Is Religion a good thing or a bad thing?

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:20 pm

Salidin54 wrote:As far as I'm concerned you have the right to your opinion, but I have one huge problem with your statement:

Jesus said he was the son of God, not a good man. Now you have 3 choices: either he was crazy and truly believed what he was saying, he was lying to everyone in an extremely brilliant scam to fool the ENTIRE ROMAN EMPIRE!!! (and consequently most of the following history), or he was telling the truth. You can decide what you believe, just make sure it all lines up.

He never said he was the son of god. When people asked him if he was, he said "You yourself are saying so". In the bible other people called him Son of God. He called himself the Son of Man. For examples of this, read Matthew chapters 12 and 13. If I remember correctly, I think the closest he came to saying he was tha son of god was in Matthew 11:25-27, but since god is the Father of us all, according to the bible, and we are all his sons and daughters (being descended fom Adam and Eve), it is not particularly significant. I could be misremembering, but if I am I am sure somone will be able to quote me book, chapter and verse where he says it!

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:27 pm

Xandax wrote:Not only that - but most major religions also state you should be happy with your "lot" in life, because you'll be rewarded in the after life, or the next life. So why question why a king is the ruler, why the nobles own all the land and so on because you'll be better off in the after-life.
That's one reason why I dislike religion personally - as a system - because it looks to be little more then an archaic control system.

I'm all for people believing what they want - but as a system, I find the concept too flawed.

With you all the way!

drazac · Post by **drazac** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:35 am

Fljotsdale wrote:Yeah, I know. It's amazing, though, that people don't realise that knowing the OT is essential for understanding the NT. The whole purpose of the coming of Christ is based solidly on the OT. Remember, too, the disciples and apostles of Jesus during his lifetime, and for many years after his death, only HAD what we call the Old Testament writings. It was the Old Testament that Jesus explained to them, that he wanted them to understand. To them, the OT was The Word of God. Their own writings were not so considered. Jesus taught them from the OT. Read it.

God established OT with Mosses, but Jesus perfected it in NT by giving the two new orders of Love...

Fljotsdale wrote:That is inaccurate. The bible actually says: "For god loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Says nothing about a cross.

I haven't wrote the exact writing that was in Bible... the point is that God gave His Son to pay the price for OUR sins ... and we know what happened to Jesus

Fljotsdale wrote:Was not the Flood mass murder? Was not the genocide he ordered of the inhabitants of the promised land mass murder

Yes i remember it from the movies... but, the image of a murdering God is not suited for the God of Love ... it just isn't ... so there must be some other explanation ... I believe, that it is we, men, who punish our self's by willingly separating us from God and throwing ourselves into the Satan's claws, when we defy God's will... and is obeying His Will that bad? Are the laws He gave us that bad? ... didn't he said, respect your folks, do not kill, do not steal, do not lust, etc ... aren't those good laws?

Fljotsdale wrote:As someone already pointed out there are a helluva lot more than 10 commandments! There are hundreds! The Ten Words, as the bible calls them, are a very brief summation of the most important.

Yes i know, for example, playing occult games with magic (D&D etc) are considered a sin... reading occult books like Harry Poter and watching the movies like the LOTR... listening metal music... kissing a girlfriend or boyfriend is considered a sin...

THOSE ARE NOT SINS... but the things is, certain people who are playing occult games MIGHT turn their desire of finding and practicing dark, white and other kinds of magic? That is a sin

I, for one, love playing RPG's ... and most of them have magic settings in it? My conscience is clear, cause i know I'm not doing anything wrong.. cause it's just not real. When I stop playing those games, I don't have desire to go outside and try to cast fireballs and summon evil spirits and demons =)

When listening metal music, like Black Metal where certain (NOT ALL) bands speak about some kind of depression, hate, murder, cursing God ... that is a sin... does that mean we should ban all metal music... NO, just pay attention on lyrics and if some type of music is disturbing you... then find something else to listen...

As for kiss... it is NOT A SIN... but there is a chance it will lead to committing premarital sex and that is a sin.

Commandments are given in Ten Commandments + two commandments of Love.. and that's it.. If some Christian believers find playing occult games is a sin.. then that is a sin for them... but if others do not consider it a sin, then its not sin for them... But that doesn't mean if a couple is having premartial sex and they think they are NOT doing anything wrong... they are mistaken.

Fljotsdale wrote:And no, we don't punish ourselves. The bible quite specifically says god does it. It's there plain to read in the bible. In many, many places it says specifically that god punished the people. The bible also says that god takes vengeance upon people. For example: "Vengeance is mine, and retribution" (Deuteronomy 32:35)

He invites us not to engage into a fight with Satan cause we will lose... instead, He is the one who will deal with him.. As for punishment and judgment for other plp ... Our actions in our life (where we as good as Jesus was, where we trying to become more like him, have we tried to truly love everyone and ourselfs) will speak for us.. I believe, since God is the only one who is truly righteous, will only say the word Guilty or Not guilty =)

Fljotsdale wrote:No it isn't. You have to work like blazes to obey. I bet you still do things that the bible has told you are wrong. Do you ALWAYS tell the truth? Do you sometimes steal little things - pens or pencils from work or school, for example? And what about fornication? Did you know that includes masturbation? Reading porn? What about loving your fellow man? Are you ALWAYS kind and considerate of others? What about obeying your parents (if you still live at home)? Do you ever fail to obey? Go into a fit of the sulks? Slam doors? Shout?
Being a christian isn't easy. It's damned hard work!

I did all those stuff you mentioned above... i was a sinner.. i still am... but I'm not doing those stuff anymore... and if i do commit a sin... its not the end of the world, God is forgiving. That's why we have confessions.

A man without the gift of Holy Spirit CAN NOT obey the laws... CAN NOT fight alone with only his strength against evil spirits.. He/she can try... but they will fail ... when you receive Holy Spirit, this fight is becoming more easier... however, it is still hard sometimes... but it is supposed to be hard cause if it would be easy... it wont make any sense

Jesus said: "I haven't said it would be easy, I said it would be worthwhile"

Fljotsdale wrote:Well, personally I don't. But since the bible is, according to Jesus, the WORD OF GOD (who cannot lie ), you are supposed to believe it and take it literally. Did you know Jesus believed in Adam and Eve? He spole of them as real people. And if he IS the son of god/god himself, he should KNOW, shouldn't he?
As for the genocide of the inhabitants of the Promised Land, that is historical fact. Dunno about the Flood. Nobody does.

God can create Life from nothing... if we think that we are superior then any animal or insect cause we can build machines, we can fly the sky, we can create good games =), aren't we exact those little creatures compared to God.. why do we think we understand the God? ... Bible is the Word of God and it should not be taken literary! That's why Jesus spoke in (i don't know the english word for it) "story's" so that every human can hear and understand ... Some quotes in Bible, one person will understand it in one way, the other will understand it in another way... And they are both right, if they understand it with their heart.

Fljotsdale wrote:That's why I like Jesus. Good man. But the Writers of the New Tetament, in Revelation, show him in quite a different light. More like the god of the Old Testament, in fact - nasty and vengeful. Which is a great pity. Jesus in the Gospels is the image you should follow, certainly. But read Revelation anyway. Especially the second half.

I don't know what exactly do you mean... but its my fault since i haven't read anything except NT.

In NT, Jesus was liberating people from their sins, He healed them: cripples are walking, blind are seeing again, dead are brought back to life... He did good all his lifetime as a half God half human

You are entitled to have your own opinion =) ... i do not agree with it, but it is ok =) ... Bible is a heavy material to read, some understand it, others don't ... I just want you to reconsider, that there might be a chance that you've got some parts of the Bible wrong. As will I =)

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:13 am

drazac wrote: God established OT with Mosses, but Jesus perfected it in NT by giving the two new orders of Love...

Are you saying that the perfect, infallible god gave Moses an imperfect Law that Jesus then had to put right?

I know that isn't what you mean, but it certainly looks like it!

Seriously - have you ever actually READ the Ten Commmandment? You can find the passage at Exodus 20, verses 1 to 11. But I am also posting a link to the repetition, by Moses, of those commandments, which can be found at Deuteronomy 5: 6-15. Here it is: Deuteronomy 5: 1-21; - PassageLookup - New American Standard Bible - BibleGateway.com

Please read it. You will find it very illuminating.

Though possibly a bit difficult.

drazac wrote:I haven't wrote the exact writing that was in Bible... the point is that God gave His Son to pay the price for OUR sins ... and we know what happened to Jesus

Always do your best to be exact. If you are not, people will have ammunition to attack you. I know from experience!

drazac wrote:Yes i remember it from the movies... but, the image of a murdering God is not suited for the God of Love ... it just isn't ... so there must be some other explanation ...

Oh dear. The movies are not exactly the most accurate presentation of the bible, you know...
And, oh dear... a faith that shuts it's eyes to unpleasant truths is standing on very shaky ground...

drazac wrote:I believe, that it is we, men, who punish our self's by willingly separating us from God and throwing ourselves into the Satan's claws, when we defy God's will...

No. When an army invades a country, the inhabitants of that country don't deliberately throw themselves into the path of the bullets or willingly go into concentration camps.

In the same way, nobody deliberately squashes themself under god's chariot wheel, he rolls over them even when they run anway. Millions of people in this world believe in gods who are not your god. They have just as much faith in their gods as you do. They are just different gods than yours. Or no gods at all. They would not dream of changing their faith (or lack of it) to serve your god, who they believe is false. Why should they? Yet, according to your belief, if all those millions don't become believers in your god, they are doomed to an eternity in hell. For what? Maybe that old Muslim guy is better than you. Maybe that buddhist woman is as close to perfection in her conduct and thoughts as any human can get. Maybe that Wiccan priest is better than any christian priest ever was... but thay have to get crushed under the chariot wheels of god because they don't believe in your god?

more below

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:13 am

drazac wrote:and is obeying His Will that bad? Are the laws He gave us that bad? ... didn't he said, respect your folks, do not kill, do not steal, do not lust, etc ... aren't those good laws?

Yes, of course they are. Except when he tells people to go out and commit genocide...

drazac wrote:Yes i know, for example, playing occult games with magic (D&D etc) are considered a sin... reading occult books like Harry Poter and watching the movies like the LOTR... listening metal music... kissing a girlfriend or boyfriend is considered a sin...

THOSE ARE NOT SINS... but the things is, certain people who are playing occult games MIGHT turn their desire of finding and practicing dark, white and other kinds of magic? That is a sin

Yes, and maybe people who have never done any of those things can go out and commit grave sins too.
But it is also a fact that what you feed your mind with affects your attitudes, and what affects your attitude can affect your behaviour. Young people, especially, can be very adversly affected by the occult, pornography, etc., because their minds are so easily influenced. As you get older you develop armour against it that children and teens don't have. BUT, mostly, harmful behaviour is absorbed by from their home life; but external forces like games and the occult can reinforce the attitudes absorbed from home.

drazac wrote:I, for one, love playing RPG's ... and most of them have magic settings in it? My conscience is clear, cause i know I'm not doing anything wrong.. cause it's just not real. When I stop playing those games, I don't have desire to go outside and try to cast fireballs and summon evil spirits and demons =)

Likewise.

But it can be damaging to some, all the same, and that has nothing at all to do with whether one has a religious belief or not.

drazac wrote:When listening metal music, like Black Metal where certain (NOT ALL) bands speak about some kind of depression, hate, murder, cursing God ... that is a sin... does that mean we should ban all metal music... NO, just pay attention on lyrics and if some type of music is disturbing you... then find something else to listen...

Personally I loathe heavy metal. It's violent. End of story.

drazac wrote:As for kiss... it is NOT A SIN... but there is a chance it will lead to committing premarital sex and that is a sin.

Did you know the bible(New AND Old Testaments) advises a young man to not even touch a woman until he is married?

drazac wrote:Commandments are given in Ten Commandments + two commandments of Love.. and that's it.. If some Christian believers find playing occult games is a sin.. then that is a sin for them... but if others do not consider it a sin, then its not sin for them... But that doesn't mean if a couple is having premartial sex and they think they are NOT doing anything wrong... they are mistaken.

The occult is considered sinful - deserving of death, even - whether the people concerned consider it a sin or not. Deuteronomy 18:10-12; Galatians 5:19-21.

drazac wrote: He invites us not to engage into a fight with Satan cause we will lose... instead, He is the one who will deal with him..

No. WE have to fight, according to Ephesians 6:12, which tells us, among other things, to put on the complete suit of armour from god. Here, read it: Ephesians 6:12-18 - PassageLookup - New American Standard Bible - BibleGateway.com

drazac wrote:As for punishment and judgment for other plp ... Our actions in our life (where we as good as Jesus was, where we trying to become more like him, have we tried to truly love everyone and ourselfs) will speak for us.. I believe, since God is the only one who is truly righteous, will only say the word Guilty or Not guilty =)

Refer back to some of what I said earlier in this post

drazac wrote:I did all those stuff you mentioned above... i was a sinner.. i still am... but I'm not doing those stuff anymore... and if i do commit a sin... its not the end of the world, God is forgiving. That's why we have confessions.

A person who carries on sinning and expecting god to forgive him/her over and over again for the same thing, is fooling him/herself if expecting to be forgiven every time. You don't fool god. That's why I said being a christian is very hard work. You have to obey, not fail, say sorry, go and do it again, say sorry, go and do it again, etc, ad infinitum.

drazac wrote:A man without the gift of Holy Spirit CAN NOT obey the laws... CAN NOT fight alone with only his strength against evil spirits.. He/she can try... but they will fail ... when you receive Holy Spirit, this fight is becoming more easier... however, it is still hard sometimes... but it is supposed to be hard cause if it would be easy... it wont make any sense

Rubbish. There are millions of people in this world without your beliefs and your holy spirit, who are doing a very good job of living clean lives. Of course, there are as many millions who aren't. Even with holy spirit.

drazac wrote:Jesus said: "I haven't said it would be easy, I said it would be worthwhile"

Did he? News to me. Book, chapter and verse, if you please.

drazac wrote:God can create Life from nothing... if we think that we are superior then any animal or insect cause we can build machines, we can fly the sky, we can create good games =), aren't we exact those little creatures compared to God.. why do we think we understand the God? ...

I often think we are much stupider than what we call 'dumb animals'. At least the dumb animals are not ruining the earth.

drazac wrote:Bible is the Word of God and it should not be taken literary!

That isn't what Jesus believed.

drazac wrote: That's why Jesus spoke in (i don't know the english word for it) "story's" so that every human can hear and understand ...

Parables, is the word. And he said himself that he spoke in parables to the crowds so they would NOT understand. He explained them to his disciples after the crowds had gone. Here; Luke 8:10 - PassageLookup - New American Standard Bible - BibleGateway.com

drazac wrote:Some quotes in Bible, one person will understand it in one way, the other will understand it in another way... And they are both right, if they understand it with their heart.

And if they think opposite things? How can both be right?

drazac wrote:I don't know what exactly do you mean... but its my fault since i haven't read anything except NT.

You should.

drazac wrote:In NT, Jesus was liberating people from their sins, He healed them: cripples are walking, blind are seeing again, dead are brought back to life... He did good all his lifetime as a half God half human

Jesus called himself Son of Man. Not half god/half man like a centaur or something.

drazac wrote:You are entitled to have your own opinion =) ... i do not agree with it, but it is ok =) ... Bible is a heavy material to read, some understand it, others don't ... I just want you to reconsider, that there might be a chance that you've got some parts of the Bible wrong. As will I =)

Lol! No, I don't hold your beliefs against you, eiother, but I really believe you need to get a much deeper knowlege of the bible than a bit of reading in the New Testament. If god wrote the whole bible doesn't he desrve that you at least read it ALL?

drazac · Post by **drazac** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:04 pm

I will only say this

I have two good friends who both have a gift of speaking in tongues... Both sing in a church band and several other plp in the band have the same gift.

They say, the feeling when they speak in tongues is magnificent and can't be described with words... they say that all the scars and pain they were holding in their harts was healed by Jesus... by his blood that was spilled on the cross.

They speak of a spiritual freedom, completely free from the world desires... they are happier, they smile more, they do not worry, they've become better students etc etc... they have changed for the better completely

A mass murderer wont do those things, but a God of Love would

Regarding what Jesus spoke: "I haven't said it would be easy, I said it would be worthwhile". This was not written in Bible: a minister who has a gift of preaching said this... actually, the Holy Spirit within him said it

You may have read the Bible several times, but you do not understand it... I too, do not understand that little I have read so far... But I am willing to find out more... and by more I mean, more about His Love.

It would be best, if maybe you have a desire, to speak with someone who has more knowledge about this, then me... someone who can say:" Holy Spirit changed me, I am a new person"... if you do encounter this person in your life... just listen to him/her what he/she has to say.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:29 pm

A mass murderer wont do those things, but a God of Love would

We used to have a Muslim member here, who's been inactive pretty much since returning home, and he could tell you the same thing about the love of Allah. And I know several followers of Vishnu and Shiva who could and would say as much. I have spoken to some modern day worshippers of Isis who tear up and cry at what they received in her worship, too. So it would seem that the experiences you describe are not limited to a Christian god, but universal among a subset of believers to many different religions.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:28 pm

drazac wrote: I will only say this

I have two good friends who both have a gift of speaking in tongues... Both sing in a church band and several other plp in the band have the same gift.

They say, the feeling when they speak in tongues is magnificent and can't be described with words... they say that all the scars and pain they were holding in their harts was healed by Jesus... by his blood that was spilled on the cross.

They speak of a spiritual freedom, completely free from the world desires... they are happier, they smile more, they do not worry, they've become better students etc etc... they have changed for the better completely

I'm happy they are happy. My belief did the same for me, believe it or not.

But I have been even happier since I lost my belief and found the courage to say so to the people who loved me, and whom I loved, in my religion. I am free from strugging to love a god I had come to heartily dislike. I am happy.

drazac wrote:A mass murderer wont do those things, but a God of Love would

I won't say the obvious...

drazac wrote:Regarding what Jesus spoke: "I haven't said it would be easy, I said it would be worthwhile". This was not written in Bible: a minister who has a gift of preaching said this... actually, the Holy Spirit within him said it

So it wasn't Jesus at all. I didn't think so.

drazac wrote:You may have read the Bible several times, but you do not understand it... I too, do not understand that little I have read so far... But I am willing to find out more... and by more I mean, more about His Love.

I haven't just 'read it several times' my dear! I had 25 years of intense study of the bible. I haven't studied it any more over the past 20 years, but I remember lots, and I still have study materials I can call on to refresh my memory. Mostly the bible. I have several versions, including a Greek/English Interlinear version of the New Testament, which is quite handy for tricky points.

drazac wrote:It would be best, if maybe you have a desire, to speak with someone who has more knowledge about this, then me... someone who can say:" Holy Spirit changed me, I am a new person"... if you do encounter this person in your life... just listen to him/her what he/she has to say.

Sigh. I did that 45 years ago, love.

I wish you joy in your faith. Truly. I'm just glad it's not mine any more.

Oh! And do your god justice by reading the whole bible, not just the nice bits.

drazac · Post by **drazac** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:28 pm

fable wrote:We used to have a Muslim member here, who's been inactive pretty much since returning home, and he could tell you the same thing about the love of Allah. And I know several followers of Vishnu and Shiva who could and would say as much. I have spoken to some modern day worshippers of Isis who tear up and cry at what they received in her worship, too. So it would seem that the experiences you describe are not limited to a Christian god, but universal among a subset of believers to many different religions.

That why i've said:

drazac wrote:If a Religion is based on unconditional love... then it is GOOD

By "Religion" i wasn't referring to Christianity only, but on any Religion

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:32 pm

drazac wrote:That why i've said:

By "Religion" i wasn't referring to Christianity only, but on any Religion

I wondered--because you also wrote:

Regarding what Jesus spoke: "I haven't said it would be easy, I said it would be worthwhile". This was not written in Bible: a minister who has a gift of preaching said this... actually, the Holy Spirit within him said it

...and as Christianity is a monotheistic religion, and as the minister was (presumably) a Christian one, from a religion that believes all other gods are either mistaken or demonic in origin--this would seem to argue against such a breadth of theological view. Mind, there are quite a few individuals out there that don't hold to this, but all the Christian sects I'm aware of, from the various spinoffs of Orthodox Christianity (including the RCC) to Protestantism most certainly to Pentacostalism, do officially consider everybody who isn't Christian as errant, unsaved, and not exactly bound for heaven.

drazac · Post by **drazac** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:26 pm

Yes, I can see the problem, however, this is not true. Salvation is given to everyone, not just Christians!

Here is an example from the real life. Mother Teresa was a Christian nun and she devoted her life helping others. She lived in India, where different religions exist, like Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism etc. When she was burring someone who has died, she didn't buried a person in accustoms with her own religion... instead, she was doing burial rituals accustomed with that person beliefs, whether he/she was a Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist etc.

Here is another one, Muslim woman came to Christian spiritual rehabilitation, just to see what is this all about. The moment everyone has started singing, she received the gift of speaking in "tongues". How come a person, with other religion beliefs, who doesn't know Christian God, receives a gift from him?

In the case of Mother Teresa, God gave us the free will and He loves us so much that He lets us decide our own path and destiny... if it is a path of Love, whether a person is Buddist, or Muslim, it doesnt matter,... you are following the path of Lord Jesus Christ

If its a path of self glorification and desire for more worlds riches and of course, the desire of our own flesh (lust)... then its is not the path of Love ... it is the path of our doom whether you are Christian, or Muslim or Buddish etc

In the case of Muslim woman, the TRUE LOVE OF GOD towards any being is showed and it doesnt matter what beliefs the one has

So, then why there is a 1. commandment: Do not have any other gods? Why there are commandments at all?

I believe, when a person is baptized, certain responsibilities are given to that person when he/she receives a gift of Holy Spirit ... those responsibilities are obeying the ten commandments and the two commandments of love.

We are all created by God in Heaven before the time... this is where our true home is. We are created from unconditional love. Our job is to live in the Love, to feed it constantly, never let it go ... Someone said: you can sell all your belongings and give it to the poor, but without love, it worth's nothing; I can be loved by everyone, but if i do not give love, I am nothing!

I can say I am proud to be a Christian, but that doesn't make me any better from the ones who are not =)

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:32 pm

drazac wrote:Yes, I can see the problem, however, this is not true. Salvation is given to everyone, not just Christians!

Then yours is not a standard Christian group, nor does it follow the usual interpretation of the bible, where this would be considered unacceptable. What religious sect (and I use the term in the traditional, not pejorative sense) do you belong to?

those responsibilities are obeying the ten commandments and the two commandments of love.

Yet people following other gods automatically contravene the so-called ten commandments. Correct?

Here is another one, Muslim woman came to Christian spiritual rehabilitation, just to see what is this all about. The moment everyone has started singing, she received the gift of speaking in "tongues". How come a person, with other religion beliefs, who doesn't know Christian God, receives a gift from him?

Presumably for the same reason that a Christian, going to a Hindu sect, would manifest various gifts coming from a polytheistic religion, and from various gods. Yet Hinduism is polytheistic, not monotheistic. And if you say the Hindu multitude of gods aren't true, I'd have to ask you how you could tell this to be the case. If you agree that this is literally as true as monotheism, I wouldn't necessarily disagree--but I'd curious if you could provide a short response of how in your lights that might be.

Kristobal · Post by **Kristobal** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:01 am

Can't we all just agree to disagree? Im all for exchanging ideas and sharing beliefs with others, but this has gone on quite a bit and it seems to me that people are just starting to bash on one another.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:57 am

Kristobal wrote:Can't we all agree to disagree? Im all for exchanging ideas and sharing beliefs with others, but this has gone on quite a bit and it seems to me that people are just starting to bash on one another.

I agree on agreeing to disagree. But bashing? I hardly think so. all I see are people countering the other's points of argument --- which is healthy to me.

Bashing would include ad hominems and other mean and nasty stuff hurled at another for purposes of hurting and humiliating.

drazac · Post by **drazac** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:08 am

fable wrote:Then yours is not a standard Christian group, nor does it follow the usual interpretation of the bible, where this would be considered unacceptable. What religious sect (and I use the term in the traditional, not pejorative sense) do you belong to?

I am a Christian... i do not belong to any sect... as a Christian, I have responsibility to follow the path of Jesus Christ and to follow the will of the Father <- (And by that, I mean following the 10. comm. and two comm of love). That means, it would be a sin for me to pray to other gods, cause there is only ONE God! This is a Christian stand! However, we should not bash any other religion and force people to accept ours, but we need to speak to those people who have never heard of Jesus. We need to speak about his love, what He did for us (he didn't died for Jews or Christians only, he died for every being, whether is a Muslim or Buddhist etc) ... a person has a free will and can choose whether it will accept this gift of salvation through Jesus or not... if it decides yes, then that person is completely changed! Holy Spirit changes that person and heals it wounds... whether their are spiritual (broken heart) or physical. Plus, it gives other gifts (gift or preaching, speaking in tounges, healing people in Jesus name etc). This is when wonders are happening. If you are interested, try to look for a real documentary about a men in Africa who had a car crash. He died. His wife didn't accepted his death and since she was a Christan, she brought him into a Church and she asked the plp there to pray and celebrate the Lord so her husband can turn back to life. Some of them thought that she was insane, other said they will gladly help her by praying to the Lord. A man was already balsamed, but after three days of praying and singing and begging the Lord, a man opened his eyes and he asked a glass of water! This was recorded!

fable wrote:Yet people following other gods automatically contravene the so-called ten commandments. Correct?

If I encounter a Hindu and they have many gods. If I say to him, you are going to hell if you do not repent... that will make me a hypocrite cause I am saying my religion is the best and the only true religion, and your sucks! However, if that person wishes, I can speak to him/her about Jesus.

When a person is touched and healed by the Holy Spirit, it will never ever seek out any other god. The laws the God gave, will automatically be his/her laws... That person is completely changed...

fable wrote:Presumably for the same reason that a Christian, going to a Hindu sect, would manifest various gifts coming from a polytheistic religion, and from various gods. Yet Hinduism is polytheistic, not monotheistic. And if you say the Hindu multitude of gods aren't true, I'd have to ask you how you could tell this to be the case. If you agree that this is literally as true as monotheism, I wouldn't necessarily disagree--but I'd curious if you could provide a short response of how in your lights that might be.

I do not know the teachings of other religions, but if they are based on true unconditional love.. then they must be good cause it is the same path that Jesus walked. This is what i believe

However, i do not know the "Yes/No" answer to your question... if i say that every other religion who is not Christian is worshiping demonic gods and Satan himself, it will make me the biggest hypocrite Nazi in entire galaxy.

If i say that worshiping any other gods is OK, that would make me defy the first commandment.

So if one should obey the rules and others don't cause they have other beliefs, then it seems the rules and regulations are not that important... and the only thing remaining that is important, which joins together every individual on the entire planet is, LOVE!

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:31 am

Kristobal wrote:Can't we all just agree to disagree? Im all for exchanging ideas and sharing beliefs with others, but this has gone on quite a bit and it seems to me that people are just starting to bash on one another.

Well, so far I am unaware of any 'bashing'. The exchanges have all been courteous and respectful, imo. And also thought provoking without being unpleasantly provocative.
Could you point out anything that you feel is 'bashing'? It would be really helpful to know what exchanges you have found unacceptable, and why.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:34 am

Maharlika wrote:I agree on agreeing to disagree. But bashing? I hardly think so. all I see are people countering the other's points of argument --- which is healthy to me.

Bashing would include ad hominems and other mean and nasty stuff hurled at another for purposes of hurting and humiliating.

Well said. You're a very sensible, reasonable person.

Fljotsdale · Post by **Fljotsdale** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:06 am

drazac wrote:

... Someone said: you can sell all your belongings and give it to the poor, but without love, it worth's nothing; I can be loved by everyone, but if i do not give love, I am nothing!

That was Paul, the Apostle, at 1st Corinthians 13:1-8:

"If I speak in the tongues men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding brass or a clashing cymbal. And if I have the gift of prophecying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.
Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for it's own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It does not rejoice over over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails."
Read on in your New Testament to the end of the chapter - only 5 and a bit more verses.

And anyone that can live up to that is a truly good person. Regardless of their religion or lack of it. And you'd have to be darn near perfect to do it, too! :laugh: But we should all try, whatever our faith or lack of it.

I don't much care for the Apostle Paul, but the above was the best thing he ever wrote, imo. And he didn't live up to it either.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:13 am

drazac wrote:I am a Christian... i do not belong to any sect...

So what you're telling me is that you arrived at your interpretation of the bible on your own, and that you're not a member of a Christian group with a single, unified, theological viewpoint? Do I have this right?

...as a Christian, I have responsibility to follow the path of Jesus Christ and to follow the will of the Father <- (And by that, I mean following the 10. comm. and two comm of love). That means, it would be a sin for me to pray to other gods, cause there is only ONE God!

So all religions are not one, and you do not accept the gods of other religions. Thanks for explaining that.

If you are interested, try to look for a real documentary about a men in Africa who had a car crash. He died. His wife didn't accepted his death and since she was a Christan, she brought him into a Church and she asked the plp there to pray and celebrate the Lord so her husband can turn back to life. Some of them thought that she was insane, other said they will gladly help her by praying to the Lord. A man was already balsamed, but after three days of praying and singing and begging the Lord, a man opened his eyes and he asked a glass of water! This was recorded!

And there are numerous recorded, witnessed events showing people who put their faith in non-Christian gods also reviving miraculously after death. And for that matter, there are several atheists and agnostics who were dead to all intents and purposes, who revive after a period of time. Are you suggesting that the ones that happen to Christians are miracles, but the ones that happen to others are false? Where's your evidence for this?

If I encounter a Hindu and they have many gods. If I say to him, you are going to hell if you do not repent... that will make me a hypocrite cause I am saying my religion is the best and the only true religion, and your sucks! However, if that person wishes, I can speak to him/her about Jesus.

So in other words, you believe he's going to hell, but won't say it because of the way it makes you look--correct?

I do not know the teachings of other religions, but if they are based on true unconditional love.. then they must be good cause it is the same path that Jesus walked. This is what i believe

Yet you have a contradiction. There's Ghandi, for example: a man who believed firmly in unconditional love, and was a polytheistic Hindu. It would appear that love in the sense you mean it is not limited to those who worship a single god, and that gods can take on an enormous number of shapes and intents. Even gods of love and harmony may not in the slightest resemble Jesus, and I certainly don't just mean physical resemblance, either.

However, i do not know the "Yes/No" answer to your question... if i say that every other religion who is not Christian is worshiping demonic gods and Satan himself, it will make me the biggest hypocrite Nazi in entire galaxy.

If i say that worshiping any other gods is OK, that would make me defy the first commandment.

So if one should obey the rules and others don't cause they have other beliefs, then it seems the rules and regulations are not that important... and the only thing remaining that is important, which joins together every individual on the entire planet is, LOVE!

Somehow, though, I get the distinct feeling you'll be witnessing people again to convert them to your rules and regs very shortly. Not because you're hypocritical, or a Nazi (and I really do wish all of us could get through a decent conversation these days without the jargon of far right ideologues being thrown in to stain everything), but because you're human, and we humans tend to do that. And your zeal to make others feel what you feel will lead you to attempt to convert them. Love, on the other hand, seems to involve letting others grow into themselves without the emotional shoving that seems to be a facet of religious conversion.

drazac · Post by **drazac** » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:48 am

fable wrote:So what you're telling me is that you arrived at your interpretation of the bible on your own, and that you're not a member of a Christian group with a single, unified, theological viewpoint? Do I have this right?

Yes, I have my own interpretation of Bible... as every other person who reads Bible, will interpret things differently ... we are not clones, we do have our own opinions and different consciousness, so someone might find something offensive, while others are perfectly cool with it (for example; one doesn't like seeing and using magic in games, it disturbs him/her, while others are fine with it)... The problem begins when we think we are not breaking 10 comm., like having sex before marriage, lusting in heart and mind, stealing... etc (It is like when God said to Adam and Eve, you have every fruit tree at your disposal except just ONE; thousands and millions of trees with fruits are given to us, but just one is of the limits, same thing replies to sin)

fable wrote:And there are numerous recorded, witnessed events showing people who put their faith in non-Christian gods also reviving miraculously after death. And for that matter, there are several atheists and agnostics who were dead to all intents and purposes, who revive after a period of time. Are you suggesting that the ones that happen to Christians are miracles, but the ones that happen to others are false? Where's your evidence for this?

I have never seen nor hear miracles that have happened, or are happening in other religions... but then again, someone with other religion can say the same thing for mine

fable wrote:So in other words, you believe he's going to hell, but won't say it because of the way it makes you look--correct?

No, I am saying since he is not a Christian, he/she can't follow the commandments that are given to Christians ... but he/she is still bound to live the life of love (clean conscience and soul, good, kind, caring, giving, forgiving, ready to help everyone, doesn't judge, every life is precious to him/her etc etc etc etc) ... When i was in spiritual rehab, Franciscan minister spoke about Heaven. He said Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians everyone one of them are invited to Heaven. If a Muslim has their own beliefs and traditions and prayers, God respects them... but we all our bound to live the life of Love .. this is who we all are... we are created in Love by Love ... our heart wants it and it needs it and it wont settle down till it finds it in the God of Love. Since I am a Christian i am asked to try to obey God's will... I can't ask a Muslim to obey my rules, just as Muslim can't ask me to obey his

This is what I believe, but other Christians might interpret things differently .. we all may be right, but God respects our beliefs and He won't judge them, not ever

fable wrote:Yet you have a contradiction. There's Ghandi, for example: a man who believed firmly in unconditional love, and was a polytheistic Hindu. It would appear that love in the sense you mean it is not limited to those who worship a single god, and that gods can take on an enormous number of shapes and intents. Even gods of love and harmony may not in the slightest resemble Jesus, and I certainly don't just mean physical resemblance, either.

Everyone who follows the path of unconditional love is following the path of Jesus, no matter what religion they are... I've said it several times (reading between lines)

fable wrote:Somehow, though, I get the distinct feeling you'll be witnessing people again to convert them to your rules and regs very shortly. Not because you're hypocritical, or a Nazi (and I really do wish all of us could get through a decent conversation these days without the jargon of far right ideologues being thrown in to stain everything), but because you're human, and we humans tend to do that. And your zeal to make others feel what you feel will lead you to attempt to convert them. Love, on the other hand, seems to involve letting others grow into themselves without the emotional shoving that seems to be a facet of religious conversion.

Emm.. I never got the impression that I am trying to convert people .. If i was.. I am sorry ... If a person is on a path of true love, but different religion, there is no need to force him/her to any other religion .. that is my opinion... however others might say, If you are walking the path of true love, then come meet Jesus, cause there is no greater and purer Love then His!