Warden's Keep, DLC's and CRPG's...a grim future

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:05 am

I just wanted to say how disappointed I am about the future of gaming, especialy of the CRPG genre, because of certain characteristics of the otherwise amazing Dragon Age Origins...

I have bought the retail version of Dragon Age, which contained two free DLC codes. One of them opened a questline about a Stone Golem companion, the other is suposed to give me a suit of armor.

My problem here is that the same NPC who opens the questline about the golem, is giving you at the same time a quest about the Warden's keep, a quest related to the general storyline of the game. During the dialog between the NPC and the main character, the later actually says that he needs some help in other to proceed with the quest...and yes...that "help" is about 7$. In a really amazingly immersive CRPG, my character actualy asked me,indirectly of-course,he is a nobleman afterall, to lend him 7$ in order to proceed with a quest!!!!!!!!

I already payed 43 euro to buy the game and they are asking me IN GAME to pay more in order to proceed with a story related side-quest!

If you are like me, and I thing that most CRPG players are, and you want to reveal every little secret of the game you are playing, then I do not have to describe the urge that I feel to give to these corporate £$%^&! seven dollars...but is it ethical to do so???

I know that similar phenomena exist in major RPG games like Oblivion and Fallout. But I expected more from a game who claims to be the heir to the throne of Baldur's Gate! Simply imagine Firkraag, in that tavern in Amn, asking you some dollars in order to proceed with his quest...

Sayne · Post by **Sayne** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:41 am

You can thank the Consoles for forcing the NPC to be in the game before you downloaded the DLC. If it were just a PC game (or if it had been launched in MAY when the PC version was done...) the conspicuous NPC wouldn't have to be there, he could just pop up.

That's one theory.

The other theory I have is that BioWare just got lazy about putting the NPC there while greedily drooling over the money the would make on he DLC. I don't consider BioWare a lazy development firm, but EA certainly is both lazy and greedy.

Oh well, it's still a fun game, though BG2 is still better.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:06 pm

Elevoros wrote: I know that similar phenomena exist in major RPG games like Oblivion and Fallout.

They do? Where? I don't recall coming across any "buy more downloads" ads in Oblivion or Morrowind (can't speak to Fallout). From what I can tell, this is just another stroke of genius from Bioware's Mensa-rated PR department.

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:14 pm

Sayne wrote:You can thank the Consoles for forcing the NPC to be in the game before you downloaded the DLC. If it were just a PC game (or if it had been launched in MAY when the PC version was done...) the conspicuous NPC wouldn't have to be there, he could just pop up.

That's one theory.

And that is a bad theory, as consoles do not force the NPC to be there before DLC is even out, unless the developers don't know their job well enough and don't want to learn it. Every game I have encountered thus far has had the NPC critical related to DLC brought to game upon the installation of DLC. Fallout 3 is one fine example.

So please, do not blame consoles for something they aren't guilty at. Not sure if it's Bioware's or EA's fault, but I would start looking guilty somewhere there.

@Fable @ Elevoros
No, such phenomena doesn't exists in Fallout 3, or at least I haven't ever seen such, and don't know anyone else who had. So if it really does, I'll like to know where.

Sayne · Post by **Sayne** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:17 pm

Hey, I never said it was a GOOD theory. I'm mostly bitter I've had to wait for a game that's been complete since May so BioWare could release it on Xbox.

I bought the Steam Deluxe edition, so no NPC telling me to buy stuff for me. ^_^

endboss · Post by **endboss** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:28 pm

So this NPC just stands there and asks you to buy DLC? Is there a way to remove him and others like him from the game?

Aqua-chan · Post by **Aqua-chan** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:39 pm

endboss wrote:So this NPC just stands there and asks you to buy DLC? Is there a way to remove him and others like him from the game?

There are two. The first one I met was stationed in my camp site, and requests help liberating the Warden's Keep. If you say you will help and do not have the DLC, the game is saved, closed, and you are taken to the purchase menu to buy it.

You are, of course, free to decline.

Sayne · Post by **Sayne** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:41 pm

Sayne wrote: I bought the Steam Deluxe edition, so no NPC telling me to buy stuff for me. ^_^

Sorry, that was kind of a douche baggy thing of me to say.
*Cartman voice*
"Na na na na naa na, hah ha ha ha haa ha - I did what BioWare wanted and gave them an extra $15...."

Sigh.

jklinders · Post by **jklinders** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:58 pm

I decided to think about this a bit before weighing in. This could be the most odious example of product placement I have ever seen in a game. At least in other examples I have seen, the developers had the good grace to only take companies money in exchange for product placement.

But here we are seeing an example of a built in game mechanic that screams "hey, your game is not complete buy more crap from us and have a more complete game and just to make sure you never forget it we have this douche in the camp with a massive exclamation point over his head."

I have yet to decide just how upset to get over this, but I will not buy Mass Effect 2 until I see if the same stunt is pulled there. Depending on my mood, Bioware may have seen it's last sale from me.

Ragin Cajun · Post by **Ragin Cajun** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:06 pm

I'm glad I got everything but Warden's Keep when I pre ordered.

Honestly, if it's $7 or something like that I will probably buy it as some future point. Maybe finish my first character run through and then go back to some of the secondary characters I made to check them out and see if I can find anything new I missed. Then, and only then, I'll probably buy it. It's not like I wouldn't buy an expansion or something anyway and this is certainly cheaper than an expansion. Kind of reminds me of that third expansion for NWN that was only about $5 and didn't have a whole lot to it.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:22 pm

Ragin Cajun wrote:Honestly, if it's $7 or something like that I will probably buy it as some future point. Maybe finish my first character run through and then go back to some of the secondary characters I made to check them out and see if I can find anything new I missed. Then, and only then, I'll probably buy it. It's not like I wouldn't buy an expansion or something anyway and this is certainly cheaper than an expansion. Kind of reminds me of that third expansion for NWN that was only about $5 and didn't have a whole lot to it.

That's pretty much how I feel. I'll play through the game a couple of times and then I'll only buy the extra bit if I am impressed enough with it. If the game turns out to be something I'm not that bothered about playing it again then I won't bother. To be honest, I think its ridiculous that you pay a fortune for a game and then its not even complete. If the Warden's Keep was an expansion that was released at a later date then I could understand it

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:55 pm

They do? Where? I don't recall coming across any "buy more downloads" ads in Oblivion or Morrowind (can't speak to Fallout). From what I can tell, this is just another stroke of genius from Bioware's Mensa-rated PR department.

Yeah you're right it is not like this in Oblivion, although from what I remember there is payed DLC, like the armored horse for example. Of-course that is quite different than an in game add for DLC which leads to a questline, but then the idea of having extra payed content is the same.

Anyway, I find the idea of rl money mingling in my RPG playthrough experience appaling, even if it is only one dollar.

The only currency I want to see in my RPG's are gold coins! (or the equivalent of every setting)

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:08 pm

No, such phenomena doesn't exists in Fallout 3, or at least I haven't ever seen such, and don't know anyone else who had. So if it really does, I'll like to know where.

Kipi: It was a far-fetched example of mine about how the "expansion" system in fallout 3 works. I personally think that most of the "expansions" are glorified questlines and patches hacked to pieces and served for more profit... (for example you will buy the "expansion" and then it will appear in the game world as a quest)

But that's a different topic I think. I'm sorry if my example dissoriented you a bit, but I was really upset when I wrote that first post...

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:23 am

Penny Arcade has discussed this phenomenom a little as well,

Penny Arcade - A Truly Fascinating Phenomenon

and have an interesting take on it. To quote Tycho,

"I spent much of the weekend thinking about the in-game sales force Bioware leveraged in Dragon Age, mostly while playing Dragon Age itself, and I'm not unsympathetic to the challenge they face. They make games which take a billion years to develop, and represent the output of more than a hundred sentients, but when their competitors make a game where you shoot nazi zombies they're somehow able to parley that into tens of millions of dollars in DLC. Bioware is in the business of making more complex, more sophisticated entertainment and then harvesting a diminished return, which ain't no kinda bidness at'all."

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:55 am

I will respond with a quote from your link!

"Like Oblivion, the scope of the Dragon Age experience provides some built-in protection from assertions that the base experience is incomplete without the content. There was a time when companies demurred when discussing downloadable content at launch, other than the most routine assurances that maps - of some kind - would be forthcoming. Now, we've reached a new threshold, where Day One DLC and the promise of Two Years of unrelenting premium offers are the goal - where pitchmen emerge unbidden in our role-playing games and try sell us valor a la carte.

Incredible. "

And that is what makes me think that the "days of innocense" in CRPG gaming are gone forever...

Curry · Post by **Curry** » Tue Nov 10, 2009 12:00 pm

This is one of the reasons I just uninstalled Dragon Age.

One can just hope Alpha Protocol isn't total bull like this

stanolis · Post by **stanolis** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:32 am

from the 360 users, i apologize that bioware made you wait a few months for the release on both platforms. however, this was a decent tactic for them. if they released the pc version and it tanked. remember all the screaming about the low graphics etc. then who would have waited to buy it on the 360. when they are released on the date for multiple platforms, everyone is in the dark, hype is still high, and the money rolls.

I bought the collector edition, plus the warden's keep dlc before creating my character and starting the game. i don't usually do that, but i was only missing one thing and there were still ms points on my account. i caved.

i am thoroughly against buying dlc to make a game 'playable'. everything in game should work while giving you a decent and enjoyable experience.

i am not sure if i would have been offended if i saw a npc yelling for help and then being wisked to a buy screen. i think it was smart of them to place that npc there to let you know that dlc exists. although, they already put a special section in the very beginning (new game, load game) to show you all the downloads availible.

you can be sure that this is a very slick slope and if players are not careful, the developers will take advantage of us. each companion party member could have easily been purchase-able

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 11:53 am

stanolis wrote:you can be sure that this is a very slick slope and if players are not careful, the developers will take advantage of us. each companion party member could have easily been purchase-able

They already have taken advantage of us, in this game. The point is, will enough people be turned off by it not to buy the DLC, and show Bioware in no uncertain terms that it doesn't work? Nothing else will do this: certainly no silly petitions, demands that Bioware stop, or promises not to buy Bioware games in the future.

GoldDragon · Post by **GoldDragon** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:54 pm

I don't have the Warden's Keep DLC, and was able to talk to the guy. I just told him that I'd think about it. It ends the conversation without trying to purchase.

THe lack of the DLC doesn't make the game unplayabe. You just miss out on a few things.

Elevoros · Post by **Elevoros** » Thu Nov 12, 2009 4:35 pm

THe lack of the DLC doesn't make the game unplayabe. You just miss out on a few things.

For many people the fact that they know that they will miss out on a few things, does make the game unplayable!