage fell down to 18% for ranger and 15% for cleric/ranger (while fighters were having 20% each).

Oh, and I'm ALWAYS "lucky" with random drops I'm a munchkin (kick me too, if you feel like it - but it won't fix anything anyway), didn't I say that already? Sometimes I had to waste about a hour rl to be "lucky again" with certain drop :laugh: 3rd floor of Severed Hand was a perfect example... I had to receive Ring of Dwarven Bone from Shadowed Orc Chieftain AND Bone Marrow Belt from Serated Skeleton - both generated on level entering, placed on monsters in different parts of the level, accessible by different ladders. But I did it!

Dwarf isn't a bad race. You get +5 in the important saving throws and +1 to con. If you have HoW you can easily boost dex to 20 with the cat's grace spell, but you can't boost con this way.
Halflings are really weak in the first half of the game because of their low strength, but because of 19 dex and +5 to the important saves they're better than other races when wearing 19 str girdle.

Well, we are speaking about different games... In HoW, maybe. In classic IWD, no. You don't have to care about defence, as simple as that As for spells... I've said before: you can't have enough spells for the every combat, unless you sleep often, and thus waste a lot of time.

Then, you get Girdle of Stromnos almost in the end of the game. Dunno about you, but I don't feel like playing underdog for the most of the game to receive slightly higher powers in the final fight.

Dualclass characters can be very powerful if used properly. Thief8/fighter isn't a good choice, a gnome multiclass would have more hitpoints, 18/00 strength, a bonus to save vs spells and avoid a long dualclassing period without thieving skills available.

As I've said, both of these hybrids would suck compared to pure fighter in the front row... OTOH, you don't need str for ranged attacks, while extra point in specialization grants +2 damage! On top of that, thieving skills are not terribly needed once you are out of Dragon's Eye. I did the following trick: quickly ran though Eye, without fully clearing all the levels, skipping Sheemish quest, Egenia quest, Marchon quest - just disarmed every last trap. Then I killed Yxonomei and her gang (this got my thief to lvl8), disarmed, picked open and looted her treasury, dualled my thief to fighter and THEN picked up Heartstone Gem :mischief: After that I had to just slowly walk back, harvest mobs and loot, and complete quests, which instantly took my newly made fighter to lvl5 or so... I didn't need a thief anymore anyway.

A F/M/T or a fighter9/thief would also be superior to your character.

F/M/T is discussable... 4 fighters in melee distance with ranged F/M/T sounds appealing. But then again, this puts cleric or cleric combo in the rear as well. There are quite a few bows and xbows of ultimate power (every single of them - random drop, but who cares...), but there are no powerful slings (and yes I mean slings with extra attacks). OTOH, there are power maces and flails available, so IMHO ranger/cleric in the front row plus thief8/fighter12 in the rear grant more dps than extra melee pure fighter and ranged cleric. I can calculate exact damage if you feel like it...

A powerful dualclass build is Ranger7/cleric. You get the same number of attacks as the multiclass but gain access to the powerful level 6 cleric and druid spells at 750,000 XP.

Hey ho :speech: Living through the Chap1, Chap2 and most of the Chap3 without a cleric? I think it would performance beyond any bonuses of having pure cleric later! What are these bonuses, btw? "Powerful level 6 spells", I mean?

Another example is a fighter9/illusionist. You've far more hitpoints and more attack power (grandmastery) than a fighter/illusionist multiclass and will be able to cast level 6 spells at 1,000,000 XP.

Well... lvl9 is Severed Hand. Defeating Yxonomei without mage - i.e. without being hastened? Either you are great player, or you didn't really test what you are speaking about

HoF mode is a difficulty setting which you can choose when you've HoW installed. Enemies get hitpoints*3+80, attack twice as often, do double damage per hit, have better AC, saving throws and thac0, ...

GEEZ! Does it provide more exp? To be short - is there any advantage to compensate SUCH A PAIN IN THE BUTT?

For force attack just click on the attack button to activate the attack symbol and click your target.

Weeee, thanks a lot!

[GawainBS]

The whole point of mages in IWD (and other Infinity games) is Battlefield Control, not "DPS". You bind up the monsters with Web, or some Summon.
Most of us here agree that a Bard is one of those "must have" classes, so you can easily permit your Fighter to dualclass at lvl 9 to Wizard, since the Bard will be there with his spells.

[kmonster]

Also, there is an awful restriction in IWD: you can't have more than 5 attacks per round under any circumstances

That's a manual error. You can get up to 5 attacks per round unhasted and 10 hasted. So nothing beats the morningstar or of action +4.


In terms of party power attacks per round are not the only thing which counts. If you can cast more and higher level spells (and cast all spells at a higher casting level) this offers additional options which I consider more useful than an extra attack which might raise the party's unbuffed attacks per round by lousy 7 percent.

Lets do a comparison at 1,000,000 XP, fighter12 vs fighter9/druid13, number of attacks per round and damage with the primary weapon are the same, Thac0 difference is irrelevant since with strength, specialisation and weapon bonus alone you'll be able to hit AC -1 95 percent of the time and there are many other ways to improve your thac0.
But you have access to druid spells and can shapeshift to boring beetle for immunity to slashing weapons with the right equipment.
You can render enemies immobile with entangle, cast 5 static charges for doing 65 times 15-112 (save for half) damage every second round while you're free to do other things. Outside you can add lightnings for even more damage.
You can heal more than 100 hitpoints with a single spell (useful if you want to keep the in game time low) or can summon high level monsters for doing damage and keeping enemies from attacking your party ...

Hey ho :speech: Living through the Chap1, Chap2 and most of the Chap3 without a cleric? I think it would performance beyond any bonuses of having pure cleric later! What are these bonuses, btw? "Powerful level 6 spells", I mean?
Well... lvl9 is Severed Hand. Defeating Yxonomei without mage - i.e. without being hastened? Either you are great player, or you didn't really test what you are speaking about

No one forbids you to have other sources of arcane or divine casting or to wait so long with dualclassing. Even a fighter3/conjurer can do serious damage, a ranger2/cleric will only be missing the half attack per round the multiclass gets at level 7, thac0 progression is similar but the spellcasting power will be far greater. A fighter/druid in the party can both fight and cast very well an can even get healed instead of damaged by enemy slashing attacks. You could also make the mage a cleric9/mage or or start with a figher/mage/cleric as double back up caster with high attack power, a bard would add higher casting levels, bard song and other options ...

GEEZ! Does it provide more exp? To be short - is there any advantage to compensate SUCH A PAIN IN THE BUTT?

Some call it challenge instead of pain. You get XP*4 + 2000 in HoF mode.

[Gray]

The whole point of mages in IWD (and other Infinity games) is Battlefield Control, not "DPS". You bind up the monsters with Web, or some Summon.

And the point of it?... With a AC -10 tank wearing Boots of the Fox (which makes him run ahead of the party), 90% of the mobs attack your tank, and they can't hit it anyway - so no real need for control. Maybe it is different in this "HoF" mode... but not in classic IWD.

Most of us here agree that a Bard is one of those "must have" classes, so you can easily permit your Fighter to dualclass at lvl 9 to Wizard, since the Bard will be there with his spells.

Bard? MUST HAVE? How so? Because of lore? A thief with 18int/wis has enough lore to identify 2/3 of the magical loot, the rest can be identified by mage combo. Because of extra dialogue options? It's not like they bring a lot of extra exp... So why? Crap dps'er, wearing crap armours... Well, in Wizardry series Bard is really MUST HAVE because of Drums of Speed, which grant haste with no fatigue. But, in IWD?

That's a manual error. You can get up to 5 attacks per round unhasted and 10 hasted. So nothing beats the morningstar or of action +4.

For real? ARRRRRGH! Black isle morons... wasted an another my party Well okay, but that's just only weapon - the rest powerweapons (Static Two Handed Sword +4, Doom Halberd +3, Foe's Fate, Long Bow +4: Hammer) are two-handed

In terms of party power attacks per round are not the only thing which counts. If you can cast more and higher level spells (and cast all spells at a higher casting level) this offers additional options which I consider more useful than an extra attack which might raise the party's unbuffed attacks per round by lousy 7 percent.

Agreed... though, so far I don't see any useful spells which have to be cast in combat, except for such common buffs/debuffs like prayer, RWoTF and Slow. Disentegrate and FoD look appealing, but either you can kill a mob way faster with common weapons (bows), or it's magic resistant anyway

Lets do a comparison at 1,000,000 XP, fighter12 vs fighter9/druid13, number of attacks per round and damage with the primary weapon are the same, Thac0 difference is irrelevant since with strength, specialisation and weapon bonus alone you'll be able to hit AC -1 95 percent of the time and there are many other ways to improve your thac0.
But you have access to druid spells and can shapeshift to boring beetle for immunity to slashing weapons with the right equipment.

Lets do. Which way, though? There are no damagemeters in IWD, and no way to install custom scripts/addons, AFAIK. Yes, in the final you probably get a more protected char with some spells - at the cost of having fighter powers disabled for 10 levels... Dunno, but I've finished the game at lvl12 both times So 10 extra druid levels is like... end of the game. Are you sure this going to improve your overall peoformance?

You can render enemies immobile with entangle, cast 5 static charges for doing 65 times 15-112 (save for half) damage every second round while you're free to do other things. Outside you can add lightnings for even more damage.
You can heal more than 100 hitpoints with a single spell (useful if you want to keep the in game time low) or can summon high level monsters for doing damage and keeping enemies from attacking your party ...

Casting a lot of spells = sleeping a lot = NOT useful to keep low playtime. Unless we agree at some kind of measuring party power, this discussion leads nowhere...

No one forbids you to have other sources of arcane or divine casting or to wait so long with dualclassing. ...

Well, the whole point of creating a 3-class char is to free a slot for a pure fighter... In case you occupy it with another dual class/multiclass to keep access to vital spells, what's the point?

Some call it challenge instead of pain. You get XP*4 + 2000 in HoF mode.

I'm a powerplayer... I don't care to do anything unless it pays off I don't care for "challenge" unless it provides more power. But, quadriple exp sounds appealing I'll try it some day... tired a bit of IWD for now.