Thoughts Please

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:38 am

Originally posted by average joe:
[QB]And what happens if we discover the evil alignment of these members in-game? or perhaps not that we discover the alignment, but that we discover them acting in accordance with that alignment? If whatever action they took was severe enough would we try to stop them? turn them in to the local authorities? Deliver our own punishment?
QB]

I think that would be half the fun!

We would have to decide, in game, what to do. Let's not set our rules up so that we avoid alignment questions. Alignment, and how you deal with it, is a big part of the game. And a paladin would only know alignment if he conciously checked everybody in the guild. That would be a right to privacy issue, and I'm not sure a Paladin could, in good concience, invade his associates' privacy in that way. An evil character would have to choose to join the guild knowing he might get expelled if he's found out or killed if he betrays the guild -- those are the chances he takes.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:45 am

Originally posted by Saigo:
I think that would be half the fun! We would have to decide, in game, what to do. Let's not set our rules up so that we avoid alignment questions. Alignment, and how you deal with it, is a big part of the game. And a paladin would only know alignment if he conciously checked everybody in the guild. That would be a right to privacy issue, and I'm not sure a Paladin could, in good concience, invade his associates' privacy in that way. An evil character would have to choose to join the guild knowing he might get expelled if he's found out or killed if he betrays the guild -- those are the chances he takes.

@ Saigo, this is unrealistic as a Paladin's class detail makes it unable to associate with evil characters. It is a roleplaying issue, also the spell Detect Evil will be able to be used, I think it is fairer for all if we do this because althought the roleplaying side may be interesting, the alignment of some people will stop Paladins, and other good characters from joining BotB.

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:51 am

The more I think about it, the more I want to discuss the roleplay issues.

My character, as I've stated, is absolute neutral. He has no moral compass, no concience. He is no more evil than a snake, a spider, or a scorpion. Here's a hypothetical scenario for you:

Shard is in the city with the Banshees he's adventuring with. A child picks his pocket. Shard draws his sword and kills the boy. (I'm not saying it's what he would do, but it is an option.) Some of you may percieve this as an evil act, but Shard is not evil. What do you do?

We may have to face these choices as we go. In BG2, it was possible to attack and kill certain NPCs that didn't deserve it, but suffer no alignment-related penalties. Even a Paladin could get away with it. Should he? Would other players of good-aligned characters let him?

NeKr0mAnCeR · Post by **NeKr0mAnCeR** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 11:35 am

neutral/good olny guild is better IMO (although i wanted to be chaotic evil)

zorac · Post by **zorac** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 11:41 am

Shard is in the city with the Banshees he's adventuring with. A child picks his pocket. Shard draws his sword and kills the boy. (I'm not saying it's what he would do, but it is an option.) Some of you may percieve this as an evil act, but Shard is not evil. What do you do?

What I do? Turn you in to the authorities of course. If you are evil or not is completely irrelevant. It's your actions that count. And how I react in turn depends IN PART of my alignment.

You do have a point though, but maybe a different example would be better.

And remember one thing about those alignments. They are NOT black and white. Two people with same alignment will not necessarily react the same in a given situation.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 12:05 pm

Originally posted by zorac:
What I do? Turn you in to the authorities of course. If you are evil or not is completely irrelevant. It's your actions that count. And how I react in turn depends IN PART of my alignment.

You do have a point though, but maybe a different example would be better.

And remember one thing about those alignments. They are NOT black and white. Two people with same alignment will not necessarily react the same in a given situation.

Zorac, I think you are exactly right. The problem is I would decide whether to turn you into the authorities or killing you outright for killing someone who may have stolen to provide a loaf of bread for his sick sister. IMO a Neutral person would not act that way, neutral people are more methodical and will investigate rather than do things on a whim, except of course Chaotic Neutral, whos whole point is to do things on a whim.

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 12:54 pm

Originally posted by zorac:
If you are evil or not is completely irrelevant. It's your actions that count. And how I react in turn depends IN PART of my alignment.

This is exactly my point. Don't base continued association with the Banshees on alignment, judge members by their actions. My example was meant to point out that, by the "good/neutral only" rule, there's no justification for expelling Shard in that scenario. But an evil character who never diplays overt evil tendencies is not allowed.

On the other hand, Nippy, a Lawful Good Paladin would have to take some action against the pickpocket (at least turning him in) for having broken the law, regardless of his motive.

Guys, I'm not being deliberately argumentative. I'm not looking for a fight. I just know that some players chose to play evil characters because they really wanted to play that type of character. Do we want to tell our friends, the guys from this board who want to play with us, that they have to play a different character? Or that they can't play? I say we tell them, instead, what the in-game requirements are for membership, and let them figure out how to fit in -- either covertly or with a miraculous alignment change.

average joe · Post by **average joe** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 1:21 pm

Originally posted by Saigo:
Guys, I'm not being deliberately argumentative. I'm not looking for a fight.

I, for one, understand you are merely stating an opinion so that we explore all possible options and their outcomes. That is just fine. Continue with your comments.

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:02 pm

This is from the Neverwinter Nights FAQ:

3.09 - Will other players be able to 'know' what class I am right away?

Neverwinter Nights is all about roleplaying - what's on your character sheet is between you and the DM and the look of your character is yours to define. If you are a fighter, you can still dress in peasant clothes if you wish or even a wizard's enchanted garments. The look of your character is not determined by his or her class but by the race, body type, and coloration you choose at character creation, and the clothing and equipment you acquire along the way. This will allow players to play any role they wish, such as a paranoid mage who hides within his clumsy armor or a petty rogue who puts on airs of royal birth.

According to this, we would probably have to detect alignment or detect evil on each PC to know if he is evil or not. If we officially limit members to good/neutral, are we coing to designate an inquisitor to check everybody?

PS, I also saw something on portrait sizes that contradicts earlier information. I'll post it in the "Portraits" topic in the main NWN discussion.

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Saigo ]

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:05 pm

@ Saigo, I appreciate that and I too agree with that how can we go about grouping Paladins in with evil people, it can't be done as far as I know...

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:12 pm

@ Saigo, that may well be an idea (The Inquistitor).

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:45 pm

Originally posted by Nippy:
@ Saigo, I appreciate that and I too agree with that how can we go about grouping Paladins in with evil people, it can't be done as far as I know...

My guess is this (and it's just a guess): Since Paladin cannot knowingly associate with evil characters, not knowing will prevent most any conflict in the game engine.

I think BG2 had something in its code that checked alignment, because every time I tried to bring a new Paladin character into an existing multiplayer game with an evil main character, the game simply crashed. If I imported the paladin into a new game as the main character, it accepted the evil thief as a secondary character. The Paladin would not work under an evil character.

Anyway, we should check with Argyle to see if they know how that's handled. It may be that paladin suffer the consequences of having an evil character in their parties even if they don't know. In that case, there's still a solution: paladin detect evil only on a party they intend to adventure with, for their own protection. That makes sense from a moral point of view.

However, if we find out that paladin do suffer even though they have no idea that the party's thief is evil, that is the only way for me to agree with mandated alignments. Don't get me wrong, I will go along with whatever the group decides. I may not agree with what is decided, but I will support the decision 100%!

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 3:55 pm

I suppose you are right. Not going with it would metagaming for Paladins, we will have to wait and see about how they shall go about it...

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 4:54 pm

Hey, Nippy, I just checked something. I was posting the topic at Argyle, and I wanted to quote the Player's Handbook. So I flipped to the Paladin section and here's what it says:

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters. A paladin will not continue an association with someone who consistantly offends her moral code.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceaces to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all special abilities and spells....

A paladin does not suffer a penalty for unwittingly associating with evil characters, and probably could continue the association if he saw some redeeming quality in the slimeball and was trying to reform him. That would be very much in-character, certainly not "grossly violating the code of conduct."

It may seem like I'm belaboring this point, but I love to play a pure-hearted paldin as much as I love to play a socially unacceptable thief. I want the widest latitude possible to play either character to the hilt, and I would like for everybody to have the same opportunity.

BTW, you have made some very good points, and I have enjoyed the debate. As long as neither one of us gets bent out of shape over it, we can discuss this subject as long as you like.

General · Post by **General** » Mon Nov 12, 2001 9:50 pm

Ok, I've read about the first 3/4 of the posts in this topic and want to add my idea before I continue reading. What if we were officiall a good/neutral guild but people who wanted to be evil could be like a secret branch of the banshee. Sort of like ninja. That's my idea, what do you guys think?

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:41 am

@ General, you may have an idea. The thing is Saigo, I cannot understand how we will get away with it. I detect evil all the time in game because I like to know if I'm gonna get ambushed!

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 6:18 am

Originally posted by Nippy:
@ General, you may have an idea. The thing is Saigo, I cannot understand how we will get away with it. I detect evil all the time in game because I like to know if I'm gonna get ambushed!

That makes plenty of sense. Then, if you discovered an evil character in your party, you would have to decide how to deal with it. If your paladin simply will not tolerate an evil party member, the it also makes sense to check your party before you head out. I would hate to get into an adventure only to find out I had to make a decision to leave the party or send a needed member packing. Keep in mind, though, that you do not have to associate with all fifty or so members of the Blades of the Banshee, and, as I said earlier, it doesn't look like we would have to "get away" with anything. There is no actual penalty involved.

I also like General's thoughts. The Rogues' Wing would be expected to contain some of the less reputable alignments. Perhaps evil characters of other classes should be "attached" to the Rogues, therefore keeping them out of alignment-based conflicts with paladins and lawful good clerics. LG characters let it be known that they are looking for a thief with a noble alignment for their parties, and they don't work with any non-thief attached to the Rogues' Wing.

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:08 am

Why don't we just remain Neutral.

That way all are accepted and we can go about role playing along the lines of Harpers. Meddling in the affairs of all the other guilds regardless of their alignments.

Saigo · Post by **Saigo** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:08 am

Originally posted by Tamerlane:
Why don't we just remain Neutral.

That way all are accepted and we can go about role playing along the lines of Harpers. Meddling in the affairs of all the other guilds regardless of their alignments.

Do you mean that as a guild, we are officialy neutral, but our members are of diverse alignments?

In one regard, I agree, but I believe we should be a force for good as a group, regardless of individual alignments.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Nov 13, 2001 9:32 am

The problem is, if we are a force of good and have a few evil alignments, what happens if someone from our guild assassinates a civilian? How can we explain that?