What is your religion?

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 4:26 pm

Worldfrog writes:
One of the Roman historians (I believe it was Herodotus) wrote that so many people had claimed to see Christ after his crucifixion that it could not be discounted as false.

Not Herodotus. He was a Greek, who died several hundred years earlier. And wasn't it just a small handful of disciples who claimed to see Jesus directly after his death?

Alternatively, if we're speaking of the number of people who claim to have seen Christ since the founding of the Christian religion as some sort of proof, I suppose we could count the even larger number who claim to have seen Vishnu, or Krishna, or Siva, as proof of the truth of Hinduism. Perhaps it would be fairer to say that people unconsciously interpret mystical experiences in the light of their conscious beliefs--which is not intended to mean that Christianity or Hinduism are false.

They may both be right, even when they contradict one another. Who says any god necessarily plays by any book's rules?

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 4:50 pm

Originally posted by average joe:
I see that big goofy smile C E, but i gots to ask....are you serious???

No, I wasn't entirely serious, that's why I put the "biggrin" smiley there. I was merely simplifying and to point out to Grimreaper that I certainly don't think he's an satanist.
Some parts are serious though, and I'll explain what I mean.

I'm not at all well informed about current satanist movements, but where I live, some satanist groups claim they believe in the whole bible and in the same principles as a christian except of course that you should model your life after christ. This, of course, is a major difference. What I meant with jokingly calling satanism a subtype of christianty was only that some satanists believe in the truth of the whole bible, but describe themselves as having chosen "the other side".

My post was in no way meant to offened any christian people, and I sincerely hope you don't feel my post was offensive to your own faith and values.

The part I was totally serious about though, is that an atheist can never be a satanist with the current definitions of satanism. I know that atheists and people who had other beliefs were sometimes called satanists by christians a long time ago, but nowadays, the term satanism implies you have to believe at least in satan, and since satan is a transcendent being, an atheist can't believe in satan per definition.

If you still feel offended by my post, please post again and I'll try to explain further.

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 4:53 pm

Hmmmm, why hasn't anyone said Jehovah's Witness yet????

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 5:57 pm

Originally posted by Darkpoet:
Hmmmm, why hasn't anyone said Jehovah's Witness yet????

Because the discussion has not developed to that phase yet

Just be patient, we all know it's predeterminded to happen...

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:41 pm

Originally posted by fable:
@AJ, would I be right in assuming that one must be born again into Christ through conscious acceptance? That this is necessary to reach heaven? Assuming this is so, what happens to infants too young to make any conscious decision, and who die before they can?

Note: I am not razzing you. This is actually a topic that we touched upon briefly a couple of months back.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

In answer to all your questions except the last, yes. In answer to your last, i unfortunately have no answer. I certainly don't have all the answers. I know you were not accusing me of stating such, but i felt the need to clear it up. I have heard references to a theory known as the "age of accountability," but i think that this is not referred to anywhere in the Bible. Nor do i know what the "age" of accountability is. I would like to believe that God takes care of the children to young to consciously accept Christ, but i won't claim anything to be truth. It is a very good question though, Fable. One i often wonder about myself. Don't worry. I do not think i'm being razed at all. I would know if i was, and i seriously doubt you and i will ever come to a point of animosity between one another.

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:46 pm

Originally posted by C Elegans:

If you still feel offended by my post, please post again and I'll try to explain further.

Goodness no, CE. It is not you that offends me. I can see where you would think that by my post, however, and i apoligize for not being more clear. The "some people" i referred to were not non-Christians who misunderstand Christianity, but those who claim Christianity as their faith, yet fail to live by it or even properly understand it. Such people are a major reason for the misunderstanding surrounding Christianity, and it is quite upsetting. As i said, i respect your opinion, and i was quite sure you were only joking. It was the "big goofy smile" that tipped me off. I gave one, too, hoping you'd know it was not you that i was upset with. Once again, I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:54 pm

@Mad
First, you may be right on my first paragraph. I still think Jesus said what I wrote though I am not sure of the reference. Second, I believe you misinterpreted my second paragraph. Mainly, what I said is not what I believe, but what I present as a theoretical situation if the whole Christian religion is true. If it is true, than I do think everything would have to be predetermined, despite our supposed "free will." We may be able to choose, but if God already know what we're going to choose, then I believe that is basically preplanned. Also, I also think we are being controlled in that situation. I admit neither God nor Satan force us to do anything, we still do what they want. Mainly because, if we follow God, then we will want to do what he says, and if we don't, than Satan is to good at tempting us for us to turn away without God's help, and therefore, either way, we are being controlled, though not directly. Again, everything I said here is theoretical. It's all based around IF there was a God, which I don't believe there is, so I do not believe in any of this.

@Darkpoet
The Jehovah's Witness have actually already been brought up. If you look back a page or two you'll find my rambling on hell. Just about everything there is from Jehovah's Witness teachings. And in case your wondering, I got my information on them because one of my good friends is a Jehovah's Witness.

Edit:
About the children that are to young to make a conscious decision, I hate to tell you, but they could not be saved. The reason is because since Adam's fall, we are all born spiritually "dead" (that is, born of the world and not of God). Also, we stay spiritually dead until we make the decision to follow God. When we accept God is when we become spiritually alive again, and therefore children who cannot consciously accept God are spiritually dead, and cannot be saved. If they could, then why couldn't the rest of atheists?

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: GrimReaper ]

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:54 pm

@average joe: I'm happy to hear that

I would have been quite sad if I had offended you.

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 9:15 am

Originally posted by GrimReaper:
About the children that are to young to make a conscious decision, I hate to tell you, but they could not be saved. The reason is because since Adam's fall, we are all born spiritually "dead" (that is, born of the world and not of God). Also, we stay spiritually dead until we make the decision to follow God. When we accept God is when we become spiritually alive again, and therefore children who cannot consciously accept God are spiritually dead, and cannot be saved. If they could, then why couldn't the rest of atheists?

This is one of the saddest conclusions of some branches of Christianity, IMO--think of the billions of children and infants whom this system of belief would condemn to everlasting torment. Not five minutes; not a day; not a year. Not even a lifetime. For eternity. Such a system is repellent to me. Need I explain further why?

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:28 pm

With still no response to my last post, I have come up with yet another problem with Christianity. It's just a simple question. And for your enjoyment, here it is. Why did God put that tree there in the first place? What did he expect humans to do with Satan lurking around? And now you see that God may indirectly be the cause of all sin. And now I ask for responses to this. And please don't tell me that it was the tree of life so it had to be there, because God can do anything he wants, including removing the tree of life, or at least moving it to somewhere where they couldn't get to it.

Jo_b_1 · Post by **Jo_b_1** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 4:49 pm

@Grimreaper. Please get it right. It's not the Tree of Life, it's the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

"And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat of from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die" Genesis 2:16-17 NIV

Your response is comming, but I encourage you to get your paraphrasing correct.

I have a large answer for you comming but for now you'll have to deal with this. It is common practice among law and western philsophy (which is largely based on the Bible) that a person cannot be held accountable for another persons decisions (I'll get Bible references if you want them also refer to postings by Polaris in the BG2 Thread "Debt to Sarevok"). That statement given, some might say that God is still responsible. No, he's not, let's get back to free will. Adam and Eve had free will. They didn't have to sit there and listen to the serpent, they could have went and enlisted God's help in the matter, but instead they chose to go off on their own. This is the long and short of the matter. Period.

Remember Grimreaper, God loves you and I'm not kidding about that.
-Mad

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 7:56 pm

Mad writes:
I have a large answer for you comming but for now you'll have to deal with this. It is common practice among law and western philsophy (which is largely based on the Bible)...

Although I am hardly a source for information regarding legal matters, as I recall, Western law derives directly from the Pax Romana, and its various medieval descendants (such as the Pax Salica, etc). It has nothing to do with the bible, because the Rome referred to was the Roman Republic, before Christ, and before Rome ever expressed an interest in conquering the Meditteranean world.

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Sat Aug 25, 2001 12:34 pm

@Mad
Sorry about my mistake with the tree. I didn't bother to look it up, but I think everyone knows what I mean. And now, to your response. I understand your reasoning, but I still think he could be held responsible. Mainly because he can see the future and he knew what was going to happen if he put that tree there. If God really loves us, why did he even give us the chance to fall, especially when he knew we would? It's like putting a big red button in front of someone, telling them not to press it, and then send someone over to tell them to press it.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Aug 25, 2001 8:59 pm

Originally posted by Mad:

Remember Grimreaper, God loves you and I'm not kidding about that.
-Mad

More like God loves you dead.

How do we know god is good. Maybe he's evil and loves to watch people worship him/her and then die.

Forgot the smilie.

[ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: ThorinOakensfield ]

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sat Aug 25, 2001 9:04 pm

---Important Notice----

I was just emailed by god, and he/she has informed me that i am to become a prophit and must spread god's word.
God has informed me that he/she will email me the details in time, and my mission is to spread th word of god throughout the internet.

God and I will convert everybody to believing in god and we will make the people suffer. Oh ****, i wasn't supposed to tell the mortals about it. God spare me.

Note-I am being forced to post smilies or otherwise sombodies going to get upset.

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Sun Aug 26, 2001 1:59 pm

Here's a peeve:

Christianity says god is benevolent. Okay, so then why would he create a world with evil in it?

Most people respond 'it's not god, it's Satan.' So then Satan has influence over the world like God.

Bam! You're not in a monotheism any more, it's a polytheism.

If god exists and there is only one god, it is much more likely that he is a nuetral god.

ThorinOakensfield · Post by **ThorinOakensfield** » Sun Aug 26, 2001 4:20 pm

---Part 2---

God's Agenda-

Convert the fool Weasel before his spam takes control of the net by using spam filters, spam hounds, and spams spammers.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sun Aug 26, 2001 4:45 pm

Null cos all the wars and stuff why'd he/it let it happen?

Garcia · Post by **Garcia** » Sun Aug 26, 2001 11:44 pm

Hi all sorry for my absent I have been away for a week (spain

) it is good to be back

God seems to be dead more or less

I didn't think that that many didn't believe in anything (religious) but I think that it is the tendency.

GrimReaper · Post by **GrimReaper** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 5:07 pm

Have all of our Christian friends run out of arguments? I'm wondering because there seem to have been a lot of atheists posting but the last Christian posting told me that God loves me. So, anyone out there?