Vatican defends Brazil excommunication

[LeoStarDragon1]

The Ten Commandments: Part 2.

Actually, in many Catholic countries, they celebrated "name days" when infants were baptized. I suspect that was because although they believed the soul was created at the moment sperm and egg came together, it wasn't truly saved until it was baptized. So that all children that didn't get baptized ended up in hell, which was really Christian of them.

Oh, yes, I remember that now. One of Grandma's friends, her name was "Marie", was always trying to get Grandma baptised at her church because of that very concern.

As I think I wrote above (I'm too tired to check), the RCC believes that they're in charge of the spiritual side of things. Abortion counts as killing a soul, whereas rape is something for the secular authorities, while sodomy is--well, it's something that's practiced and condemned by the RCC hierarchy. I really can't figure it all out. I once was offered the god position of this planet if I could, but I laughed, said, "You can't pin that one on me, copper!" and moved a universe away before they could rope me into the job. I may be crazy, but I'm not an idiot.

Well, yes you did! I was wondering if the source of that line of thinking was indeed the 10 Commandments though.

Hm. Do you and Marvin the Paranoid Droid hang out together?

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Fable]My impressions? The Vatican was getting such a mudbath from attackers on this one that they decided to look warm and cuddly. Especially since Ratzinger has done such a swell job alienating Jews, the Orthodox, Protestants, etc.[/QUOTE]
In complete agreement here. This new development looks to be nothing less than desperate spin doctoring and damage control, after the Vatican found their PR to have been severely damaged.

And in other news... [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7950671.stm"]while we are on the subject of the Vatican...[/url]

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I once was offered the god position of this planet if I could, but I laughed, said, "You can't pin that one on me, copper!" and moved a universe away before they could rope me into the job. I may be crazy, but I'm not an idiot.

And now we're all stuck with Yahweh... I'm not too keen on the crazy old koot, any chance you'd reconsider? You've got my vote...

Also @ Fable - On a side note, I was looking through some of my old uni assignments and found a piece (a mock 'program pitch' for a Cultural Studies unit) I think you'd appreciate...is there any way of sending you attachments over GB?

[fable]

And in other news... [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7950671.stm"]while we are on the subject of the Vatican...[/url]

Yes, I saw that recently, too. It's not that rare, either. I've seen other highly placed spokespeople associated with one religious group or another attack condoms as "endangering public health," and of course, they're utterly wrong. You would think a man once regarded as JP2's brains would know that religion can not remake scientific facts, but then, I seem to recall JP2 saying pretty much the same thing, at one point. Now, if only the RCC would assume responsibility in the secular courts for the horrific damage its people do with garbage like this.

In a highly amusing BBC radio comedy, Old Harry's Game, Satan has a special pit reserved for popes. There they are perpetually 9 months' pregnant, except for a few choice specimens who are in eternal labor. I suspect the latest Vatican inhabitant and his immediate predecessor would fit that last punishment nicely. Or am I not being one-with-nature enough by regarding them as enemies as humankind?

Hm. Do you and Marvin the Paranoid Droid hang out together?

Sorry, but stuff like I write above was being written by others and myself (as one of the least talented) for the last century. Adams just happened to hit at the right time, in my opinion.

Also @ Fable - On a side note, I was looking through some of my old uni assignments and found a piece (a mock 'program pitch' for a Cultural Studies unit) I think you'd appreciate...is there any way of sending you attachments over GB?

Your best bet is to simply copy and paste it, perhaps with some color and boldfaced, such as I did, above. Or you can make an image of it, put it up for viewing on a site, and link to that.

[jklinders]

Frankly the RCC's position on contraception mystifies me. is it because you supposed to have many many babies ? Or is sex a sin? On the first reason, having children without the capacity to take care of them borders on abuse, on the second I'll quote an entirely separate passed on 20th century writer "If God hated flesh why did he make so much of it?" Heinlen

[fable]

Frankly the RCC's position on contraception mystifies me. is it because you supposed to have many many babies ? Or is sex a sin?

No, it's very straightforward. The only purpose for sex, according to the RCC, is conception.

[Moonbiter]

I don't get the point here. Each time that relic puts his festering gob out, you guys go ballistic. Why? Do you worship acid indegestion? Sorry, but I was born in a Catholic country, and I go back every year. They are the most caring, thoughtful, warm and diverse people I know. The issues that the Vatican put out is as important to them and their everyday lives as any other hogwash from a nonsensical politician. Why do you guys get so fired up about this? It's nothing! Arseholes on parade!

[LeoStarDragon1]

Hello Forum!

Gordon "A.L.F." Shumway: "On Melmac, we pronounce it as 'Cat-holic', as being addicted to eating cats is a big problem on my home planet. On Planet Earth, the popular Melmacian insult, 'Your mother mates out of season!' is lost on Earthlings, albeit 'spring fever' looks like a mating season. Is it not true that on Planet Earth, shipwrecked Vulcans helped found your uh, 'R.C.C.', as you're referring to it here?

L.S.D.1: "Uh, 'Royal Crown Cola'? 'Remote Controlled Car'? 'Radio Controlled Car'? 'Royal Canadian Constable'? 'Rad Cool Cat'?

ALF: "No, none of those! This time it means, 'Roman Catholic Church'!"

LSD1: "Oh, them. Vulcans you say? Hm. 'Vulcan' also happens to be the Roman God of the Forge as Hephaestus was to the Greeks. The science of 'Vulcanology' derives its name from his, as his forge was thought to be a volcano and the oldest shrine in Rome is the 'Volcanal'." Maybe that's where you got the idea that Vulcans helped found the 'Roman Catholic Church'? After all, there were probably mass conversions when the Emperor at the time decreed it be so."

ALF: "Ah, that could be it. So many Earth languages linked together by shared words! It can confuse us 'Alien Life Forms'!"

LSD1: "I know what you mean! In Latin for example, 'vagina' is their word for 'scabbard' while 'penis' is their word for 'tail'! Imagine what happens when one puts his or her sword away in the wrong type of scabbard! 'Chasing tail' also gets a twist to it's meaning."

ALF: "Ouch! Hm. But is there anything more relevant to the thread topic?"

LSD1: "Well, like how some say 'Satan' is a name derived from the Roman 'Saturn'? Or how 'Yahweh' and 'Jehovah' refer to the same Deity? That some say the name goes back to 'Zeus' or even to a Titan?"

ALF: "I was thinking more about the Church's view of pregnancy abortion and other forms of birth control. That sex isn't for recreation, just procreation."

LSD1: "Oh. Well sex is too much fun for me, even if it is done for the purpose of procreation. I don't see a way to separate the two unless I become a non-Human species."

ALF: "Oh, okay. I can see that. What about Popes?"

LSD1: "Oh, I could go for a pizza right about now."

ALF: "Oh I get it! We can eat one in Rome, or Vatican City, and talk to the current Pope about the subject, in person!"

LSD1: "Huh? Oh! I thought you meant 'Pope's Pizza' over there across the street!"

ALF: "Oh, well that would be closer. Are you buying?"

LSD1: "Yes of course. We'll probably change the subject when we get there and start eating and drinking."

ALF: "Fine by me. I'm sure the others could continue without us."

[Demortis]

From the Times Online:

The Vatican has backtracked over the excommunication of doctors in Brazil who performed an abortion on a nine-year-old daughter who became pregnant with twins after being raped by her 23 year old stepfather. Archbishop Rino Fisichella, President of the Pontifical Academy for Life, said the excommunication not only of the medical team but also of the girl's mother had been a mistake. "Before thinking about an excommunication it was necessary and urgent to save an innocent life", he said. The excommunication had been decided on and publicised "too hastily".

Writing in L'Osservatore Romano, the Vatican newspaper, Archishop Fisichella noted that the excommunications had rebounded on the Church. "Unfortunately the credibility of our teaching was dented. It appeared in the eyes of many to be insensitive, incomprehensible and lacking in mercy." The girl "should have been above all defended, embraced, treated with sweetness to make her feel that we were all on her side, all of us, without distinction." Last week the National Conference of Brazilian Bishops admitted that the excommunications of the mother and doctors of the girl had been wrong. It said the girl's mother had acted "under pressure from the doctors", who told her the girl's life was at stake and she would die if she gave birth because she was physically immature.

Dimas Lara Barbosa, the secretary-general of the Brazilian bishops said "We must take the circumstances into consideration". He said that equally there was "no clear case" for excommunicating the doctors, since only doctors who "systematically" conducted abortions should be excommunicated. Earlier Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Vatican Congregation for Bishops, had backed the excommunications, saying the Brazilian bishops were right to take the view that the abortion was a sin. He said attacks on them were "unjustified."

Well, they have my vote!!!:mischief: Right, now their just makin the guy into a scapegoat... Gotta love the whole, "**** rolls down hill" phrase...

[Darth Malignus]

I don't get the point here. Each time that relic puts his festering gob out, you guys go ballistic. Why? Do you worship acid indegestion? Sorry, but I was born in a Catholic country, and I go back every year. They are the most caring, thoughtful, warm and diverse people I know. The issues that the Vatican put out is as important to them and their everyday lives as any other hogwash from a nonsensical politician. Why do you guys get so fired up about this? It's nothing! Arseholes on parade!

Well, those parading Arseholes represent 1/6 of the worlds population. A hell of a lot of people are bound to suck up that blabbering nonsense and live by it, causing endless amounts of grief to others in the process.

[LeoStarDragon1]

For Fable!

Sorry, but stuff like I write above was being written by others and myself (as one of the least talented) for the last century. Adams just happened to hit at the right time, in my opinion.

Be that as it may, I haven't seen the movie version of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" yet, nor own the DVD yet. But I have seen the British television series, albeit I don't own the DVD's yet, and I've read the novels, which I do have, plus I have the computer game and played it a lot. I kept getting Ford Prefect killed while brushing his teeth a lot. It just seemed like you'd paraphrased something Marvin had said, as I read that remark with the TV series' version of Marvin in my head. That's all! I felt this needed clarification. I sense bitterness on your part though.

As for the topic, aren't their policies mostly based around their belief in the Ten Commandments? Plus, their liberal forgiveness policy or policies, concerning merely going to Confession, confessiing, and then doing whatever the priest says is needed for forgiveness, and then they are okay, would of course seem a little lax to non-Catholics. Maybe even for Catholics who've commited minor sins by comparison. Oh, time to go!

[fable]

Be that as it may, I haven't seen the movie version of "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" yet, nor own the DVD yet. But I have seen the British television series, albeit I don't own the DVD's yet, and I've read the novels, which I do have, plus I have the computer game and played it a lot. I kept getting Ford Prefect killed while brushing his teeth a lot. It just seeme dlike you'd paraphrased something Marvin had said, as I read that remark with the TV series' version of Marvin in my head. That's all! I felt this needed clarification. I sense bitterness on your part though.

Not bitterness. Just anger against those that who in a world filled with suffering, find it necessary to prolong the suffering of others further to suit their belief or political systems.

As for the topic, aren't their policies mostly based around their belief in the Ten Commandments?

Who, the RCC? It's based on the NT directly, and the OT indirectly. Far too much OT, in my opinion. But you can find good pages on the RCC, even on the Web.

Plus, their liberal forgiveness policy or policies, concerning merely going to Confession, confessiing, and then doing whatever the priest says is needed for forgiveness, and then they are okay, would of course seem a little lax to non-Catholics.

Confession isn't liberal anything. It began as an attempt in the late Middle Ages, after the RCC had secured (at least on the surface) the better part of Europe, to enforce right thinking and actions among all its members. Tell all your sins, endure whatever punishment you receive (and some were very severe), and receive forgiveness from those who knew spiritually far better than you; or refuse to attend, and be excommunicated--which was a big deal among some classes, and in some areas where the RCC held a great deal of sway. Nowadays confession means a lot less, and of course, there's no guarantee that the person listening to you is any more insightful than a Jungian psychologist--probably less. But it still implies at its basic level that the priest is an intercessor between oneself and one's god, someone more spiritually knowledgeable and one of the elect. I don't deny that there are people who are spiritually more...advanced, for lack of a better word, than myself, probably bunches, but I don't think the RCC training necessarily produces this, or that it's my responsibility to allow them study access of my spiritual underwear.

And why would it all seem lax to non-Catholic Christians, who don't have to bother with confession, at all? I'm not sure I understand.

[LeoStarDragon1]

Still for Fable!

Not bitterness. Just anger against those that who in a world filled with suffering, find it necessary to prolong the suffering of others further to suit their belief or political systems.

Hm. I was thinking that you felt bitter towards Douglas Adams for being more successful than you, because he got published at just the right moment in time. I got that from you writing, "Sorry....." But instead, you're angry against the system that's covered by this thread's topic, right?

Who, the RCC? It's based on the NT directly, and the OT indirectly. Far too much OT, in my opinion. But you can find good pages on the RCC, even on the Web.

Yes! That's what I was referring to.

Confession isn't liberal anything. It began as an attempt in the late Middle Ages, after the RCC had secured (at least on the surface) the better part of Europe, to enforce right thinking and actions among all its members. Tell all your sins, endure whatever punishment you receive (and some were very severe), and receive forgiveness from those who knew spiritually far better than you; or refuse to attend, and be excommunicated--which was a big deal among some classes, and in some areas where the RCC held a great deal of sway. Nowadays confession means a lot less, and of course, there's no guarantee that the person listening to you is any more insightful than a Jungian psychologist--probably less. But it still implies at its basic level that the priest is an intercessor between oneself and one's god, someone more spiritually knowledgeable and one of the elect. I don't deny that there are people who are spiritually more...advanced, for lack of a better word, than myself, probably bunches, but I don't think the RCC training necessarily produces this, or that it's my responsibility to allow them study access of my spiritual underwear.

Liberal in the Democratic, non-Republican sense. See below.

And why would it all seem lax to non-Catholic Christians, who don't have to bother with confession, at all? I'm not sure I understand.

Well, those of us who aren't Catholic in any sense of the word, unless it is out of sheer curiority about what the experience is like in person, usually aren't going to go to a Catholic Church and confess anything, to witness it in first person perspective. So all we are left with are the portrayals of it in movies and in televison series. The impression we get, is you commit crime or sin X, go to confession, confess, get told what to say or do for forgiveness, you do it, and then you're free to sin again until next time. That's liberal compared to those who get hit upside the head a lot, get spanked, or otherwise physically punished somehow. Also, there are no fines or jail and prison time involved. People were saying, "Don't let them just confess away what they done! Castrate them!", et cetera, in regards to the sex abuse scandals of recent times. At least that's how non-Catholics were behaving around here. It was compared to those who are in favor of school spankings versus those who aren't, and those in favor of the death penalty versus those who aren't. "Confession" was seen as just talk as is saying a few Hail Marys, etc. Angered people wanted to use their weapon of choice against the offenders. That's what I was thinking of and referring to in my mind as I wrote what I wrote. I hope that clarified it somewhat!

[fable]

Hm. I was thinking that you felt bitter towards Douglas Adams for being more successful than you, because he got published at just the right moment in time. I got that from you writing, "Sorry....." But instead, you're angry against the system that's covered by this thread's topic, right?

Envy isn't one of my "sins." It's as I said: I'm just pissed that Adams always gets the credit for a brand of humor that was developed by numerous others, who never receive a mention, and were every bit as good, or better. For example, Robert Sheckley, in his novel, Mindswap.

Well, those of us who aren't Catholic in any sense of the word, unless it is out of sheer curiority about what the experience is like in person, usually aren't going to go to a Catholic Church and confess anything, to witness it in first person perspective. So all we are left with are the portrayals of it in movies and in televison series.

You leave me confused. I'm not RCC, never have been. Nothing prevented me from researching the matter. Hell, even Wikipedia has some useful info on it. Why turn to movies and television, fiction at its un-finest?

The impression we get, is you commit crime or sin X, go to confession, confess, get told what to say or do for forgiveness, you do it, and then you're free to sin again until next time. That's liberal compared to those who get hit upside the head a lot, get spanked, or otherwise physically punished somehow.

But who says a Roman Catholic child won't get physically punished at home, just as a Methodist child would? What does confession have to do with any of that?

Also, there are no fines or jail and prison time involved. People were saying, "Don't let them just confess away what they done! Castrate them!", et cetera, in regards to the sex abuse scandals of recent times. At least that's how non-Catholics were behaving around here. It was compared to those who are in favor of school spankings versus those who aren't, and those in favor of the death penalty versus those who aren't. "Confession" was seen as just talk as is saying a few Hail Marys, etc.

Because, as I wrote above, it has to do with the spiritual side of things (supposedly), not the secular. So the RCC deals with spiritual sins: you rob a bank, that's at the very least, greed. But secular human justice has other standards.

Mind, I have no truck with Catholicism, or the confessional. Or Christianity. Or monotheism. So perhaps somebody else that knows the religion from the inside, and isn't prejudiced against it, can speak more to these matters than I.

[LeoStarDragon1]

Please Pardon Me While I Still Write To Fable!

Envy isn't one of my "sins." It's as I said: I'm just pissed that Adams always gets the credit for a brand of humor that was developed by numerous others, who never receive a mention, and were every bit as good, or better. For example, Robert Sheckley, in his novel, Mindswap.

Oh, well, I wouldn't know who the originator(s) is or are. I used to belong to several book clubs in the 1980's, and had several subscriptions to various magazines. I used to be in the loop in that regard, but not street savvy. Then I had to jobs that helped with the street savvy, or social savvy. Whatever. Hm. I think I've heard of that title, "Mindswap". I may have seen even seen an interview with Robert Sheckley on some talk show. I don't know for sure. Like for example, I've got Greg Ferguson's show on now, and so I'm thinking maybe it was his show. Greg himself wrote a novel, but I haven't seen it for sale to buy it. But I also used to watch "Monty Python's Flyinc Circus", "The Goodies", and some other shows on "PBS". Then I used to watch "The Benny Hill Show" and "Dave Allen at Large" on a local station before it became a network affiliate. The nearest type of show like those that I see now, on "PBS", is "The Red Green Show", Friday Nights at 10PM just before "Doctor Who".

You leave me confused. I'm not RCC, never have been. Nothing prevented me from researching the matter. Hell, even Wikipedia has some useful info on it. Why turn to movies and television, fiction at its un-finest?

:laugh: It wasn't about research for me! I don't think that you're Catholic either. I was just extrapolating on one of your points! That it seemed obvious to me that if you preach "The Ten Commandments" and have "Go forth and multiply" as a bonus, that you'd place a higher priority on condeming pregnancy abortion then you would on what caused the pregnancy, even if it were adultry, fornication, or rape. That's all! (Like a school teacher punishing two students for fighting on the playground, without asking what caused the fight. She's only concerned that you made loud noises and caused disruption, not that John Doe called John Smith a very bad name, or stole his lunch money, or something. It's, "Oh, you killed your helpless unborn baby! Shame on you!" et cetera. Not, "Oh, by the way, how did you get pregnant and why?" and then complaining about the death of a fetus. Well, those are my analogies, be they as they may.) I once witnessed in the lounge of "Fetem Hall< a Jewish guy whose name I forget, and Lisa, a Christian lass, get into a random argument about who was more likley to go to Hell, him or her. That's what this thread reminds me of, sort of. But as for television viewing.... Heh!

I would've joined the "Official Couch Potatos Club" if the book had come along with a membership offer. I have the TV on to my left, while I do tasks on my computer in front of me. I refuse to debate the merits of how good or bad the fiction is, because it would be illogical to do so.

But who says a Roman Catholic child won't get physically punished at home, just as a Methodist child would? What does confession have to do with any of that?

I wasn't thinking of children, just the priests involved in the sex scandals. From an outsider's view, it would seem that they get off easy because they just talk about it in an "official capacity" by merely confessing to some guy in a uniform. Then only do "real punishment" if the news media becomes aware of it. Some people don't want to forgive people for certain acts. That's all.

Because, as I wrote above, it has to do with the spiritual side of things (supposedly), not the secular. So the RCC deals with spiritual sins: you rob a bank, that's at the very least, greed. But secular human justice has other standards.

Yes, I understand. I was merely commenting about those that don't.

Mind, I have no truck with Catholicism, or the confessional. Or Christianity. Or monotheism. So perhaps somebody else that knows the religion from the inside, and isn't prejudiced against it, can speak more to these matters than I.

Aw shucks, no need. I was just further elaborating on one of your fine points. Sorry for any confusion!