NWN2 Newbie

[Ares2382]

Like I said Sorcerer/ASOCK is a great combo. I have Kaedrin's Class Pack installed as well, and I finished a campaign as a sorc (8)/paladin (2)/ASOCK (10)/Heartwarder(10). Which is basically a beefed up version of this combo.

Talk about a scary spell caster. Makes almost all saves against spells, huge number of his own spells. . And spell DC is actually pretty high. Not as high as Wizard/RWoT in his chose school, but still very high, and it's very high in all schools, which is a plus. You'll almost never fail a diplomacy check except very early on in the game

Both sorcerer and wizard require good knowledge of spells, and sorcerer is arguably a bit harder on the new player in the sense that you really need to know which spells to choose, because you're stuck with them, and you can only switch out a limited number at level ups.

A wizard in a campaign is a bit more forgiving in the sense that if you didn't bring the right spells to a fight you just load up a save from before the fight, memorize new spells rest and try again.

Either way, both combos will dominate just about anything in the campaign specially at higher levels.

[Arbok]

Wow, thanks a lot- I'll give the Sorcerer a try, I've been raring to fireball stuff.

[Scottg]

Wow, thanks a lot- I'll give the Sorcerer a try, I've been raring to fireball stuff.

What's really cool about it is:

Fireball from 3rd level spell grouping, Fireball empowered from 4th level spell grouping, Cacophonic Burst 5th level spell grouping, Cacophonic Burst Empowered at 6th level spell grouping, Delayed Fireball at 7th level spell grouping, Delayed Fireball empowered at 8th level spell grouping, Horrid Wilting empowered at 9th level spell grouping.

*Average* damage to all in area effect (with "max" damage based on class level for that spell) assuming failed Reflex-save:
3rd level spells: Fireball 30
4th level spells: Fireball Empowered 45
5th level spells: Cacophonic Burst 45 OR Fireball Maximized 60
6th level spells: Cacophonic Burst Empowered 67
7th level spells: Delayed Fireball 60 OR Cacophonic Burst Maximized 90
8th level spells: Delayed Fireball Empowered 90
9th level spells: Horrid Wilting Empowered 90 OR Delayed Fireball Maximized 120

(Note: both Empowered and Maximized are based on their "improved" versions from the Arcane Scholar class.)

The real "sweet spot" for instant area effect damage is Greater Fireburst empowered: 90 for a 6th level spell grouping. (120 Maximized.) It doesn't have the ability to target an area however (..it's all centered on the caster, but doesn't damage the caster).

On the basis of single target damage the "sweet spot" is Flame Arrow empowered because it doesn't stop scaling with level. At character level 30 (class level 33 for this character), its average damage in total to one opponent (on a failed reflex save for each arrow) is: 144, and that's only from the 4th level spell group. (192 Maximized.)

If you can keep the effect to only one opponent then Isaac's Greater Missile Storm empowered will average 120. If you run-out of the 7th level spell grouping then you can move up to the 8th level group and use it Maximized (..which is also 120 damage to a single opponent).

Depending on how many hitpoints an opponent has - Avasculate is likely the "king" though for single target damage in the Sorcerer/Wizard grouping.. 400 hit points? 200 hit points of damage. 7th level spell grouping.

[Scottg]

Both sorcerer and wizard require good knowledge of spells, and sorcerer is arguably a bit harder on the new player in the sense that you really need to know which spells to choose, because you're stuck with them, and you can only switch out a limited number at level ups.

A wizard in a campaign is a bit more forgiving in the sense that if you didn't bring the right spells to a fight you just load up a save from before the fight, memorize new spells rest and try again.

That's the critical point.

It's also why my notes section on the build is so long - so that you have less chance of failure by selecting the right spells at the right time. (..and even briefly going into how/when to use them.)

The player must always consider the opponent's strengths - particularly their saves and damage resistance/reduction/immunity.

Of course 85% of the opponents in the OC are Fortitude-save types, so most of those Reflex-save spells will fully work. Only the rare fire-immune opponents *would* be problematic if it weren't for the fact that (at the time those opponents show-up in the OC), the build also spec.s sound and magical damage.

The other problems are

1. Reflex-types: Rogues, but typically this character's DC penetration is enough to provide at least half damage to the stronger Rogues (..and unless you do the City Watch portion you might not even have them to contend with).

2. Spell Resistance-types: Githyanki/Slyph. With this build as a non-level penalty race with a purist class structure (at least beyond their point in the campaign), *most* of the spells will work most of the time. (..for the most part it's only been at the start of the campaign where I've run-into more problems with spell resistance, and the build spec.s spells at the start that are all summon related, NOT magical damage.)


Once you get past spell selection - you tend to "pick-up" spell use pretty quickly (..or at least others I've talked to have). At that point the Sorcerer actually becomes *easier* to play - i.e. pick the spell that works and "spam" the hell out of it (..something a Wizard is not nearly as capable of doing).

[Tricky]

Since it's along the same subject, which preferable spells would a sorcerer(ish) player take through MotB?

[Scottg]

Since it's along the same subject, which preferable spells would a sorcerer(ish) player take through MotB?

With these meta-magic feats.. the same spells listed in the build.

Here they are:

Spell Selection (cantrips not shown):
1. Mage Armor, Summon Creature I.
2.
3. Protection from Alignment.
4. Remove Summon Creature I and replace with Magic Weapon; Summon Creature II.
5. Shield, Mirror Image.
6. Remove Summon Creature II and replace with Scorching Ray; Fireball.
7. Remove Magic Weapon and replace with Grease; Magic Missile, Invisibility, Spiderskin.
8. Fear.
9. Gust of Wind, Flame Arrow, Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm.
10. Greater Fireburst.
11. Remove Mage Armor replace with Expeditious Retreat; Blindsight, Improved Mage Armor, Lesser Spell Breach, Cacophonic Burst
12. Ethereal Visage.
13. Elemental Shield, Lesser Spell Mantle, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm.
14.
15: Remove Isaac's Lesser Missile Storm replace with Orb of Acid; Hiss of Sleep.
16. Replace Shield with Ray of Enfeeblement, Bigby's Interposing Hand, Bigby's Forceful Hand, Avasculate.
17. Greater Planar Binding.
18. Delayed Fireball, Horrid Wilting.
19. Bigby's Crushing Hand.
20. Premonition, Mordenkanien's Disjuntion.
21. Wail of the Banshee.
22. Nightshield.
23. Darkness.
24. Vampiric Touch.
25. Enervation.
26. Hold Monster.
27. Greater Heroism.
28. Energy Immunity.
29. Incendiary Cloud.
30. Shadow Simulacrum.

[Scottg]

I should note that I've recently played through with almost exactly this listing - both campaigns. It was a Kaedrins build, so a few things were different (..Horrid Wilting in particular isn't as powerful in Kaedrins, nor is Bigby's Interposing Hand - I think I went with Polar Ray (for the improved empowerment) and Sound Blast respectively).

The only one that had little use was Gust of Wind (..other than to remove my own spells - grease mainly).

The ONLY battle that I found truly difficult was near the final sequence (siding with Defenders), against the group of Solars. (..highest difficulty setting, with only Kaelyn (actually it was no companions) and whatever support the Defenders provided.) Further - that particular build did not have Armor or Shields.

[Tricky]

Did you get any interesting use out of Shadow Simulacrum? I tend to avoid touch attack spells late in the game, because (I assume) I will miss most of the time anyway.

[Scottg]

Did you get any interesting use out of Shadow Simulacrum? I tend to avoid touch attack spells late in the game, because (I assume) I will miss most of the time anyway.

Because I did some grinding I was up to level 30 by the point I was battling the Solars.. It was really the saving spell for me in that battle (..and I didn't even "buff" it - though I should have). I started using Wail.. no good. Then moved to several Bigby's attacks and adding a few Greases, then dropped in an empowered Incendiary cloud to let them "cook".. not a lot of damage (because of resistance). The leader in particular only seemed to be damaged by a Crushing Hand - and even then not much damage each round. They were also healing themselves (and even raising their own dead).

At some point the henchmen Solars broke free and I was screwed, so I went over and used my last level 9 spell on the leader Solar - Shadow Simulacrum. COMPLETE DISTRACTION with some substantial damage to the henchmen. Gave me the time I needed to pound the leader with carefully placed empowered Issac's Greater Missile Storms until he was dead. Not a lot remained of the Henchmen at that point.

Didn't work on the final "boss" (in any version), or if it did I don't remember it being *effective*. But, it's not like it was needed - Crushing Hand made the battle pitifully easy.

I *think* I've also tried it on the final "boss" in the OC and it didn't work there either. (..might be mis-remembering though.)

BTW, if you've not done the "Defenders" before on the highest difficulty setting - I *HIGHLY* recommend it! Lots of fun! (..particularly without companions.)


As for the "touch" component - it's a melee touch attack. So even with a low BAB for such a high level it's not that difficult (assuming you "roll" well). (..I should mention that my Belt was +10 Strength courtesy of certain bear's soul.) Perhaps Crushing Hand was doing its part to remove Dexterity and Dodge bonuses under a "flat-footed" condition? It's only at *low* levels that touch attacks (melee or ranged) often fail due to a near non-existent BAB (and often no modifier bonus).

Attacker: 1[url='http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/D20']d20[/url] + [url='http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Base_attack_bonus']base attack bonus[/url] + Strength bonus + attack bonuses
Defender: 10 + [url='http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Dexterity']Dexterity[/url] bonus + [url='http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Dodge_bonus']Dodge[/url] AC bonus + [url='http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Deflection_bonus']Deflection[/url] AC bonus+ [url='http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Size_modifier']Size modifier[/url]

[Tricky]

Interesting, I should try to keep that in mind. I have at some point even thought about an arcane build that specialized in touch attacks, but it always came at too much of a sacrifice. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was some sort of PrC that focused on touch attacks? Monk saves progression.. intelligence or charisma bonus to AC.. slippery mind.. only has access to touch attack spells. Yum.

Didn't work on the final "boss" (in any version), or if it did I don't remember it being *effective*. But, it's not like it was needed - Crushing Hand made the battle pitifully easy.

I *think* I've also tried it on the final "boss" in the OC and it didn't work there either. (..might be mis-remembering though.)

I'm pretty certain Shadow Simulacrum is bugged, maybe even in the final patch. Some dragons couldn't be copied and in other cases creatures with resistances could only be copied with their resistances turned to weaknesses instead. That might not be the extend of the problem though.

I'm also uncertain if anything already tied to the Plane of Shadow could again be manipulated in such a way. But when it comes to the game itself, that somehow seems to be the kind of programming detail that is generally overlooked.

[EastFrame]

There appears to be an optimum melee build for this game: Rogue 5, Fighter 5, Duellist 10. It has a higher hit bonus, higher armour class and deals more damage than any other. As well has having all the conversation skills at a high level (but you'll have to take Neeshka along to disarm traps etc). You should have enough use item/Chr bonus to use wands and scrolls too.

Start as a Rogue (swashbuckler preset or very similar), level up alternately with fighter to Fighter 4/ Rogue 3, ensuring you get weapon specialization: Rapier as well as the requirements for Duellist. Then level up 10 levels in that, returning to rogue at level 18. DO NOT get whirlwind attack - it's largely useless, the mobility advantages of this prestige class is good enough, plus you never have enough enemies within attack range to make it worthwhile.

The duellist's special abilities that offer far more damage (with an optimised weapon, worth about 6d6 damage) than any other class with a 1h piercing weapon equipped, plus the Duellists Garb (purchased from Deekin) hastes the whole party when used.

On the other hand, the game is a bit easy with this build...

Also worth noting that "Holy Weapon" characteristic adds 2d6 divine damage vs. Evil. Almost all your enemies are evil. Adding disruption ability to your weapon, due to a game bug works, on anything with low fortitude saves, not just undead!

[Scottg]

Interesting, I should try to keep that in mind. I have at some point even thought about an arcane build that specialized in touch attacks, but it always came at too much of a sacrifice. Wouldn't it be interesting if there was some sort of PrC that focused on touch attacks? Monk saves progression.. intelligence or charisma bonus to AC.. slippery mind.. only has access to touch attack spells. Yum.


I'm pretty certain Shadow Simulacrum is bugged, maybe even in the final patch. Some dragons couldn't be copied and in other cases creatures with resistances could only be copied with their resistances turned to weaknesses instead. That might not be the extend of the problem though.

I'm also uncertain if anything already tied to the Plane of Shadow could again be manipulated in such a way. But when it comes to the game itself, that somehow seems to be the kind of programming detail that is generally overlooked.

There are LOT's of classes I'd like to see created (..not just implemented from PnP). In fact I posted at least two of several "concept" classes on Kaedrins forum that I've written down (and I have several more). (..Shinobi as a base class and Mentalist as a prestige class should be there somewhere.)

Here is the Shinobi:
http://nwn2customcontent.forumotion.com ... -part-deux

Here is the Mentalist:
http://nwn2customcontent.forumotion.com ... tige-class

(..the Mentalist would be tough to implement.)

A melee touch attack build would be good - BUT it would need more spells, likely pulling from all 3 categories (Arcane, Cleric, and Druid). Sort of a Spirit Shaman type build as an "inversion" to a Warlock (..which is ranged touch attack).


Yup, Shadow Simulacrum seems to have some limitation with "size" - larger creatures don't seem to be something you can "copy". As for the final boss on MOTB, it could have been that I never made the touch attack. I wish I still had the game saved to check it.

[Scottg]

There appears to be an optimum melee build for this game..

There are a massive range of melee builds, "optimum" is pretty much specific to what the builder desires.

With a level 20 build highest damage per round (consistently) to one opponent is from a dual-kama build with 11 levels of Monk (for Greater Flurry) and 9 levels of Cleric (+ practiced spell caster Cleric) with various buffs including Divine Power & Haste (..Strength domain and Time domain) + max enchanted damage in each kama.

Trouble is though, it's not that great at every level - pretty much only near the top of its range (..say level 18-20 depending on how it's built).

My favorite builds for pure melee are high strength (Earth Genesai) Fighter/FB's for 5 levels wielding a two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon with Improved Power Attack on. The weapons would either be Falchion (for max number of criticals), or Scythe's (for max damage from a critical). In conjunction with Supreme Cleave against multiple opponents it's a devastating combination. Built well, it has excellent damage at any level.

[Oquin & Terian]

You could always go for a warlock, Its got unlimited spells, Sexy armour, good with a bow if you have enough dex or wis with zen shooting