Science Scandal on Global Warming(spam on topic)

[jklinders]

But they recognize that the industries who have their own bias share a synergistic support. As long as they all heap false numbers and complaints on climate change, many people without the focus, energy, or logical tools to discern otherwise will simply respond, "Golly, if all those different sources complain about this, there must be something to it!" One snakeoil salesperson offering swampland is easier for them to discount than 100 snakeoil salespersons all saying the same thing.

...which makes it all the more important that the methods and ethics and practices of the climate scientists be beyond reproach. What I am hoping comes out of the inevitable inquiry is a more open peer review process. maybe miracle of miracles someone will find that lost raw data and put this bad boy to rest.

[fable]

...which makes it all the more important that the methods and ethics and practices of the climate scientists be beyond reproach.

Know what? That wouldn't make a shred of difference. The anti-climate change guns didn't have any ammunition until now, so they've simply been literally making it up. And Coburn has been lying about climate change data for years.

What I am hoping comes out of the inevitable inquiry is a more open peer review process. maybe miracle of miracles someone will find that lost raw data and put this bad boy to rest.

I'm all for keeping things above board, but let's face it: this isn't going to be put to rest, anymore than the endless lies are put to rest. You can't have one side be all ethical while the other side resorts to as much sleaze as money can buy, and expect anything good of the result.

[Xandax]

<snip>
You can't have one side be all ethical while the other side resorts to as much sleaze as money can buy, and expect anything good of the result.

Unfortunately - that is correct.
The only thing which will ever work is common sense and logical approach. Something which unfortunately is lacking in huge amounts for some reason - when it comes to something like this where ideology and bias seems to be able to overrule reason.

It is strange that even with this threat that there's this amount of .... well hogwash floating around that suddenly we need to care whether some e-mails from one part contain questionalbe stuff when so much sewage have been released from other parts and are all but ignored by the same who now are up in arms. Wanting one part to take a "high road" is an easy thing to state, but naive and rather hypocritical, when that part is facing a side which are constantly going about the "low roads".

[fable]

It is strange that even with this threat that there's this amount of .... well hogwash floating around that suddenly we need to care whether some e-mails from one part contain questionalbe stuff when so much sewage have been released from other parts and are all but ignored by the same who now are up in arms. Wanting one part to take a "high road" is an easy thing to state, but naive and rather hypocritical, when that part is facing a side which are constantly going about the "low roads".

This might help clarify why there are so many climate change deniers. Though I would expand Digby's thoughtful comments by noting that on the international front, a lot of the deniers appear to espouse the same values she sees among USian deniers--and that many of them appear to be from either rural areas, or work for industrial businesses with large environmental footprints.

[Chanak]

@fable: I was pondering the powerful anti-intellectual sentiment that festers in right-wing circles as I perused a few videos a friend of mine posted on facebook regarding this topic earlier this morning. I think that lies very close to the core of right-wing programming and is part of the training regimen used to condition a prospect to think and behave in the desired manner. In fact, it reminds me of how I used to train dogs to obey my verbal commands. It was all in the tone of my voice...not what I actually said.

[fable]

@fable: I was pondering the powerful anti-intellectual sentiment that festers in right-wing circles as I perused a few videos a friend of mine posted on facebook regarding this topic earlier this morning. I think that lies very close to the core of right-wing programming and is part of the training regimen used to condition a prospect to think and behave in the desired manner. In fact, it reminds me of how I used to train dogs to obey my verbal commands. It was all in the tone of my voice...not what I actually said.

I agree. I think that's how many animal pets (and human infants) perceive commands/suggestions: by a mix of facial expression, intonation, and least importantly, word content. If parents train up children this way, and quite a few do, then they're not creating thinkers, but social followers--which is considered a virtue in many sub-cultures.

[Jordoo]

Global climate change is very real, its been going on long before humans were around. Its a cycle like all things in the natural world, its just part of a cycle thats so long we have not been and may not be around long enough to identify it. The beleif that humans can somehow have a lasting climate effect on something that will be around long after we are gone is quite humorous if you really think about it. Whatever we do to the earth, it will recover and although in human terms the recovery time might seem long it will be but the blink of an eye to the earth.

That being said, its still in our best interest do to whatever little bit we can to keep the planet as suitable for human life as possible. Global warming has been exploited as a way to make alot of money in the last 10 years which really angers me. I am still not firmly convinced that anything other than a greater population of humans and cows has had any measurable effect on global warming. I'm all for using renewable resorces, energies, biodegratable materials, planting trees, gardens and conserving nature. Still I feel its unreasonable to think that we can considerably change or avoid the natural cycles of the earth that are undoubtedly tied to the natureal cycles or our solar system and that to our galaxy and that to universe ........

In short I do my part enjoy life and don't worry about it much at all.

just my opinion

[Chanak]

I agree. I think that's how many animal pets (and human infants) perceive commands/suggestions: by a mix of facial expression, intonation, and least importantly, word content. If parents train up children this way, and quite a few do, then they're not creating thinkers, but social followers--which is considered a virtue in many sub-cultures.

And thus you touch upon the ugly root that has opposed rational, scientific inquiry throughout the course of human history. Copernicus...Galileo...Charles Darwin...whenever progress emerges to lead the human race onward, the specters of fear arise to beat back anyone who dares to think for themselves. A human herd is created when the very thing that makes us uniquely human...the ability to engage in rational thought...is oppressed. Herd animals are easier to control that actual individuals of Homo Sapiens.

I cannot help but giggle at the sycophants who would have me believe otherwise. Seriously, fable, I would rather hang out inside the Gorilla habitat at work (I work for a zoo) than hang around some of the streets in the city at night. I would be more safe and secure around a Silverback and his family group than I would be around the much more dangerous and unpredictable human ape. The Silverback would not mug me, rob me, or attack me out of pleasure. I can't say the same about a human ape, though...

Ah, but I am straying off topic. Those who flat-out deny the global warming trend...or claim there is nothing we can do about it...are doing everything they can to discredit rational, scientific inquiry that says otherwise. They lead masses of humanity who have been conditioned to respond like herd animals. The camp that begins by denying it completely will, when it is convenient for their cause, suddenly lapse into agreeing that the globe is indeed undergoing a warming trend, but by golly, it's not the fault of the fluorocarbon-spewing goliaths of Big Oil and Sacred Industry. It's not our fault for treating the environment carelessly. Oh no, it's just good ol' Mother Nature taking her course. No, humanity has nothing to do with speeding things along, and there's just nothing we can do about it, now is there? No, of course not. Big Daddy Oil will produce a number of studies that seem to support this claim. By the way, this program was brought to you by FossilCorp...better living through Fluorocarbons!

[galraen]

I am still not firmly convinced that anything other than a greater population of humans and cows has had any measurable effect on global warming.

Just consider how many millions of tons of coal humans have burned, how many millions of gallons of oil we've burned in the last three hundred years, continually spewing excess CO2 and other gases into the atmosphere during that period. How anyone can even begin to deny that has had a massive impact is mind boggling, and everyone I personally know who turns a blind eye to it has an ulterior motive.

[Chanak]

@Jordoo: I hope you're prepared to have your opinion questioned.

The following comment you made piques my interest:

Global warming has been exploited as a way to make alot of money in the last 10 years which really angers me.

Indeed. And who stands to make alot of money, pray tell? Perhaps you are forgetting the multi-billion-dollar oil industry, who stands to lose a great deal if human civilization seeks alternatives to free themselves from slavery to their product?
What should anger you more: an industry who will stop at nothing to keep themselves rich at your expense, or scientists who claim that humanity needs to change in order to prevent disaster overtaking our civilization? I know where my anger lies.

The beleif that humans can somehow have a lasting climate effect on something that will be around long after we are gone is quite humorous if you really think about it

Is it? I find nothing funny about the human race's ability to devastate this planet. Consider, if you will, that never before has an animal existed on this planet that possesses the ability to radically alter the very climate in a matter of a few very fateful seconds. I refer, of course, to the detonation of a thermonuclear weapon, which has a devastating effect on the planet. Even the big oil folks can't deny that...because it's been proven before. Nagasaki, Hiroshima...and those were miniscule in comparison to what humanity is capable of doing today. There is nothing humorous at all about it.

You are misguided, indeed, if you believe for a moment that the human race is incapable of changing the face of this planet. Thermonuclear warfare is but one way we could radically alter planet Earth. We are already having a tremendous impact thanks to our lifestyle and the tremendous amounts of greenhouse gases our daily lives and industry release into the atmosphere. The amount is staggering.

[The Z]

Is it? I find nothing funny about the human race's ability to devastate this planet. Consider, if you will, that never before has an animal existed on this planet that possesses the ability to radically alter the very climate in a matter of a few very fateful seconds. I refer, of course, to the detonation of a thermonuclear weapon, which has a devastating effect on the planet. Even the big oil folks can't deny that...because it's been proven before. Nagasaki, Hiroshima...and those were miniscule in comparison to what humanity is capable of doing today. There is nothing humorous at all about it.

You are misguided, indeed, if you believe for a moment that the human race is incapable of changing the face of this planet. Thermonuclear warfare is but one way we could radically alter planet Earth. We are already having a tremendous impact thanks to our lifestyle and the tremendous amounts of greenhouse gases our daily lives and industry release into the atmosphere. The amount is staggering.

One thing I have to add to this is that humans have already found ways to 'play with the weather' if you will. I've been living in Beijing for the last four months and it's kind of scary when you think about it, but the government (when there's been a large dry spell) actually pumps chemicals into the air to speed the precipitation process, thus leading to rain. I believe the technology is called cloud-seeding shells. China is not the first country to use this.

If you're wondering why the air was clear for the day of the opening ceremonies for the 2008 Olympic Games, this is why. The night before, rain is almost created and the following day blue sky 'magically' appears. They did this again for the PRC's 50th anniversary celebration just this past October. Whenever there's a severe drought, they will also use this technology.

Things can even go wrong. One time when the government was trying to do this, the air was so cold that the rain that was forced out turned into snow. Imagine my surprise when (after a mild day) I left the bar at night and found it snowing in the beginning of November (in Beijing, that's not supposed to happen). Also, the smog always returns after a day or two.

If you doubt me, simply look up the Beijing Weather Modification Office, or type in "China making rain" into Google and check out the results.

Regardless, think to yourself...if man has figured out how to do this (for better or for worse), what else is he capable of?

[Jordoo]

Just consider how many millions of tons of coal humans have burned, how many millions of gallons of oil we've burned in the last three hundred years, continually spewing excess CO2 and other gases into the atmosphere during that period. How anyone can even begin to deny that has had a massive impact is mind boggling, and everyone I personally know who turns a blind eye to it has an ulterior motive.

First I have no ulterior motive. Population growth is what drives all the things you mention. Its not that they don't have an effect, but in the big picture its the population growth that is the biggest danger to mans existance on this planet IMO.

[Jordoo]

@Jordoo: I hope you're prepared to have your opinion questioned.

The following comment you made piques my interest:



Indeed. And who stands to make alot of money, pray tell? Perhaps you are forgetting the multi-billion-dollar oil industry, who stands to lose a great deal if human civilization seeks alternatives to free themselves from slavery to their product?
What should anger you more: an industry who will stop at nothing to keep themselves rich at your expense, or scientists who claim that humanity needs to change in order to prevent disaster overtaking our civilization? I know where my anger lies.



Is it? I find nothing funny about the human race's ability to devastate this planet. Consider, if you will, that never before has an animal existed on this planet that possesses the ability to radically alter the very climate in a matter of a few very fateful seconds. I refer, of course, to the detonation of a thermonuclear weapon, which has a devastating effect on the planet. Even the big oil folks can't deny that...because it's been proven before. Nagasaki, Hiroshima...and those were miniscule in comparison to what humanity is capable of doing today. There is nothing humorous at all about it.

You are misguided, indeed, if you believe for a moment that the human race is incapable of changing the face of this planet. Thermonuclear warfare is but one way we could radically alter planet Earth. We are already having a tremendous impact thanks to our lifestyle and the tremendous amounts of greenhouse gases our daily lives and industry release into the atmosphere. The amount is staggering.

I think that the "million-billion dollar oil industries" will simply move there power to controlling the next form of energy whatever it is, remember they don't care so much what they are making money off of as long as they are making it.

Yes the human race can make the earth unlivable for humans and many other forms of life but we can't wipe life off this planet. No matter what we did the planet would recover quite easily IMO. New forms of life would develope and evolve from whatever was left and the cycle of life would continue. You hav eto think big picture time frame wise but in terms of the earth it wouldn't really take that long.

[galraen]

First I have no ulterior motive. Population growth is what drives all the things you mention. Its not that they don't have an effect, but in the big picture its the population growth that is the biggest danger to mans existance on this planet IMO.

No, it was iindustrialisation that drives them, and the invention of machines that use coal and/or oil, not population growth. Population growth has been going on all through human history, with occasional regression due to disease epidemics and war. Humans adding to the amount of carbon and other polutants in the atmosphere has increased with population growth, but totally insignificantly in comparison to the amount we've been putting up since the industrial revolution. Ten million people living in an agricultrial country create minimal pollution compared to 100,000 living in an industrial city.

[Xandax]

I think that the "million-billion dollar oil industries" will simply move there power to controlling the next form of energy whatever it is, remember they don't care so much what they are making money off of as long as they are making it.
<snip>

Not to offend, but I suspect you don't know much about business?
The "simple move" to the next form of energy is an uncertain and expensive move when keeping the status quo is a much cheaper state.

There's a reason why car companies aren't as far along with hybrid cars or alternative fueled cars as technology allows, because it is an expensive investment which might not pay off at all.
It is the same with "oil industry" which is build up - hard - upon the oil .... thus the name "oil industry".
The status quo is a much more profitable state - so if you can keep people ignorant and oblivious, the short term benefits are far greater. It is also why the OPEC countries want compensation for people not buying their oil, because their entire economy is resting on that foundation.

You're opinion seems based in, and continued, in lack of information/understanding or even naivety.

<snip>No matter what we did the planet would recover quite easily IMO<snip>

Well an opinion is just that. An opinion. The planet might exists, yes - but recover? Quite easily? Seriously?
And frankly - it doesn't matter if the "world" will survive if we won't.

[Nightmare]

[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34392959/ns/us_news-environment/?GT1=43001"]Pretty interesting article from MSNBC[/url] about the emails. After being studied, there's no evidence to suggest that there was any fraud or falsifying of data, just a lot of posturing and a willingness to silence dissent.

Should at least silence SOME of the arguments coming out about "Climategate".

[jklinders]

[url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34392959/ns/us_news-environment/?GT1=43001"]Pretty interesting article from MSNBC[/url] about the emails. After being studied, there's no evidence to suggest that there was any fraud or falsifying of data, just a lot of posturing and a willingness to silence dissent.

Should at least silence SOME of the arguments coming out about "Climategate".

A willingness to silence dissent, sounds really scientific to me Not really a whole lot of new info here and no justification at all for conducting research behind closed doors and destroying data asked for in FOI requests(against the law that is).

[fable]

A willingness to silence dissent, sounds really scientific to me

It is very human, and that is enough to understand it.

[jklinders]

It is very human, and that is enough to understand it.

As long as it does not cross professional boundaries, in which case it is understandable human and unethical. Disagreement with the result of an otherwise sound study is not grounds for censure. When everyone is acting slimy it causes me to trust no one. THAT is how I feel about climate science right now. Deniers, proponents, I do not care, they are all full of crap until they open the doors allow peer review and take the bloody politics out of the equation.

[fable]

When everyone is acting slimy it causes me to trust no one. THAT is how I feel about climate science right now.

So because a few climate scientists were bullying the data, thousands of climate scientists can't be trusted?