Catholicism is cool... it just has a bad demon infestation

[endboss]

Chief exorcist Father Gabriele Amorth says Devil is in the Vatican -Times Online

This guy has dealt 70,000 blows to the hordes of the underworld for 25 years. That's about 3 exorcisms a week for the past two and a half decades. The priests from The Exorcist couldn't even make it through one, although Father Amorth does say that, while accurate, the movie was a bit "exaggerated".

Yes friends, it turns out that child abuse, cover ups, massacres, et all in the Catholic church is not due to the failings of the religious practices, the fallibility of the Pope and other leaders, the problems with the dogma, or plain old human nature, but the devil and his henchmen. So this isn't considered a flame, I would like to posit the question to any Christians or people knowledgeable about Christians as to why this is okay. I know several people who believe the devil is real and actually does stuff to people, but we have come to an agreement never to talk about religion so I would never ask this question of them.

Anyways, who else is incredibly curious as to what goes on during meetings of the Association of Exorcists club?

[DesR85]

...I would like to posit the question to any Christians or people knowledgeable about Christians as to why this is okay. I know several people who believe the devil is real and actually does stuff to people, but we have come to an agreement never to talk about religion so I would never ask this question of them.

I am a Catholic myself and do believe that the devil is real and he can do really bad things to people. From what I remember of attending certain seminars (I'm not religious, but I went anyway to know more), the devil works in mysterious ways to do evil things, including possession. How he does it, that is beyond the rationale of the human mind.

In this case, I probably assume that he is at work through those sick clergymen to commit those acts and especially the power struggles that are happening in the Vatican (may or may not necessarily be possession). Just like how Soviet meddle-making around the world helped destabilised countries through supporting favourable regimes or insurgent groups during the Cold War, so is it in the case of the devil when it comes to working through individuals as pawns to commit heinous acts according to his plan.

So if you ask me, it is a culmination of the sick mind and other factors plus the invisible hand of the devil (through temptations and what not) that will eventually drive the individual to commit a heinous act according to his plan. This does not mean I am shifting the blame from the individual(s) to some invisible being or outside forces, but it is a combination of both and other factors that made him do things like that.

I do not speak on behalf of all Catholics, but I can safely assume that is their reasoning when something heinous happen to other people.

Anyways, who else is incredibly curious as to what goes on during meetings of the Association of Exorcists club?

I'm not too sure myself, but I do know of a few priests in my local diocese who are exorcists themselves and they do meet to share their experiences with other exorcism priests on the types of possessed people they encountered.

[Maharlika]

Possession is real for I have encountered it first hand. I know, I know, some of you are skeptic (if not cynical) about it and I can't blame you.

The experience was hair raising and witnessing it defies explanation the way I know how.

At any rate, not even members of the clergy are immune to the machinations of the Devil himself. He has provided the opportunities of temptations for all these people. It's just a matter whether the one being tempted will succumb to these alluring baits or not. No, it's not the Devil's fault. Blame it on the individuals who chose to take that path.

To answer your question, yeah, I'm curious as well.

[Xandax]

Possession is real for I have encountered it first hand. I know, I know, some of you are skeptic (if not cynical) about it and I can't blame you.
<snip>

Well - you know, for something to be "real", it must be verifiable. Trusting a "I have encountered it first hand" means we'll have to believe aliens probing humans as real, because people claim to have encountered it first hand. Or that Elvis is still alive and so on....

What is properly more adequate to claim is that you believe it to be real, and that it works for you.

It is not about being "skeptic" or "cynical". It is about verifiable and faith.

[Ashen]

It is not about being "skeptic" or "cynical". It is about verifiable and faith.

Precisely. And we always get stuck on the verifiable part.

It's also often bad logic or in other words, I can prove Elvis is a god if anyone is interested.

Don't believe in demons, devil etc and I firmly believe it's a convenient way out.

There is someone else to blame, not the human. There's someone else working behind the scene. It annoys the heck out of me as it removes the culpability of the individual and the fact that we are responsible for our actions. If the person is mentally ill then it is a condition that needs to be treated, but it is not possession, devil or anything else and it is up to us to have proper precautions in place, to offer help to those who are sick, to be alert, to use laws that are in place to deal with these individuals no matter who they are or what 'club' they are a part of.

[Maharlika]

Well - you know, for something to be "real", it must be verifiable. Trusting a "I have encountered it first hand" means we'll have to believe aliens probing humans as real, because people claim to have encountered it first hand. Or that Elvis is still alive and so on....

What is properly more adequate to claim is that you believe it to be real, and that it works for you.

It is not about being "skeptic" or "cynical". It is about verifiable and faith.

But the thing is, the veracity of such claims is not that easy since such occurrences don't come a dime a dozen. You don't know when it's going to happen and when it does you're not even ready to document it.

When you see your 6 year old younger brother in a form of trance and starts talking fluently in another voice (and responses at that!) in a language you know he really doesn't know, then there must be something going on here. The only language he was fluent in at that time was English. His Tagalog wasn't even that good. I wouldn't believe it myself, but I was there to listen and see him do it.

That language is "Akeanon" a dialect in Western Visayas --- my father's home province. Not too many Filipinos speak that language. My brothers and I don't go often to Aklan back in the day. We were already in Manila after a vacation there when my brother acted strange. That vacation didn't even last more than a month.

Sorry, back then (in the early 80's) video cams here were not that popularly used during those days.

Can't verify for documentation purposes. Didn't happen again.

But I'm pretty sure that all those who were there inside the room both children and adults can attest that such a thing did happen. Since you guys weren't there, I don't think you'll take my word for it.

I don't think that my then 6 year old brother has the capacity to concoct such a thing and make a fool out of us.

[DesR85]

Don't believe in demons, devil etc and I firmly believe it's a convenient way out.

There is someone else to blame, not the human. There's someone else working behind the scene. It annoys the heck out of me as it removes the culpability of the individual and the fact that we are responsible for our actions.

I can understand not believing in him, but to assume that every Christian use it as a way out of blame on somebody's crime is just ignorant. Read the article properly. Nowhere did this exorcist say that the individuals responsible for those crimes are blameless and the devil is at fault here. All he said is that he is at work and ask people to be vigilant. He also advises that every church should have an exorcist to deal with possessed people.

Does that sound like passing the blame? I don't think so. In a spiritual sense, he is correct to say that. As what Mah pointed out previously, he will offer temptations to an individual and if the individual allows himself/herself to get influenced by it and commit the crimes, then it is his/her fault.

[Lady Dragonfly]

This guy has dealt 70,000 blows to the hordes of the underworld for 25 years. That's about 3 exorcisms a week for the past two and a half decades.

Utilizing simple yet amazing math calculations, one can discover that Fr. Amorth actually performs 6.67 exorcisms a day. That is if he works 7 days a week and he has never taken a day off.

Moreover, 10 years ago (click here) Fr. Amorth claimed he performed "only" 50,000 exorcisms, which means 50,000/15/365=9.1 a day.
Since then he slowed down a bit, to just 20,000/10/365=5.47 a day. Can't blame him: it must be extremely depressing to deal with so many possessed Italians. The Italians men are overbearing even on the rare occasion they are not possessed.

Even if we take into consideration that other sources give us a different number (30,000 instead of 70,000), it is still a heck of a lot.

As for the ritual itself:

"We can sort out the phoney ones. We look into their eyes. As part of the exorcism, at specific times during the prayers, holding two fingers on the patient's eyes we raise the eyelids. Almost always, in cases of evil presence, the eyes look completely white. Even with the help of both hands, we can barely discern whether the pupils are towards the top or the bottom of the eye. If the pupils are looking up, the demons in possession are scorpions. If looking down, they are serpents."

"Ideally, the exorcist needs another priest to help him and a group nearby who will assist through prayer. The ritual does not specify the stance of the exorcist. Some stand, some sit. The ritual says only that, beginning with the words Ecce crucem Domini ('Behold the Cross of the Lord') the priest should touch the neck of the possessed one with the hem of his stole and hold his hand on his head. The demons will want to hide. Our task is to expose them, and then expel them. There are many ways to goad them into showing themselves. Although the ritual does not mention this, experience has taught us that using oil and holy water and salt can be very effective.

"Demons are wary of talking and must be forced to speak. When demons are voluntarily chatty it's a trick to distract the exorcist. We must never ask useless questions out of curiosity. We but must interrogate with care. We always begin by asking for the demon's name."

"And does he answer?" I ask. Father Amorth nods. "Yes, through the patient, but in a strange, unnatural voice. If it is the Devil himself, he says 'I am Satan, or Lucifer, or Beelzebub. We ask if he is alone or if there are others with him. Usually there are two or five, 20 or 30. We must quantify the number. We ask when and how they entered that particular body. We find out whether their presence is due to a spell and the specifics of that spell.

"During the exorcism the evil may emerge in slow stages or with sudden explosions. He does not want show himself. He will be angry and he is strong. During one exorcism I saw a child of 11 held down by four strong men. The child threw the men aside with ease. I was there when a boy of 10 lifted a huge, heavy table.

"Afterwards I felt the muscles in the boy's arms. He could not have done it on his own. He had the strength of the Devil inside him.

"No two cases are the same. Some patients have to be tied down on a bed. They spit. They vomit. At first the demon will try to demoralise the exorcist, then he will try to terrify him, saying, 'Tonight I'm going to put a serpent between your sheets. Tomorrow I'm going to eat your heart'."

I lean towards Father Amorth. "And are you sometimes frightened?" I ask. He looks incredulous. "Never. I have faith. I laugh at the demon and say to him, 'I've got the Madonna on my side. I am called Gabriel. Go fight the Archangel Gabriel if you will.' That usually shuts them up."

Now he leans towards me and taps my hand confidentially. "The secret is to find your demon's weak spot. Some demons cannot bear to have the Sign of the Cross traced with a stole on an aching part of the body; some cannot stand a puff of breath on the face; others resist with all their strength against blessing with holy water."

Fascinating.

[Xandax]

But the thing is, the veracity of such claims is not that easy since such occurrences don't come a dime a dozen. You don't know when it's going to happen and when it does you're not even ready to document it.

When you see your 6 year old younger brother in a form of trance and starts talking fluently in another voice (and responses at that!) in a language you know he really doesn't know, then there must be something going on here. The only language he was fluent in at that time was English. His Tagalog wasn't even that good. I wouldn't believe it myself, but I was there to listen and see him do it.

That language is "Akeanon" a dialect in Western Visayas --- my father's home province. Not too many Filipinos speak that language. My brothers and I don't go often to Aklan back in the day. We were already in Manila after a vacation there when my brother acted strange. That vacation didn't even last more than a month.

Sorry, back then (in the early 80's) video cams here were not that popularly used during those days.

Can't verify for documentation purposes. Didn't happen again.

But I'm pretty sure that all those who were there inside the room both children and adults can attest that such a thing did happen. Since you guys weren't there, I don't think you'll take my word for it.

I don't think that my then 6 year old brother has the capacity to concoct such a thing and make a fool out of us.

Funny thing though -apparently it happens often enough, generally speaking, that such occurances could/should have been well documented by now. Especially when looking at the "numbers" made in the OP.
Then you would have thought that somebody would come up and pose the question on whether or not we should start documenting it.

But I guess - once more - that because it is a "faith" issue, nothing else is required, which is also why I don't trust "faith" as an argument for anybody else but the people who believe in the religion themselves. It is a subjective argument, it is often anecdotal.
It is faith, but to me - that is also all it is.

And you're right - I can't take your word for it any more then I can those who claim any other thing from other religious manifestation or situation where people claim something "fantastic" with "encountered it first hand".

I make no claim on what you experienced and what you believe it was - but claiming something is real puts a different spin on the matter. And then we're back to my point; You believe (have faith) that it is real. Different things entirely. That does not mean it is real for others. For something to be "real" more is needed.

[Maharlika]

As far as this side of the globe is concerned, documentation of such occurrences isn't that much. Otherwise, these would almost always end up in the evening news. If possession is indeed rampant as some Western nations would report, I guess the clergy there are more active and accessible than their counterparts here in the Phils.

I understand what you mean when you mention faith. But this is not about faith.

My definition of reality is something that can be observed by my primary senses. In this case both audio and visual senses.

My point is, I could have been an atheist, a Buddhist, a Wiccan, a Hindu, or even a believer of the Egyptian pantheon. But it would not still change the fact of what I and the others have observed. It was an experience that even a non-believer who would witness it would likely have his hair rise from his spine.

Is there a scientific explanation for this phenomenon? I'm very much welcome if scientists can enlighten me of what transpired.

I didn't claim that it was the devil himself who entered my brother's body. But I'm pretty sure that it's a possession by some spirit. If it's not possession, then I don't know what it is.

[Xandax]

<snip>
I understand what you mean when you mention faith. But this is not about faith.

My definition of reality is something that can be observed by my primary senses. In this case both audio and visual senses.

My point is, I could have been an atheist, a Buddhist, a Wiccan, a Hindu, or even a believer of the Egyptian pantheon. But it would not still change the fact of what I and the others have observed. It was an experience that even a non-believer who would witness it would likely have his hair rise from his spine.

Is there a scientific explanation for this phenomenon? I'm very much welcome if scientists can enlighten me of what transpired.
<snip>

And as said - by that criteria - Elvis would be alive and it would be reality because somebody have "seen" him and so on.
Now - of course using Elvis as an example is "cheap" due to easy explainable - however it goes to show that subjective accounts does not mean reality outside that subject.

[galraen]

I have to agree with Xandax on this issue, and Mah, what you described happening to your younger brother I've known others describe as 'the gift of Tongues'. Those that ascribe such occurences as the gift of tongues would be outraged that you appear to imply it's demonic possession and not a holy blessing. Different cultures I guess.

[Maharlika]

I have to agree with Xandax on this issue, and Mah, what you described happening to your younger brother I've known others describe as 'the gift of Tongues'. Those that ascribe such occurences as the gift of tongues would be outraged that you appear to imply it's demonic possession and not a holy blessing. Different cultures I guess.

It would have been considered "A Gift of Tongues" if the words spoken out were those in line with the tenets or words of the Catholic Faith. It would have been seen as a "holy blessing" if the individual was conscious and that the ability to speak in tongues was used to spread the word of God among non-believers whose native language is alien to that of the missionary.

During his "unnatural state" my brother was asked in Akeanon who he/she was (said that she was a female spirit), why was she within my brother's body (she said she fancies him). The "spirit" claimed that she "met" my brother while he was playing in the rice field and that she followed us to Manila. The language used by both questioner and "spirit" were in fluent Akeanon --- a language my then 6 y.o. brother couldn't have mastered in such a short time since his exposure to the target language (much less its application) was very very minimal. This could hardly be seen as using the alleged gift for missionary purposes.

I would like to clarify that I'm not trying to convince everyone here to believe me. I wouldn't care any less if people don't. I'm pretty much sure and I have already anticipated that a number of you would take my claim with a grain of salt. All I'm saying is that as far as I'm concerned, seeing first-hand what happened to my brother, I believe in possession.

If people believe me, fine. If they don't, it's fine too.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZN0bqk_P38"]This footage[/url] may or may not be of a real exorcism - the series maker/exorcismee [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Safran_vs_God#Episode_eight"]apparently doesn't remember much[/url] so the jury's still out...

[endboss]

I wish I had something else to add myself but I am enjoying reading the responses here.

[Sain]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZN0bqk_P38"]This footage[/url] may or may not be of a real exorcism - the series maker/exorcismee [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Safran_vs_God#Episode_eight"]apparently doesn't remember much[/url] so the jury's still out...

It's obviously acting. And bad acting.