Yello, y'all!
So I've finally got around to playing the NWN2 expansions, and for MotB, I want to do something very...esoteric. I want to try and make an interesting build with the Invisible Blade class, mainly because it seems so pointless. But I've never been good at build experimentation, and would like some tips.
Here's what I have in mind for the time being. First let's look at the IB class itself.
Honestly, there's not much to say. For one, it looks like a very low damage dealing class. Bleeding Wound looks interesting, but I really can't see a need to choose this class over something like Assassin or a Rogue's regular sneak attack with the additional perks like Crippling Strike. However, there is the fact that IBs have their INT modifier added to their AC. This could be useful.
So the only real way to get any mileage out of this class is to couple it with being a Wizard, right? Not really. There's a major problem with this: The IB class forces you to choose three feats that are of no use to a Wizard, 3 feat slots that could be used for something that would more than offset the loss of the INT AC bonus.
So trying to make the most of the IB's only useful trait turns out to be a dead end. I'm not convinced the only way to work in the IB class into a build is as a stealthy melee character.
Since one of the feats required for the IB class is two weapon fighting, and another is weapon focus in either daggers or kukris, I decided to go with a dual kukri wielding Strongheart halfling. So this is what I did.
These are the stats I gave him:
14 str
20 dex
8 con
14 int
8 wis
8 cha
I first took 6 levels of Ranger, so that I could get the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat, as well as decent base AB (went down the dual wield ranger route). After this, I decided to go for 8 levels of Rogue, figuring that the character could use a decent boost in damage through using sneak attacks. Plus, the Improved Uncanny Dodge feat couldn't hurt. I did consider waiting till level 10 for Slippery Mind or Crippling Strike, but meh.
So after 8 levels of rogue, I finally took the IB class. And as you've probably already guessed, it added nothing of worth. Plus, because of the skill distribution caused by 6 Ranger levels and 8 Rogue levels and a further four levels of IB, I feel the character has become very diluted.
Some of you might say that I should have started off with the Fighter class instead of Ranger, mainly because of it would help make the feat requirement quicker. Sure, go ahead. I worked it out in my head, and the only snag is having to invest points in INT for the Feint feat, and also for getting the required 8 levels of Bluff for choosing IB.
There's only one reason I used this highly convoluted build: because I've come to the conclusion that the IB class is something that is only usable if your planning on creating your character purely for role-playing purposes, and nothing more. Hence the rogue/ranger classes - because it suits my character's history. But otherwise, I can't think of anyway to work in the IB class into a build that is geared towards making a powerful, useful character.
Does anybody else have any thoughts on all this?
Character Creation Advice
An Invisible Blade is just a Prestige class, or an "add-on"/"continuation class".
It's major points of attraction are:
1. High BAB. (..though with only 5 levels this is somewhat of a dubious benefit.. at least for a medium BAB build.)
2. "Semi" Rogue-like skill selection with a High BAB progression.
3. "Semi" sneak attack damage via Bleeding Wound and Feint bonuses.
4. Intelligence AC modifier.
Now the *intended* class structure is for sneak attack damage via Feint - which leverages Bleeding Wound.
The trouble is that it's a progressive "staking" damage, not immediate out-right damage of a regular sneak attack. This usually results in more rounds before an opponent is killed (when compared to a purist sneak attack build). On the other hand considering that only 5 levels nets you the max +6 damage per round per attack - it's actually far superior in reality to a standard sneak attacker of the same level (..which would only have 3d6 of sneak attack damage).
With that in mind you need damage from additional sources - and a two-weapon fighter has that via additional attacks. (..and you can further add to this with the Monk class using Kamas if desired).
Now a more common sneak attack build could *also* include two-weapon fighting, so you then have to look at the other benefits of the class.
I think you are correct that the AC bonus is a "red herring" for most builds that use intelligence (Wizard and Assassin - though a Swasbuckler's Insightful Strike is useful). Wizards have other priorities and the feat selection is highly detrimental to a good Wizard build. Assassin's are specifically designed for traditional sneak attacks, NOT Feints (..i.e. Feint's won't qualify for the paralysis feature of an Assassin's Death Attack). A Swasbuckler's Insightful Strike is nice (and stacks with Strength-based bonus damage), but doesn't work with critically immune opponents.
Of the three - It makes more sense with the Swashbuckler. Between Wizard and Assassn it still makes more sense for the Assassin class: with the thought of a few Feint's in-between the "cool-down" period for Hiding via HiPS.
Frankly though you don't need significant intelligence from the character for the AC bonus. A 12 in intelligence with an additional +8 intelligence modifier ring or helm will net you your maximum +5 AC, so an intelligence "build" isn't really necessary. In fact Feint *generally* requires a 13 in intelligence, so you are already part of the "way there".
So.. what does that leave you with?
Well, back to Feint build with additional damage IN ADDITION TO TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING (added attacks).
That leaves:
1. Traditional Sneak Attack damage.
2. Weapon Modifier damage.
3. Strength bonus damage.
4. Fighter Specialization damage.
5. Enhanced Critical damage.
6. Divine Might.
7. Insightful Strike.
1. is "out" IMO.. If you are going to make a traditional sneak attack then by all means go "all-out" for it's build. Here a Rogue with one level of Shadow Dancer for HiPS is pretty much the best build.. with additional Rogue feats, both standard and Epic, full Sneak Attack progression, and the ability to get half sneak attack damage on critically immune opponents at Epic levels.
2. is a "no-brainer". In MOTB in particular the amount of elemental damage that can be crafted into each weapon is insane.
3. is unlikely, but still a viable option. Most people will want to push Dexterity for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting for the additional final attacks (..never mind if they will actually hit or not). Also, the Dexterity AC bonus stacks well with the Intelligence AC limitation on NOT wearing armor. HOWEVER.. a 21 level Ranger is an option.. You are already armor limited with the Ranger class and 21 levels of Ranger get you Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting for free without requiring a high Dexterity.
4. is more likely. If you can't have Strength bonus damage then you'll likely want Specialization damage. Additionally the class has many additional *useful* feats. Finally it *can* take care of the major gripe with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighter build: i.e. that attack numbers aren't good enough for the final additional off-hand attacks.
5. is likely out. Improved criticals means Weapon Master build, and the amount and usefulness of the required feats for that class is MORONIC. Further criticals leverage very specific damage modifiers: strength bonus, enhancement bonus, and specialization damage - and you should have all of it. This build likely won't.. i.e. enhancement bonus: yes; specialization damage: likely; significant strength bonus: no.
6. is an excellent idea. 1st off: it's not sneak attack immune. 2nd: it doesn't necessarily require any counter productive class levels of a strange class. 3rd: Feint's are Bluff-based, and Bluff is also leveraged with Charisma. Like the AC intelligence bonus, this doesn't have to mean having a high native Charisma, rather it means having a decent Charisma and utilizing a Charisma modifier (..in this case a +8 Nymph Cloak). Additionally, while an Epic Divine Might build would be nice.. it's neither required, nor is it practical (..because EDM requires both a native 21 in Strength and Charisma). Finally any Divine Might build has the potential to also include Divine Shield.. which can help out with AC rather substantially for short periods. The negatives to this are that each takes up a feat selection AND Power Attack is also required (..which in itself requires a native 13 in strength), and of course a class that has obtained Turn Undead: (Cleric, Blackguard, Paladin).
7. is a good possibility. However it is sneak attack immune, so it doesn't provide any benefits against such opponents. On of the benefits of this class-feat is that the class ALSO provides Weapon Finesse for "free" (..at Swashbuckler level 1).
IMO that leaves a Dexterity based build or a Strength based build.
For Strength-based you have either a 21 level Ranger or a Bard/RDD build to leverage the Strength bonus of the RDD class.
For Dexterity it's much more "free-form", and provides you several opportunities.
Personally for me - a 21 level Ranger class is a Ranger, no matter if you have 5 levels of IB or not.. so IMO it's out.
A Bard RDD build is viable, and has several "perks". It's *particularly* viable if you aren't interested in a Perfect Two-Weapon fighting and would rather have strong Strength-based build with "only" Greater Two Weapon fighting. (..and note that at higher levels of RDD you also get an additional +2 to Intelligence and Charisma).
Alternatively you have the Dexterity based build, and there are a number of options here. Most builds however should leverage the Fighter as the "base" build and include Able Learner to "shovel" points into bluff along the build life until latter selecting the IB class. For the most part though it should be a Two-Weapon *Fighter* build (and only latter adding-in the IB class).
BTW, my personal IB preference is for a NON-Perfect Two Weapon Fighting build using Bard/RDD/*CLERIC* with the race as Yuan-Ti. Another option (dexterity based Perfect Two Weapon Fighter) I like is Fighter/Warlock/Blackguard (and again, Yuan-Ti).. though most of the added "extras" are very late in the build life.
It's major points of attraction are:
1. High BAB. (..though with only 5 levels this is somewhat of a dubious benefit.. at least for a medium BAB build.)
2. "Semi" Rogue-like skill selection with a High BAB progression.
3. "Semi" sneak attack damage via Bleeding Wound and Feint bonuses.
4. Intelligence AC modifier.
Now the *intended* class structure is for sneak attack damage via Feint - which leverages Bleeding Wound.
The trouble is that it's a progressive "staking" damage, not immediate out-right damage of a regular sneak attack. This usually results in more rounds before an opponent is killed (when compared to a purist sneak attack build). On the other hand considering that only 5 levels nets you the max +6 damage per round per attack - it's actually far superior in reality to a standard sneak attacker of the same level (..which would only have 3d6 of sneak attack damage).
With that in mind you need damage from additional sources - and a two-weapon fighter has that via additional attacks. (..and you can further add to this with the Monk class using Kamas if desired).
Now a more common sneak attack build could *also* include two-weapon fighting, so you then have to look at the other benefits of the class.
I think you are correct that the AC bonus is a "red herring" for most builds that use intelligence (Wizard and Assassin - though a Swasbuckler's Insightful Strike is useful). Wizards have other priorities and the feat selection is highly detrimental to a good Wizard build. Assassin's are specifically designed for traditional sneak attacks, NOT Feints (..i.e. Feint's won't qualify for the paralysis feature of an Assassin's Death Attack). A Swasbuckler's Insightful Strike is nice (and stacks with Strength-based bonus damage), but doesn't work with critically immune opponents.
Of the three - It makes more sense with the Swashbuckler. Between Wizard and Assassn it still makes more sense for the Assassin class: with the thought of a few Feint's in-between the "cool-down" period for Hiding via HiPS.
Frankly though you don't need significant intelligence from the character for the AC bonus. A 12 in intelligence with an additional +8 intelligence modifier ring or helm will net you your maximum +5 AC, so an intelligence "build" isn't really necessary. In fact Feint *generally* requires a 13 in intelligence, so you are already part of the "way there".
So.. what does that leave you with?
Well, back to Feint build with additional damage IN ADDITION TO TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING (added attacks).
That leaves:
1. Traditional Sneak Attack damage.
2. Weapon Modifier damage.
3. Strength bonus damage.
4. Fighter Specialization damage.
5. Enhanced Critical damage.
6. Divine Might.
7. Insightful Strike.
1. is "out" IMO.. If you are going to make a traditional sneak attack then by all means go "all-out" for it's build. Here a Rogue with one level of Shadow Dancer for HiPS is pretty much the best build.. with additional Rogue feats, both standard and Epic, full Sneak Attack progression, and the ability to get half sneak attack damage on critically immune opponents at Epic levels.
2. is a "no-brainer". In MOTB in particular the amount of elemental damage that can be crafted into each weapon is insane.
3. is unlikely, but still a viable option. Most people will want to push Dexterity for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting for the additional final attacks (..never mind if they will actually hit or not). Also, the Dexterity AC bonus stacks well with the Intelligence AC limitation on NOT wearing armor. HOWEVER.. a 21 level Ranger is an option.. You are already armor limited with the Ranger class and 21 levels of Ranger get you Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting for free without requiring a high Dexterity.
4. is more likely. If you can't have Strength bonus damage then you'll likely want Specialization damage. Additionally the class has many additional *useful* feats. Finally it *can* take care of the major gripe with Perfect Two-Weapon Fighter build: i.e. that attack numbers aren't good enough for the final additional off-hand attacks.
5. is likely out. Improved criticals means Weapon Master build, and the amount and usefulness of the required feats for that class is MORONIC. Further criticals leverage very specific damage modifiers: strength bonus, enhancement bonus, and specialization damage - and you should have all of it. This build likely won't.. i.e. enhancement bonus: yes; specialization damage: likely; significant strength bonus: no.
6. is an excellent idea. 1st off: it's not sneak attack immune. 2nd: it doesn't necessarily require any counter productive class levels of a strange class. 3rd: Feint's are Bluff-based, and Bluff is also leveraged with Charisma. Like the AC intelligence bonus, this doesn't have to mean having a high native Charisma, rather it means having a decent Charisma and utilizing a Charisma modifier (..in this case a +8 Nymph Cloak). Additionally, while an Epic Divine Might build would be nice.. it's neither required, nor is it practical (..because EDM requires both a native 21 in Strength and Charisma). Finally any Divine Might build has the potential to also include Divine Shield.. which can help out with AC rather substantially for short periods. The negatives to this are that each takes up a feat selection AND Power Attack is also required (..which in itself requires a native 13 in strength), and of course a class that has obtained Turn Undead: (Cleric, Blackguard, Paladin).
7. is a good possibility. However it is sneak attack immune, so it doesn't provide any benefits against such opponents. On of the benefits of this class-feat is that the class ALSO provides Weapon Finesse for "free" (..at Swashbuckler level 1).
IMO that leaves a Dexterity based build or a Strength based build.
For Strength-based you have either a 21 level Ranger or a Bard/RDD build to leverage the Strength bonus of the RDD class.
For Dexterity it's much more "free-form", and provides you several opportunities.
Personally for me - a 21 level Ranger class is a Ranger, no matter if you have 5 levels of IB or not.. so IMO it's out.
A Bard RDD build is viable, and has several "perks". It's *particularly* viable if you aren't interested in a Perfect Two-Weapon fighting and would rather have strong Strength-based build with "only" Greater Two Weapon fighting. (..and note that at higher levels of RDD you also get an additional +2 to Intelligence and Charisma).
Alternatively you have the Dexterity based build, and there are a number of options here. Most builds however should leverage the Fighter as the "base" build and include Able Learner to "shovel" points into bluff along the build life until latter selecting the IB class. For the most part though it should be a Two-Weapon *Fighter* build (and only latter adding-in the IB class).
BTW, my personal IB preference is for a NON-Perfect Two Weapon Fighting build using Bard/RDD/*CLERIC* with the race as Yuan-Ti. Another option (dexterity based Perfect Two Weapon Fighter) I like is Fighter/Warlock/Blackguard (and again, Yuan-Ti).. though most of the added "extras" are very late in the build life.
Here is a build I just did that accelerates the selection of the Invisible Blade class while enhancing it's Feint-based Bleeding Wound Attacks:
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=46808&version=1
Of course remember that to achieve a Feint you'll need to add it (drag and drop) from your character sheet section to the "Quick Bar", and then select that Feint button and right click on the intended victim. (..using it again, and again, and again.)
Note that even if the opponent is critically immune, that Feint's can still provide useful benefits in denying an opponent's Dexterity, Dodge, and Tumble bonuses to AC.
A more traditional (stealth/HiPS) alternative is another build I did a while back:
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=29332&version=1
It is however *quite* different save-wise and trades Divine Might/Shield for Insightful Strike damage bonus - meaning most of your damage against critically immune opponents will come from enchanted weapon damage.
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=46808&version=1
Of course remember that to achieve a Feint you'll need to add it (drag and drop) from your character sheet section to the "Quick Bar", and then select that Feint button and right click on the intended victim. (..using it again, and again, and again.)
Note that even if the opponent is critically immune, that Feint's can still provide useful benefits in denying an opponent's Dexterity, Dodge, and Tumble bonuses to AC.
A more traditional (stealth/HiPS) alternative is another build I did a while back:
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=29332&version=1
It is however *quite* different save-wise and trades Divine Might/Shield for Insightful Strike damage bonus - meaning most of your damage against critically immune opponents will come from enchanted weapon damage.
for SOZ i decided to make one rouge hybrid along similar lines:
12 str
16 dex
16 con
16 int
8 wis
8 cha
early levels were a mix of rogue, swashbuckler & Invisible Blade, she turned out ok. @ level 18 she was:
10 rogue
5 invisible blade
3 swashbuckler
(with equipment)
str 16
dex 26
con 18
int 18
wis 8
cha 8
with a little more tweaking i could have squeezed in some more bonus int, cha & str, but it wasn't real high priority.
(free) finesse from the swash levels + the high bab levels let her hit often w/ sneak damage, the bleeds and her feints.
on top of that weapon enchants like 2d6 vs evil, coupled with d6 elemental, and a backup set of 2d6 vs evil & 2d6 vs undead - meant she was dishing out alot of damage even in non sneak situations.
the wide crit range of the kuriki certainly helped as well, foe hunting teamwork feat provided more bonus damage vs certain enemies.
the "high" int, the rogue levels and the able learner feat gave her great skills.
she spent most of the game in a robe, and finally settled into (thanks to UAI) an arcane scholar robe w/ something like a 5 armor bonus, her ac was around 35 with minimal buffs from equipment & spells (which was the highest on the team)
as a result she was a very good all around melee platform, and could handle all thief skills, as well as some bluff conversations. there were a handful of wands we enchanted for her as well, which were for more special situations. (having a very survivable toon with a wand of cure critical wounds is handy in SOZ)
evasion + high reflex made her highly resistant to area spells, and her con added a lot of beef to her frame - she could take a pounding in combat - but rarely needed to.
--
if i were to level her further, i'd look at 3 more levels of swashbuckler, 2 of rogue and maybe 7 weapon master, or just stick to building more swash and or rogue levels.
--
imho she would be good as a primary toon too, but she was built for a combat ready thief role, and compliment to a party of ranger, cleric & mage.
i went:blueblip wrote:Yello, y'all!
Since one of the feats required for the IB class is two weapon fighting, and another is weapon focus in either daggers or kukris, I decided to go with a dual kukri wielding Strongheart halfling. So this is what I did.
These are the stats I gave him:
14 str
20 dex
8 con
14 int
8 wis
8 cha
12 str
16 dex
16 con
16 int
8 wis
8 cha
early levels were a mix of rogue, swashbuckler & Invisible Blade, she turned out ok. @ level 18 she was:
10 rogue
5 invisible blade
3 swashbuckler
(with equipment)
str 16
dex 26
con 18
int 18
wis 8
cha 8
with a little more tweaking i could have squeezed in some more bonus int, cha & str, but it wasn't real high priority.
(free) finesse from the swash levels + the high bab levels let her hit often w/ sneak damage, the bleeds and her feints.
on top of that weapon enchants like 2d6 vs evil, coupled with d6 elemental, and a backup set of 2d6 vs evil & 2d6 vs undead - meant she was dishing out alot of damage even in non sneak situations.
the wide crit range of the kuriki certainly helped as well, foe hunting teamwork feat provided more bonus damage vs certain enemies.
the "high" int, the rogue levels and the able learner feat gave her great skills.
she spent most of the game in a robe, and finally settled into (thanks to UAI) an arcane scholar robe w/ something like a 5 armor bonus, her ac was around 35 with minimal buffs from equipment & spells (which was the highest on the team)
as a result she was a very good all around melee platform, and could handle all thief skills, as well as some bluff conversations. there were a handful of wands we enchanted for her as well, which were for more special situations. (having a very survivable toon with a wand of cure critical wounds is handy in SOZ)
evasion + high reflex made her highly resistant to area spells, and her con added a lot of beef to her frame - she could take a pounding in combat - but rarely needed to.
--
if i were to level her further, i'd look at 3 more levels of swashbuckler, 2 of rogue and maybe 7 weapon master, or just stick to building more swash and or rogue levels.
--
imho she would be good as a primary toon too, but she was built for a combat ready thief role, and compliment to a party of ranger, cleric & mage.
"all around you is tinder for the gods"