The old Cleric /Druid Argument

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 3:40 pm

In SoA I think druids suck compared to clerics but by ToB they have improved no end. Here's my (longwinded) reasoning:

While clerics have many more spell slots in SoA, as soon as druids hit lvl 15 they get 6 spells of every level to cast, including 7th. They also level up VERY quickly after this, giving even more spells to cast and nearly all the good high level abilities the cleric would have to wait ages to get.

In addition the druid gets all the high level abilities of a cleric including the excellent Greater Elemental Summoning and Elemental Transformations - so for high level abilities the druid beats the cleric.

At level 25 the cleric gains a nifty holy symbol from his god (+1 str, 6th & 7th lvl spell, 5% MR) while the driud gains immunity to poison and 30% elemental damage by level 24. In my opinion the druids resistances are better because he can get the heartwood ring (6th & 7th lvl spell). This easily bests the +1 str and 5% MR from the clerics holy symbol.

As for armour, you may think that this is the druids weak point, but (in the politest possible way) you would be wrong!

Any druid, except for the shapeshifter, can wear the best armour in the game - white dragon scale.

The druid and cleric's weaponry choices are a matter of personal preference. On one hand the cleric can use the Flail of Ages or Storm Star, while the druid can use the Staff of Woodlands or Ixil's Spike +6, both great weapon choices.

When it comes to actual spells available the druid lacks spells like Prot. from Evil 10' radius, raise dead, chant and resurection, but has some really good things like doom (weaker but stackable version of greater malison), insect swarms/plagues, iron skins and elemental summoning. Raise dead is a very important spell, but if you have a mage who can summon a planetar or the rods of resurection it won't be hard to bring people back to life.

So in my opnion the druid is much better than the cleric in ToB, with one exception - the shapeshifter kit. The main reason I don't like the shapeshfter is because he can't wear armour. After you get elemental changes a greater werewolf doesen't seem all that great, but anyway why would you shapeshift when you have all those super spells to cast.

In any case this IS my opinion so feel free to pick holes in my argument or add anything to it, for that matter.
Pheeeewww!

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Silver ]

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Silver ]

Kitka · Post by **Kitka** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 5:44 pm

i guess it it a matter of preference for power at which stage in the game. druids have some teriffic skills useful in all kinds of situations, but lack early on.(soa) this can be discouraging for some. personally, i love the turn undead power of a good aligned cleric. it can't be beaten in situations like the sewer in saradush or the temple, when you face the devil shadows. even the end battle is so much easier when you only press that key and watch the gibs fly

you raise very valid points though.

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 5:51 pm

I'm going to disagree on the shapeshifter point Silver, I don't know what I'd ever do without Cernd. A great guy and very useful for all events. G. Werewolf form makes for a very useful spell caster. Throw off a few high level druid spells then shapeshift right into it. Send our buddy cernd running in and watch limbs fly. And if your spell casting line gets attacked, his transformation takes less than the time it takes me to type wow. It's ablsolutly amazing what this guy can do. Also, a straight cleric or druid can't tank half as well as my buddy cernd. The voice of reason in my knightly party

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 6:22 pm

Originally posted by Knight Errant:
I'm going to disagree on the shapeshifter point Silver, I don't know what I'd ever do without Cernd. A great guy and very useful for all events. G. Werewolf form makes for a very useful spell caster. Throw off a few high level druid spells then shapeshift right into it. Send our buddy cernd running in and watch limbs fly. And if your spell casting line gets attacked, his transformation takes less than the time it takes me to type wow. It's ablsolutly amazing what this guy can do. Also, a straight cleric or druid can't tank half as well as my buddy cernd. The voice of reason in my knightly party

The problem with Cernd is that it takes him time to change form between a good fighter and a good caster. While Jaheira can move from one to the other instantly, Cernd has to switch, and that lets spellcasters he may be wishing to attack with Insect Plague (for instance) get off their casts. That need to switch forms can spell the difference between a difficult battle and disaster.

That said, I'm using Cernd for my fifth SOA run-through (and second ToB run-through).

Raphtyr · Post by **Raphtyr** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 8:28 pm

I agree that druids are lots of fun. My char was a totemic druid on the second run though, and those spirit animals come in real handy. On not being able to raise dead, the first high level ability I chose for my druid was Mass Raise Dead. Druids can wear dragonscale armour, but I beleive the white and red scale armours are only second best.
Shurrupaks plate has the same AC as the red and white scale, and it also gives a point of Dex, in reality making it's AC -3. I think it also gives some resistances, but I'm not sure.
Note: In my games I don't usually end up wearing it, because i just like the idea of encountering enemies with more than half my party wearing various dragon scale armours.
White, Shadow, Red and Blue. You'd think they'd get the idea that you're not to be messed with if you're walking around in those, wouldn't you?

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 9:00 pm

Wearing four sets of dragon armour wouldn't make you very popular with our scaly friends would it?
I agree however that the totemic druids are fun, I just recently finsihed semi soloing with one. Pretty neat. Very hard and fun to roleplay. I dual classed him to a fighter eventually (lvl 17 i think) and he did some serious damage. I don't think druids are as good as straight clerics, but the dual really nicely into fighter, and they can still use sharp weapons. Not to shabby if you ask me

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Fri Aug 24, 2001 9:47 pm

Originally posted by Silver:

As for armour, you may think that this is the druids weak point, but (in the politest possible way) you would be wrong! Any druid, except for the shapeshifter, can wear the best armour in the game - white dragon scale.

[ 08-24-2001: Message edited by: Silver ]

Hey hey hey. I think you guys are a little confused.

Something really interesting about druids: The Shapeshifter cannot use any armor, BUT he can use the white dragon scale armor.
The Avenger can only use leather armor, BUT he cannot use the scale armor.
The Totemic can use leather armor, and can use the scale armor too.

So Cernd(Shapeshifter) can use the white scale armor.
This fact make me crazy

. But is true.
At least is true for my cpu, try it to see.

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Sat Aug 25, 2001 2:11 am

Something really interesting about druids: The Shapeshifter cannot use any armor, BUT he can use the white dragon scale armor.

If this is true then that turns around my arguments for shapeshifters. I haven't actually played much with Cernd but his only problem, I think, is his armour, which this certainly changes. Thanks for pointing that out Ivan.

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Sat Aug 25, 2001 2:24 am

i love the turn undead power of a good aligned cleric

Yes, I also missed the turn undead skill clerics have. I found it very useful in SoA against the vampires in Bodhi's lair and the undead critters in the Shade Lord's home. In ToB, however, I didn't find many major undead threats (appart from Liches) and any undead I did come across fell to the sunrays from Dystar and the Helm of Brilliance.

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Sat Aug 25, 2001 4:23 am

Originally posted by Knight Errant:
Send our buddy cernd running in and watch limbs fly. And if your spell casting line gets attacked, his transformation takes less than the time it takes me to type wow.

The transformation itself is very fast indeed. However, any use of an ability (or item) counts as spellcasting for the purposes of determining your "alacrity". You can only cast one spell every 6 seconds, so if Cernd just cast Armor of Faith and you tell him to transform, he'll be standing around doing nothing for 5 seconds, then suddenly transform. That's only "fast" depending on how you look at it.

Originally posted by Knight Errant:
Wearing four sets of dragon armour wouldn't make you very popular with our scaly friends would it?

How many "scaly friends" are there left to meet after you complete your wardrobe?

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Sun Aug 26, 2001 1:37 am

Does anybody know if a Shapeshifter can actually hurt high-level bad guys in his/her transformed state? The manual says nothing about the werewoofs claws being +1 weapons or something like that(like it does for the monk).
So a werewolf, greater or not, might be pretty useless near the end of SoA and in ToB.

Shadowwarrior · Post by **Shadowwarrior** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 2:56 am

Werewolf´s claws counts as +1 and Greater Werewolf´s claws are +3

Coot · Post by **Coot** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 3:00 am

Hmm... so this kit may not be as bad as some people make it out to be...

Shadowwarrior · Post by **Shadowwarrior** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 3:31 am

Yes in fact... the bear and wolfchange sucks so if you have a white dragon or a shadow dragon scale shapeshifters are like normal druid but with werewolf forms! Much better...
And if you don´t use raise dead spells at all which I don´t (thanks to certain items) the druid is a good choise. But have Cernd instead of main character, cause Cernd is a good enough shapeshifter.

Astafas · Post by **Astafas** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 4:12 am

@Ivan:

I know for certain that the Avenger can use both Red Dragon Scale and the Ankheg Plate. He can probably use all other DRagon Scales, too.

Delacroix · Post by **Delacroix** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 11:16 am

Originally posted by Astafas:
@Ivan:

I know for certain that the Avenger can use both Red Dragon Scale and the Ankheg Plate. He can probably use all other DRagon Scales, too.

So I'm confusing the things. When write that I remember the Avenger has something wrong.
I believe that was armor restriction, but now I am remember was the problem that he(avenger ) cannot dual class.
As it is based on memories (because I don't have the game now), it can be wrong too.

Sorry my mistake

Thanks Astafas

Obsidian · Post by **Obsidian** » Mon Aug 27, 2001 11:28 am

Its about time people give Cernd the respect he deserves. Though it's my first time through with the guy in my party, he's become indespensible after He hit Lvl 15 on ToB. So many spells, so little enemies.

Wait, so many spells, so many corpses left in my wake, Have you ever cast storm of Vengeance on a bunch of 8 lvl or lower enemies?? I think Cernd got 21 kills with that spell alone.

battlemage · Post by **battlemage** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 9:51 am

Actually I believe shapeshifter is the best druid kit, because a shapeshifter can tank like a fighter. In Greater Wolfwere form, his AC starts at -10! (dexterity bonus included), with AC bonus from rings, cloaks and helmets you can go to AC -15 easily, so a GW will have lower AC than most fighters. The GW attacks 3 times per round, his paws count as a +2 weapon. If you let the druid duel wield before shapeshift, then the GW will attack 4 times per round! (All fighters cap at 4 attacks per round, unless they whirlwind). The effect from the off hand weapon will carry over, for example if you put club of detonation +5 in off hand, the GW's off-paw will be considered as a +5 weapon, so off-paw's THACO will be lower than main paw, and occasionally you'll detonate a fireball with it. I know this is an exploit of the game engine, but it's very very fun. Also I believe GW has 40% MR and 50% elemental resistances, that's an incredible bonus. THACO can be a problem for GW form, but low AC, high number of attacks, high resistances make up for that. In my experience, the GW form is way better than the greater elemental form, I soloed Sendai with the GW form without casting a single spell, she managed to "harm" me once and drained me to 1 hit point, but other than that, she didn't have a chance at all.

Christian · Post by **Christian** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 12:12 pm

Mmmm...y'all seem to have forgotten to pinpoint just a few extra differences. A druid lacks all the personal boosting spells a cleric has, but also the druid only reaches level 31, a cleric level 40, and thats a substancial THACO and HP difference...
By the way, could someone explain the cleric/druid THACO table, every how many levels it goes down etc...?

Shadowwarrior · Post by **Shadowwarrior** » Tue Aug 28, 2001 1:14 pm

To battlemage, it is not correct with -10 AC for greater werewolf... sounds nice but actually it´s around -3 or something (not sure) but definitely not -10 AC