Debate

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:27 am

No atheist has ever been able to show a logical inconsistency between the propositions "God exists" and "Evil exists." Attempts have been made, but no one has ever been able to show that those two are contradictory. In fact, you can actually show that they are CONSISTENT by adding a third proposition, namely, "God has morally sufficient reasons to permit evil." As long as that third proposition is even possibly true, it shows that God's existence and evil's existence are logically compatible. You seem to assume that if God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting evil, we have to be privy to them. But there's absolutely no reason to think that that is true.

Although I agree with what the other guy said on this- here's another thing- ]

If God permits evil, why worship him?

I do not think that saying 'God has reasons for allowing all the suffering in the world but he won't tell us them' is a good argument. Why do you think that he has these reasons? Again we're getting into self reference.
God has reason for not appearing to be perfectly good but he won't tell us these because he is perfectly good.
Where did you get the notion that god is perfectly good from in the first place if God does not appear to be it?

although I will not claim a contradiction, I think that this does not gel very well with

God is the embodiment of truth

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:33 am

God can do the impossible, but he cannot do the unimaginable. This is an important difference. For example, God cannot create a square-shaped circle, or force an individual to do something voluntarily, or make darkness shine bright like the sun. To do these things would not only be impossible, it would be unimaginable. Try it! Think of a square-shaped circle. I'll bet you a million dollars you can't!

I do not dispute that I cannot imagine a square shaped circle, but I'm afraid I do not quite get your meaning.

I know that it is difficult to get your arguments into the confines of the English language, so I will not argue it if you tell me that what you mean by 'unimagineable' in this context is completely different to what it says in the dictionary. It can be like a symbol 'x' in maths.

So what exactly is the difference between these two abstract qualities which we are calling 'unimagineable' and 'impossible'? I want definitions, not examples.

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:36 am

Goodness and righteousness are the very NATURE of God, and his laws (recognized either through nature, conscience, or Scriptural revelation), flow necessarily out of his moral nature

this is all well and good, but please tell me where evil came from in this case?

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:33 pm

Originally posted by frogus

I do not dispute that I cannot imagine a square shaped circle, but I'm afraid I do not quite get your meaning.

I know that it is difficult to get your arguments into the confines of the English language, so I will not argue it if you tell me that what you mean by 'unimagineable' in this context is completely different to what it says in the dictionary. It can be like a symbol 'x' in maths.

So what exactly is the difference between these two abstract qualities which we are calling 'unimagineable' and 'impossible'? I want definitions, not examples.

Impossible - the dictionary defines this word as "that which cannot be done; something that cannot be; unfeasible; impracticticable."

Unimaginable - "that which cannot be imagined or thought of; undreamed of; inconceivable."

Now the point I'm trying to make is this - God can accomplish the impossible (ie. bring a person back from the dead), but he cannot accomplish the inconceivable (ie. force someone to do something freely).

It is inconceivable/un-imaginable for God to give human beings free wills while simultaneously preventing them from making decisions that could have harmful and evil ramifications.

Human beings must be given the freedom to choose between good and evil, right and wrong, whether to obey the laws of God or ignore and reject it outright. Otherwise, our free wills will be shown to not really be "free" at all.

Sometimes I think we've been given "too much" freedom. We have the freedom to harm and kill each other, to fight global wars, to despoil our planet. We are even free to defy God, to live without restraints as though the other world did not exist. At the least, God could have devised proofs so irrefutable as to silence all skeptics, tilting the odds decisively in favour of his existence. As it is, God seems easy to ignore and deny. But his insistence that human free will be precisely that - free - is absolute. The only way God can abolish all the world's evil and prevent horrible acts of suffering from being wrought is by taking away the very means by which evil and suffering are perpetuated - our individual free wills. I don't think he wants to do that. I do not want him to do that. Even though it might mean a world without evil and suffering, I have no desire to become a robot.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 1:47 pm

Originally posted by frogus

this is all well and good, but please tell me where evil came from in this case?

Evil acts come from evil desires which come from the human heart.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 5:08 pm

Originally posted by EMINEM

Evil acts come from evil desires which come from the human heart.

Who or what created the human heart?

AbysmalNature · Post by **AbysmalNature** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 6:01 pm

The human heart created the human heart.

Evil, Good, no such thing, just momentary concepts which define a purely temporary situation. Did Hitler think he was evil when he killed all those people, not many people really think that they are evil, people in the end believe they are doing good even if they are really not. What is evil, what is good?, those are questions which should be asked, because when one really thinks about it life is a lot more complicated then saying that things are good or evil, bad guys and good guys, God and the Devil, things are never so easy to categorize in real life, people would just prefer that things be in easy to recognize categories. Freedom against tyranny, business against the environment. Free will and Fate, things are a lot more complicated than that. What is good for one person is bad for another, and bad for one person good for another, where is the good and evil in the situation?

Anyway it is more complicated then saying that things are good or evil, anyone ever consider that perhaps the concepts of good and evil are stupid?

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:37 pm

Originally posted by fable

Who or what created the human heart?

Physiological and biological forces created the human heart, obviously, but I'm referring to it figuratively as the seat of human emotions, or the center of one's being.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 8:57 pm

Originally posted by AbysmalNature
The human heart created the human heart.

Evil, Good, no such thing, just momentary concepts which define a purely temporary situation. Did Hitler think he was evil when he killed all those people, not many people really think that they are evil, people in the end believe they are doing good even if they are really not. What is evil, what is good?, those are questions which should be asked, because when one really thinks about it life is a lot more complicated then saying that things are good or evil, bad guys and good guys, God and the Devil, things are never so easy to categorize in real life, people would just prefer that things be in easy to recognize categories. Freedom against tyranny, business against the environment. Free will and Fate, things are a lot more complicated than that. What is good for one person is bad for another, and bad for one person good for another, where is the good and evil in the situation?

Anyway it is more complicated then saying that things are good or evil, anyone ever consider that perhaps the concepts of good and evil are stupid?

The human heart created created the human heart? What's this suppose to mean?

In any case, regarding you latter points, I think things become complicated when you get good and evil confused, or refuse to call what is evil, "evil," and what is good, "good," or calling a lie, an "unconfirmed prevarication," or adultery "having an affair," or stealing, "misappropriation of funds," or spamming a message board, "communicating randomly with terminological inexactitude." Perhaps the concept of good and evil is so simple and obvious, it sounds stupid to the educated. I for one think these concepts rile so many people, especially intellectuals, because of a post-modern worldview in which truth and morality are relative cannot incorporate such absolutist terms like good and evil.

I'd like to discuss the impact (especially in Europe) of Reagan's "Evil empire" and Dubya's "Axis of evil," speech, but I think that would be more appropriate for another thread.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:03 pm

Originally posted by EMINEM

Physiological and biological forces created the human heart, obviously, but I'm referring to it figuratively as the seat of human emotions, or the center of one's being.

So am I.

Who created this center of one's being?

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 9:09 pm

Originally posted by fable

So am I. Who created this center of one's being?

If you mean the soul, I'd say it came from God. There is a Biblical reference concerning this. I think it's found in Ecclesiastes. Hold on. Give me a second...

Yeah, here it is...

"Remember him - before the silver cord is severed,
or the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the well;
and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

Ecc 12:6-8

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 12:41 am

Originally posted by EMINEM

If you mean the soul, I'd say it came from God. There is a Biblical reference concerning this. I think it's found in Ecclesiastes. Hold on. Give me a second...

I was referring to the heart, as you earlier on wrote "Evil acts come from evil desires which come from the human heart." Assuming the heart is the center of one's being (and I know you speak allegorically), and evil desires originate in it, are you suggesting that the soul itself has been corrupted?

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 1:59 am

If you mean the soul, I'd say it came from God. There is a Biblical reference concerning this. I think it's found in Ecclesiastes. Hold on. Give me a second...

So evil comes from the human soul, which god created?
I say a perfectly good being cannot create anything evil.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 3:19 am

The price of freedom to choose.

Originally posted by frogus

So evil comes from the human soul, which god created?
I say a perfectly good being cannot create anything evil.

I think that the "phenomenon" (for lack of a better term) of evil, being made into existence, is a price we have to pay for having the gift to choose what we want to do.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Feb 26, 2002 3:35 am

How did I miss this topic.,

My 2 cents, i agree with the frogman.
Nothing that is the symbol of good - like God can create evil.
However there has to be an opposing force to go to create a balance in the world.
That is where evil comes in.

I don't think humans are either evil or good.
They are neutral and are swayed to and from either side.
I may believe this because religion plays an important part in my life and i believe the concept of the devil and God.

And i agree with mar, if we have free will, we have the choice to be either good or evil.
It is a choice we ultimately make, but there are forces in my opinion that sway you to either side.

Tom · Post by **Tom** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:11 am

Originally posted by EMINEM

No atheist has ever been able to show a logical inconsistency between the propositions "God exists" and "Evil exists." Attempts have been made, but no one has ever been able to show that those two are contradictory. In fact, you can actually show that they are CONSISTENT by adding a third proposition, namely, "God has morally sufficient reasons to permit evil." As long as that third proposition is even possibly true, it shows that God's existence and evil's existence are logically compatible. You seem to assume that if God has morally sufficient reasons for permitting evil, we have to be privy to them. But there's absolutely no reason to think that that is true.

Look again at my argument. It is a valid argument and it clearly shows that all three propositions can’t be true at the same time. Namely; God is good, God is powerful enough to help the suffering, A good agent would help the suffering.

It is clear from what you are saying that you reject the proposition ‘A good agent would help the suffering’.

You do that here.

Originally posted by EMINEM

That said, I think God allows evil and suffering to exist because that is the necessary corollary to human freedom. God cannot guarantee how we are going to use that freedom. And if he intervenes every time to prevent people from choosing evil and causing unjust suffering, then we are reduced to soulless puppets or Data-like androids with advanced C++ programming.

Thus you try to explain why god allows suffering. Basically you are claiming that if god was to step in, in some way, we would lose our freedom.

But why should we lose our freedom? It seems to me that all those people who suffer from horrible diseases, war and hunger could do a lot more things they want i.e. be more free, if they were free from all this suffering. Overall people would be a lot more free if god were to step in and help people.

Further more the bible is full of examples of peoples helping other people. Jesus, for example, did a lot of helping. He didn’t go "sorry kid can’t cure you leprosy because you wouldn’t be free".

Helping people doesn’t make them less free.

Originally posted by EMINEM

If God is going to create a world of significantly free moral agents, he has to allow them to make choices for evil and unjust suffering, and therefore it may not be within God's power (or God’s will), to create a world of free creatures in which evil does not exist. You may be proposing an unimaginable situation (see the square-shaped circle argument above).

I hope that helps.

No not really.

It is really easy for anyone to imagine a better world - food enough for all - no sickness, etc. A square circle is a logical impossibility, a better world is not.

Thus you argument doesn't hold. Your only option is to say that we don't know why god allows suffering even though he is good - its just a mystery.

Ps. sorry if i was a bit sharp yesterday - bad day.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:44 am

Originally posted by fable

I was referring to the heart, as you earlier on wrote "Evil acts come from evil desires which come from the human heart." Assuming the heart is the center of one's being (and I know you speak allegorically), and evil desires originate in it, are you suggesting that the soul itself has been corrupted?

Yes, possibly. The Bible states that the soul was given to human beings by God and from God. Since it came from God, it was originally pure and uncorrupted, but with the sovereignty of individual human free will arose the potential for the soul's corruptibility.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 9:58 am

Originally posted by EMINEM

Yes, possibly. The Bible states that the soul was given to human beings by God and from God. Since it came from God, it was originally pure and uncorrupted, but with the sovereignty of individual human free will arose the potential for the soul's corruptibility.

Where would the corruptibility of the human soul arise from, if not self-regard?

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:05 am

Originally posted by frogus

So evil comes from the human soul, which god created?
I say a perfectly good being cannot create anything evil.

God didn't "create" the human soul. According to Ecclesiates 3:11, "God has placed eternity in the hearts of men," the human soul is eternal, meaning that it has always existed, and will always exist. Perhaps the soul is a "piece" of God, spiritual and eternal like him, but an independent entity nonetheless, capable of shaping its own destiny, of showing obedience or rebellion, of choosing to commit evil instead of good.

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 10:23 am

Originally posted by fable

Where would the corruptibility of the human soul arise from, if not self-regard?

Are you asking what corrupts the human soul? By self-regard, do you mean selfishness, or self-respect?