Kensai thief dual question

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 1:01 pm

How come, my kensai duald to thief can't wear studded leather when he's level9 kensai and level1 thief???

Franke · Post by **Franke** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 2:42 pm

I dunno but I think that the restrictions of Kensai remain at all time, thus you can't wear armour, w8 until you get the "Use any Item" ability, then you'll rock.

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 2:45 pm

But a fighter/thief (or mage) can wear all kinds of armour, and a kensai mage can wear a mage robe,
is this a windows XP bug or something?

Aragorn Returns · Post by **Aragorn Returns** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 5:27 pm

no, it's not a bug, here's the deal:

Kensai cannot wear armor, period.
they can wear robes and cloaks, but no armor. you will never be able to wear studded leather, well, until you get the use any item ability.

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:22 pm

... and you can only wear mage robes if you are at least partially mage (or if you have UAI)

Damone · Post by **Damone** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 10:20 am

why go for the kensai/thief?
i mean isnt a straight fighter/thief better. he can backstab and detect traps in full armour. who needs hide in shadows when you have potions of invisiblity? i mean i have an AC of -8 dual wielding the answerer and avurdangal (sp?) (thanks Pebz

). all i do is drink invisibility, oil of speed, backstab the strongest for about 70+ damage and then just hack the rest with my blades...easy. with the sentinel my AC goes to -13, but have to give up the weapon.

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:21 pm

A level 18 kensai (comparing with a regular fighter) has +6 to hit, +6 damage, -2 AC, some Kais, a high bonus speed factor (almost no difference - can't go below 0), and with UAI, he has almost NO disadvantages over a regular fighter (well, he can't specialize in ranged weapons, but melee weapons are soo much better than ranged in ToB, and you can't backstab with ranged weapons...)

Just the +6 damage means +30 damage in a backstab, and Kai is REALLY good for using with backstab (a katana will do an average of (10-5.5)*5=22.5 HP of extra damage during kai)...

Try reading a scroll of mislead (with UAI) and hitting (if high enough level (20+)) in the back of an enemy with (Greater) Wirlwind... IT'S JUST GREAT!!!!!

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 12:24 pm

Originally posted by King Leoric
A level 18 kensai (comparing with a regular fighter) has +6 to hit, +6 damage, -2 AC, some Kais, a high bonus speed factor (almost no difference - can't go below 0), and with UAI, he has almost NO disadvantages over a regular fighter (well, he can't specialize in ranged weapons, but melee weapons are soo much better than ranged in ToB, and you can't backstab with ranged weapons...)

Just the +6 damage means +30 damage in a backstab, and Kai is REALLY good for using with backstab (a katana will do an average of (10-5.5)*5=22.5 HP of extra damage during kai)...

Try reading a scroll of mislead (with UAI) and hitting (if high enough level (20+)) in the back of an enemy with (Greater) Wirlwind... IT'S JUST GREAT!!!!!

No reason to say anymore
(am not very good in calculating damage)
The only thing i can add, is that you can get grandmaster in weapons!!! So more damage/speed

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 1:14 pm

id go for assassin fighter myself, kai is ok, but not all that great, whereas poison is always great, works even on dragons. dual after use any item and maybe a few spikes for fun, solo or use a small party...

the kensai kit is so killer, a good high negative thaco makes you hit with every strike with a good weapon, like holy avenger!!!

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 6:03 pm

The main problem of assassin fighters (the legit ones, not user's

) is that thieves level up soooo fast, so that i don't know if the thief will be able to get UAI (at level 24), and reach 25th level fighter to recover the thieve skills within the cap (probably an assassin/fighter will reach 24/28 within the cap(?))

Probably it will be possible, but you will have much less special abilities than the kensai/thief (the cap will allow kensai 25/thief 27) (with 6(f) + 4(t) special abilities)

Also, your HP will be crappy for the assassin/fighter

and also, kensai bonuses are great (for 25/27, +8 THAC0 and damage, -2AC)

Also, kai lasts for 10 seconds, so you can mislead yourself, use kai, attack for a full round, use GWW and have kai still on for 4 seconds, what means 6 attacks, with backstab, with katanas, what means (6*5*4.5=)135 points of damage

So, during this round, with a holy avenger, misleaded, with 25 strength, with gauntlets, a kensai would deal an average

(kai on) 6 attacks
back 6att Holy Str dam with kai gauntlet Grand M Kensai
5* 6* (6+ 14+ 10+ 2+ 3+ 8+ )

(kai off) 4 attacks
back 4att Holy Str dam no kai gauntlet Grand M Kensai
5* 4* (6+ 14+ 5.5+ 2+ 3+ 8+ )

=1290+770 = 2060 HP of damage, without external help from bards, clerics, etc...

Stilgar · Post by **Stilgar** » Mon Mar 04, 2002 6:16 pm

Damn, only one thing to say:

AUW!

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 6:11 am

too bab you can't backstab with a two-handed sword, though!

also these calculations for Staff of the Ram would probably yeld around the same figures, although i'm not sure that the formula {bstab*(wpn dmg+str+spec+gauntlets+kensai)} King Leoric used is how the Infinity Engine works. I've run some searches on a couple of boards, and done some testing myself, then dropped it... was satisfied with the min ~90 backstabs from the kensai-thief

so, for what it's worth, does anyone have the exact, tested and verified formula?

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 1:07 pm

Yeah, i forgot about backstabbing with 2H swords, sorry!

But the staff of the Ram should do even more damage

Carsomir

Max damage: 16
Average :11.5

Staff of the ram (without the extra 1d4 piercing, which isn't counted for backstabs)

Max damage:18
Average :15.5

The problem is that there's more than 80% of chance that the enemy will be thrown back (at least once!), and thus, he won't receive the fury of your Greater Wirlwind in his back!!!

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 3:27 pm

So, redoing, for the staff of the ram

Procedure: kensai25/thief27; Reach Str25; cast mislead; cast Kai; wait until end of round; Cast GWW; begin pounding in the back

Using gauntlets of weapon expertise and Staff of the Ram

(kai on) 6 attacks
back--6att---DamRamKai--Str-----gauntlet--GrandM--Kensai
5*-----6*----(18+------------14+---2+---------3+--------8+ )

(kai off) 4 attacks
back--4att---DamRam--Str-----gauntlet--GrandM--Kensai
5*-----4*----(15.5+-----14+----2+---------3+--------8+ )

Damage (in one round) = 1350+850 = 2200 HP!!!

Even without the kai crap, the damage would be of 2125

The only problem is that during this round, there's a chance of 80% that the enemy will be knocked back unconsious, and thus you would lose some damage

Also, there's a chance that the enemy dies during this round, and thus you will also lose some damage

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 5:37 pm

@ king,

are you sure your formula is correct? have you tested it/verified it?

also, i'm kinda rusty on probability calculations, but i'm not sure about 80%, since each hit is calculated a an unrelated event, and that means - 20%, not 20*4.

King Leoric · Post by **King Leoric** » Tue Mar 05, 2002 6:29 pm

I don't have ToB installed right now, therefore, i can't test it

but it should be right... i just am not 100% sure if the str bonus gets multiplied in a backstab

also, for the 80% of knocking back:

10 attacks
85% of chance of NOT knocking back

so .85^10=0.19687

so, you have ~20% of chance of NOT knocking the enemy "at least once" in ten hits

So, during a GWW (10 attacks), there's a chance of 80% that the enemy will be trown backwards "at least once"