Ah, a list of complaints. Time to fire up two browser windows and give my opinion on EACH AND EVERY ONE. Mwahaha.
Complaint List:
1.) Henchmen vs. Party
Agree. Henchmen AI is NOT the best. However, the game had to be balanced for both single player and multiplayer, so multiple henchmen were not an option. Possession of henchmen was something I'd like to see, and I believe that someone has already made a patch to the game that allows you to equip your henchmen. Funny how that whole "they gave us a toolset" thing works.
2.) Dumb Henchman AI, Part 2
Only thing there that happens to me is that occassionally -I- mess up and get in Tomi's way. It's really easy to circumvent if you just think for a few seconds: Tomi has two prerogatives, to unlock a chest and to follow you. If you tell him to unlock, but get in his way, the follow you prerogative takes over. If you tell him to unlock and walk far away, the follow you takes over. If you just tell him to unlock and then step aside, it works fine.
3.) Game Engine
Can't say I've ever had either of these problems. Can always swing when I want to, never had crazy camera spinny thing happen.
4.) Bugs
I must be blessed...
5.) Singleplayer Story
Arguing that giving you the toolset to make your own adventures justifies a bad single player story is crap. Instead, I'd like to argue that the storyline is not that bad at all. I, personally, found the storyline -more- engaging than the BG2 storyline. No "You're the son of bhaal. suck it up, kid!". No annoying-ass dreams where it's a bloody obvious choice between good and evil. That was one thing I wasn't a huge fan of in BG2; the choice was always freaking obvious. They made that a bit better in ToB, giving you more choices, but at least in the original, the dialogue options were pure "a.) do good, b.) do evil". Which was lousy.
As for the story, I'm sure the true DnD geeks were squealing about it. And don't get me wrong, I am a DnD geek. But I, unlike many people, have a "big deal meter", which measures whether something is a big deal or not. The fact that the timeline is off by a few thousand years does not bother me. In the slightest. Like a good improv comedian, I accept and build.
When it comes down to it, what you have in the NWN storyline is a series of adventures with some engaging characters, some good plot twists, and your standard "Save the world!" storyline. Pretty typical DnD stuff. That the storyline is moderately more linear than BG2 is fine by me.
I -will- concur that enemy spellcasting AI bites nuts. So did BG2's, so have a lot of bloody games, but that does not make it excuseable. The problem is the lack of contingencies, which was really the only thing that made enemy spellcasters in BG2 remotely difficult.
The other problem, of course, is these re****ulously good items that you find at early levels. Ring of elemental resistance. Greater Archer's belt. Like, come -on-! 20 damage resistance = invicibility. -15 to all elemental damage = you laugh at mages.
Without these, mages become a lot meaner. I still say the hardest mage you fight in this game is (SPOILER)
That goddamn random sorceror in the middle of the 2nd level of the Prison. He just drops like 4 fireballs on you, there are a zillion guys around so it's hard to get near, and at the time you (probably) don't have any cheesehead items.
And, alas, in sticking with DnD's rules, it brought along the unbalanced stuff, like Harm. Can't defend that.
Now I'm going to move straight to CJ, coz he was nice enough to number his points.
CJ's Points:
1.) Graphics
What the freak do you expect? The REAL requirements (ones actually required, not written on box) for this game are half of Morrowind's. They wanted it to run on more people's machines, not for you to require a Tbird 1.4 and geforce 3 to run it. And it still looks clean, well-put-together and included an arseload of character models.
2.) Day/Night issues
This is really a resting issue. Resting was made this way to work in multiplayer, and it works well. If you don't like being in the dark, wield a torch or cast light; they work wonders.
3.) Story
see above.
4.) XP
See the "big deal meter". Stop agonizing over how to maximize XP and just play like your character would, and you'll do fine. I can't comment on the analyzability of XP, because I don't pay it any attention; my character doesn't even know what the ---- it is.
5.) Traps
What the hell do you expect...? You want less traps? Perhaps you just want loot laid out on the floor in front of you? You can RP a dumbass if you want to, but expect to get hit by traps. If you're -not- RPing a dumbass, when you expect traps you bring a thief along. Or go with care. Please note that -any- trapped box can be destroyed with elemental damage, which is absurdly easy to get on arrows, bolts, shuriken, etcetera? Or, as I said, you could be RPing a moron...in which case you shouldn't mind soaking up gratuitous damage.
I also feel the need to point out that just about every character has a way of dealing with traps:
Rogues, obvious. Fighters/rangers/paladins, shoot it with ranged, or avoid it if it's on the ground. Mages/Sorcerors, knock or find traps. Clerics, find traps or (my favorite), cast a dire badger across the trap and tell him to come to you. Heehee... For monks, there is an abundance of Shuriken, all with elemental damage, perhaps the best trap opener. Combine with terrific saves...
6.) Henchman woes
Can't say I know what kite means, but ya, I've seen my henchmen go charging into other rooms after enemies...that's spirit!
7.) Economy
Dont' suppose you want to say how it doesn't make sense... =/
8.) Rediculously overpowered items.
Yep. No argument. Not that BG2 didn't have both, available even earlier than NWN. Daystar, anybody? And there ain't no holy avenger in NWN, thank goodness. Holy cheese, batman. But hey, at least it's not morrowind, where you can score the best armor in the game before hitting level 2.
9.) No XP for non-fighters.
This sucks, although it is partially balanced out by the fact that thieves/wizards get more XP per kill, and the fact that rogues become damage-dealing powerhouses.
10.) Soak
I kind of like it, so long as it's LIMITED. Greater archer's belts, et alii, bite. So does the ring of elemental resistance. Chests, though, I can understand. You simply can't bash in a metal chest with a dagger, no matter how hard you try.
11.) Dialogue system
Insight and Persuade are terrific, and the dialogue system gives you an arseload more options than BG2 ("r u gud? r u evil?") did. You're confusing lack of personality for character density. The fact is, there are more NPCs per square foot in NWN than there were in BG2, so clearly all of them can't have in depth backstories.
12.) Single Player Lag
The heck? Do you have a system that orangutans built by throwing their feces at an ant mount until it resembled a computer case? I don't have a top of the line computer, and I don't lag at all, with all options turned on. Another computer I have it installed on is even worse, barely above the mininimum specs, and it runs it fine, albeit without all the graphics options turned on.
13.) Toolkit
Yes, you need say more. My 12 year old sister can work it fine. It's about as difficult as Clarisworks, and significantly more self-explanatory. There's even a pretty tutorial. There are legitimate complaints about this game, but the toolkit is not one of them. Perhaps you were expecting a direct hookup to your brain that allows you to just think of a scenario and let it happen, but the rest of us are bloody satisfied with a powerful, flexible, easy to use toolkit.
14.) Viewing Angle.
Personal preference, so this is a legitimate gripe from your point of view, and I can't argue with it.
15.) Inventory Sytem.
Yep. Though I bet you'd be complaining if it did a BG2 style "a sling bullet takes up as much space as a a suit of full plate" inventory. I'd kill for a "pack my bags tight" button.
16.) Hunt the loot
Yep, this is kind of wierd. Would much prefer that these chests weren't openable. However, it's preferable to the "I know where stuff is, so I go get it at level 3" system that happened in the BG series, Morrowind, etcetera, without a random spawning system.
17.) Aribeth's Plotline.
No ****. That genuinely pisses me off. If there is a good argument for the storyline being shallow, this is it. What gives?!
18.) "Random" loot keyed to weapon focus
Erm, are you sure it's keyed to your weapon focus? The way I guessed it worked was that it was related to what you used most. My druid, despite never taking weapon focus, found lots of scimitars. Same with my ranger and longsword/shortswords... If I had to make a guess, it would be that whenever you hit something it records it, and gives you a better chance of getting that weapon as magical.
19.) Performance stutters
=/ I must just have blessed system.
20.) The Graphics.
Yes, let's make a morrowind, where nobody can freaking run the thing, it's buggy as fook, and my leaping lizard gets his head stuck in the ceiling every time he jumps. =(((
Moving on to Nygma!
I'll skip ones already covered. Good complaints include all henchman ones, here...Double Weapon/dual wield is not an enigma. It SHOULD require the feats, but it DOESNT, which may or may not be fixed. That's how it is. As for wizard carrying capacity...there are only six gazillion magic bags, all with weight reduction. It's not like my gnome wants to carry around 6 greatswords anyways...
At this point, I realize that if I can just use 201 more characters, I reach the maximum message length. This seems to be a goal worth attaining, so I'll talk for a bit more.
Ah. I'm done.
-Cross
OK, what do you hate about NWN? (very long)
Okay, Cross -- my turn again 
1.) Graphics... What the freak do you expect?
I expect them to look at least as good as games several years older, like BG2, Planescape, IWD or even BG1.
.XP ...See the "big deal meter". Stop agonizing over how to maximize XP
I'm not worried about maximizing it. I'm upset that it's not explained or even readily comprehensible (as evidenced that NO ONE has it figured out yet).
Economy....Dont' suppose you want to say how it doesn't make sense
Sure. God like items cost beans in comparison to much less powerful items, which cost significantly more. There's little rhyme or reason to how things are valued. The best armor in the game costs less to make then a suit of hide armor +2, for example.
Insight and Persuade are terrific, and the dialogue system gives you an arseload more options than BG2 ("r u gud? r u evil?") did. You're confusing lack of personality for character density. The fact is, there are more NPCs per square foot in NWN than there were in BG2, so clearly all of them can't have in depth backstories.
Insight is good. Persuade comes out to mean very, very little. Spend 20 skill points over the course of a characters career on it, and in the end in NWN what do you have? A few thousand more gold, a few ingredients you also found elsewhere, and not much else. As to numbers of NPCs...you're confusing quantity for quality. There were lots and lots of people in Ultima II, too -- most of them didn't have anything much to say, either
Also, I didn't say BG2 gave you choices -- I said it had personality, which NWN doesn't. Planescape had choices, NWN doesn't. IWD managed better dialogue, and that was -intended- to be a hack-n-slash dungeon romp.
Single player lag....The heck? Do you have a system that orangutans built by throwing their feces at an ant mount until it resembled a computer case?
No. I have a system that ran Morrowind damn well. Nevertheless, in NWN in large fights (mostly) there is definitely lag. Monsters and my character get repositioned, retroactively, in response to commands I gave a second or two before. PC and NPC will actually be -moved-, visibly, back to where they would have been had the commands gone through when initially entered.
Toolkit...Yes, you need say more. My 12 year old sister can work it fine. It's about as difficult as Clarisworks, and significantly more self-explanatory. There's even a pretty tutorial. There are legitimate complaints about this game, but the toolkit is not one of them. Perhaps you were expecting a direct hookup to your brain that allows you to just think of a scenario and let it happen, but the rest of us are bloody satisfied with a powerful, flexible, easy to use toolkit.
That. Doesn't. Work.
Have you been following the various corruption stories out there? The dialogue problems? Any of the issues that have serious mod makers upset? If not, then perhaps you should check out some of the threads they have on various boards. 'Fraid you'll have to look for them, though... last I checked they didn't offer a direct hookup to your brain.
"Random" loot keyed to weapon focus ....Erm, are you sure it's keyed to your weapon focus?
100% positive. There may be some association by class as well, but many loot locations are keyed to weapon focus. The chest in the first room you start in. The chest near the brain devourer. The chest right before Maugrimm. Many, many others in between. It's easily testable if you don't believe me. The game even looks at whatever weapon focus you most -recently- tooked if you have more then one, and gives you from the last selected.
Yes, let's make a morrowind, where nobody can freaking run the thing, it's buggy as fook, and my leaping lizard gets his head stuck in the ceiling every time he jumps. =(((
I wasn't expecting Morrowing. I -was- expecting something that looked at least as good as the games the same company put out YEARS ago.
1.) Graphics... What the freak do you expect?
I expect them to look at least as good as games several years older, like BG2, Planescape, IWD or even BG1.
.XP ...See the "big deal meter". Stop agonizing over how to maximize XP
I'm not worried about maximizing it. I'm upset that it's not explained or even readily comprehensible (as evidenced that NO ONE has it figured out yet).
Economy....Dont' suppose you want to say how it doesn't make sense
Sure. God like items cost beans in comparison to much less powerful items, which cost significantly more. There's little rhyme or reason to how things are valued. The best armor in the game costs less to make then a suit of hide armor +2, for example.
Insight and Persuade are terrific, and the dialogue system gives you an arseload more options than BG2 ("r u gud? r u evil?") did. You're confusing lack of personality for character density. The fact is, there are more NPCs per square foot in NWN than there were in BG2, so clearly all of them can't have in depth backstories.
Insight is good. Persuade comes out to mean very, very little. Spend 20 skill points over the course of a characters career on it, and in the end in NWN what do you have? A few thousand more gold, a few ingredients you also found elsewhere, and not much else. As to numbers of NPCs...you're confusing quantity for quality. There were lots and lots of people in Ultima II, too -- most of them didn't have anything much to say, either
Also, I didn't say BG2 gave you choices -- I said it had personality, which NWN doesn't. Planescape had choices, NWN doesn't. IWD managed better dialogue, and that was -intended- to be a hack-n-slash dungeon romp.
Single player lag....The heck? Do you have a system that orangutans built by throwing their feces at an ant mount until it resembled a computer case?
No. I have a system that ran Morrowind damn well. Nevertheless, in NWN in large fights (mostly) there is definitely lag. Monsters and my character get repositioned, retroactively, in response to commands I gave a second or two before. PC and NPC will actually be -moved-, visibly, back to where they would have been had the commands gone through when initially entered.
Toolkit...Yes, you need say more. My 12 year old sister can work it fine. It's about as difficult as Clarisworks, and significantly more self-explanatory. There's even a pretty tutorial. There are legitimate complaints about this game, but the toolkit is not one of them. Perhaps you were expecting a direct hookup to your brain that allows you to just think of a scenario and let it happen, but the rest of us are bloody satisfied with a powerful, flexible, easy to use toolkit.
That. Doesn't. Work.
Have you been following the various corruption stories out there? The dialogue problems? Any of the issues that have serious mod makers upset? If not, then perhaps you should check out some of the threads they have on various boards. 'Fraid you'll have to look for them, though... last I checked they didn't offer a direct hookup to your brain.
"Random" loot keyed to weapon focus ....Erm, are you sure it's keyed to your weapon focus?
100% positive. There may be some association by class as well, but many loot locations are keyed to weapon focus. The chest in the first room you start in. The chest near the brain devourer. The chest right before Maugrimm. Many, many others in between. It's easily testable if you don't believe me. The game even looks at whatever weapon focus you most -recently- tooked if you have more then one, and gives you from the last selected.
Yes, let's make a morrowind, where nobody can freaking run the thing, it's buggy as fook, and my leaping lizard gets his head stuck in the ceiling every time he jumps. =(((
I wasn't expecting Morrowing. I -was- expecting something that looked at least as good as the games the same company put out YEARS ago.
I have a question Crosswind. What problems have people been having with the timeline? I don't consider myself a Realms guru but I keep up on just about everything and I haven't noticed a problem. The current year in the Realms is 1372 and the game takes place in 1373, whats the problem? They set it a year ahead so they weren't rewriting past history and the game designers for tabletop D&D can choose whether or not to write the game storyline into the real game or not, most likely not as evidenced by the fact that the Baldur's Gate storyline never entered Realms history either. I was just curious as to what people have had problems with.
It is best to be thought a fool and stay silent, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
*Traps*
I believe that there's places where traps belong, and places where they don't. Traps belong in an ancient tomb. They were put there to keep out graverobbers. Traps don't belong in the middle of a forest or a hill giant lair. Hell, CHESTS don't belong in the middle of a forest or a hill giant lair. But I digress. Traps are usually put there for a *reason*, not just to annoy passing adventurers. Why you'd want to trap a chest in the middle of a forest is beyond me. And hill giants don't have the brain capacity to rig a decent trap. And that's my 2 cents.
*EXP*
I like to know how the game mechanics work. Most of us do. The experience system in NWN is extremely quirky, which annoys me. I shouldn't lose EXP just because I summon a familiar, and neither should I gain EXP because I hire a henchman.
*Story*
The story is all right, but it just doesn't meet the standards set by BG2. There's just too many inconsistancies, until at times my ability to suspend disbelief is worn very thin. Bioware bit off more than it could chew with the sweeping "save the world" theme. Sure, that works for the Final Fantasies, where the gaming world is recreated with every game. But NWN is based in the Forgotten Realms, and that imposes limits. With many heroes far greater than your PC already out there, having you be the only one that can possibly save all of Faerun just doesn't cut it. In BG2, the quest was predominantly personal. Sure, you erase a vampire guild, and sure, you save an elven city. Such things were in the character's scope, and were clandestine enough and of little enough importance to not attract famous heroes from all over the Realms. NWN, on the other hand, is a whole different story.
*Character Depth*
It's just not there. It's hard to explain. I really loved the party NPC's in BG2. Their dialogue was wonderful, both in and out of conversation. NWN henchman just aren't the same. Each chapter they tell you a story, you fetch an item, and that's about it. Maybe it goes back to the henchman vs. party argument. In BG2, you had 5 well-developed NPC's with you at any given time. In NWN, you have 1 NPC (well-developed or not) with you at any time. Since I tend to stick with a single NPC (NWN) or band of NPC's (BG2) through the entire game, having just 1 NPC means only 1/5 the character personality goodness of BG2.
*Inventory*
Now that I have 7 bags of holding and about 15 magic bags, it's not quite so bad. But I still hate the whole tab system. It makes it so annoying to transfer items between the various screens. On the plus side, having ammo come in bundles of 99 is very nice. And since money is so abundant, I find myself buying magical arrows for the first time ever in a D&D game.
I believe that there's places where traps belong, and places where they don't. Traps belong in an ancient tomb. They were put there to keep out graverobbers. Traps don't belong in the middle of a forest or a hill giant lair. Hell, CHESTS don't belong in the middle of a forest or a hill giant lair. But I digress. Traps are usually put there for a *reason*, not just to annoy passing adventurers. Why you'd want to trap a chest in the middle of a forest is beyond me. And hill giants don't have the brain capacity to rig a decent trap. And that's my 2 cents.
*EXP*
I like to know how the game mechanics work. Most of us do. The experience system in NWN is extremely quirky, which annoys me. I shouldn't lose EXP just because I summon a familiar, and neither should I gain EXP because I hire a henchman.
*Story*
The story is all right, but it just doesn't meet the standards set by BG2. There's just too many inconsistancies, until at times my ability to suspend disbelief is worn very thin. Bioware bit off more than it could chew with the sweeping "save the world" theme. Sure, that works for the Final Fantasies, where the gaming world is recreated with every game. But NWN is based in the Forgotten Realms, and that imposes limits. With many heroes far greater than your PC already out there, having you be the only one that can possibly save all of Faerun just doesn't cut it. In BG2, the quest was predominantly personal. Sure, you erase a vampire guild, and sure, you save an elven city. Such things were in the character's scope, and were clandestine enough and of little enough importance to not attract famous heroes from all over the Realms. NWN, on the other hand, is a whole different story.
*Character Depth*
It's just not there. It's hard to explain. I really loved the party NPC's in BG2. Their dialogue was wonderful, both in and out of conversation. NWN henchman just aren't the same. Each chapter they tell you a story, you fetch an item, and that's about it. Maybe it goes back to the henchman vs. party argument. In BG2, you had 5 well-developed NPC's with you at any given time. In NWN, you have 1 NPC (well-developed or not) with you at any time. Since I tend to stick with a single NPC (NWN) or band of NPC's (BG2) through the entire game, having just 1 NPC means only 1/5 the character personality goodness of BG2.
*Inventory*
Now that I have 7 bags of holding and about 15 magic bags, it's not quite so bad. But I still hate the whole tab system. It makes it so annoying to transfer items between the various screens. On the plus side, having ammo come in bundles of 99 is very nice. And since money is so abundant, I find myself buying magical arrows for the first time ever in a D&D game.
Lost Souls: A bereft lover. A masterless familiar. Friends gone their separate ways. Time marches on, and destiny heralds the meeting of comrades old and new. Can they find what they're seeking? Or will the search bring them only more pain?
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HighLordDave
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I actually like the NWN inventory system. On top of being able to carry more stuff than you could in the Infinity Engine games, I like that I can designate one tab for weapons, one for potions, one for scrolls, one for ammo, etc.Originally posted by Magus
*Inventory*
Now that I have 7 bags of holding and about 15 magic bags, it's not quite so bad. But I still hate the whole tab system. It makes it so annoying to transfer items between the various screens. On the plus side, having ammo come in bundles of 99 is very nice. And since money is so abundant, I find myself buying magical arrows for the first time ever in a D&D game.
One thing that does annoy me is that you can't turn an item on it's side to fit it into an inventory slot. For instance, a potion takes up two inventory boxes, one on top of the other. If you have to open boxes in a bag of holding, but for some reason the boxes are side by side, you still can't get the potion in the bag.
I also have a question as to why most items of like type will stack together, but necklaces won't. I find this to be incredible curious.
Another curiosity is why a longsword takes up four slots while a katana takes six. Shouldn't the two be about the same size?
Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
*looks at his post above*
I was an antagonistic bastard, wasn't I. Hope I didn't offend anybody. The simple fact with lag-related issues is that while Morrowind -owned- my system, NWN runs as smoothly as can be. And I'm a very big fan of the graphics, which look clean.
I emphasize clean, as that is exactly what I look for in graphics. I do not expect uber-realism, but I -do- expect graphics that don't look too damn polygonal (i.e. my character is clearly made up of squares and triangles).
Correct me if I'm wrong, as well, but to "make" the best armor in the game you have to find ingredients, and find where to make them. And at that point, money doesn't really matter anyhow...
As for dialogue, I would argue that there are very few non-rogue skills that are as useful as persuade. I take it on every character that I can. I rarely try to argue up prices, but I -do- like to be able to talk my way out of situations, and get into places that I otherwise would not have gotten into. Persuade ranks behind Heal and Concentration, and slightly ahead of Discipline in my "Most useful skills" list.
And I don't believe I'm confusing quality for quantity. I'm saying that there are more NPCs, but there are still the same number of NPCs with deep characters as there were in BG2. There are simply more not-deep characters.
As for the Toolkit, I've used it extensively, and am almost finished with 2 modules (1 working on with a friend, 1 solo). Even when there -was- module corruption, there was a simple, foolproof, takes-30-seconds method to fix it (that was posted as a sticky at the top of the NWN builder's board).
As for weapon focus...goshdurnit. I was so sure...I'm just remembering now that most of the ones that I remember were fighters, who obviously had weapon focus in the weapon they were wielding...hrm.
For Mathurin:
(SPOILER)
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This game has the creator race set a few thousand years previously. If I read the complaints properly, the actual timeline was tens of thousands of years previously.
As for the story bit, Magus has many good points.
Why you, instead of Drizzt & the companions of the hall, or some equally reputable adventuring group (of which there are dozens)?
Well, first off, it's standard DnD. Second off, you're not technically saving the world. At first, you're stopping a plague (well within scope). Second, you're thwarting some nut job prophet, and helping to stop a war. Well within your scope. Note that at this point, you're level 13 or 14...a level or two short of Drizzt and a lot of other adventurers. By the time you actually get around to the creator race-stopping part, you're as eligible as any other hero in the realms, and more accessible than most, as you're already up there in neverwinter. I just fail to see at what point this stretches the bounds of belief.
-Cross
I was an antagonistic bastard, wasn't I. Hope I didn't offend anybody. The simple fact with lag-related issues is that while Morrowind -owned- my system, NWN runs as smoothly as can be. And I'm a very big fan of the graphics, which look clean.
I emphasize clean, as that is exactly what I look for in graphics. I do not expect uber-realism, but I -do- expect graphics that don't look too damn polygonal (i.e. my character is clearly made up of squares and triangles).
Correct me if I'm wrong, as well, but to "make" the best armor in the game you have to find ingredients, and find where to make them. And at that point, money doesn't really matter anyhow...
As for dialogue, I would argue that there are very few non-rogue skills that are as useful as persuade. I take it on every character that I can. I rarely try to argue up prices, but I -do- like to be able to talk my way out of situations, and get into places that I otherwise would not have gotten into. Persuade ranks behind Heal and Concentration, and slightly ahead of Discipline in my "Most useful skills" list.
And I don't believe I'm confusing quality for quantity. I'm saying that there are more NPCs, but there are still the same number of NPCs with deep characters as there were in BG2. There are simply more not-deep characters.
As for the Toolkit, I've used it extensively, and am almost finished with 2 modules (1 working on with a friend, 1 solo). Even when there -was- module corruption, there was a simple, foolproof, takes-30-seconds method to fix it (that was posted as a sticky at the top of the NWN builder's board).
As for weapon focus...goshdurnit. I was so sure...I'm just remembering now that most of the ones that I remember were fighters, who obviously had weapon focus in the weapon they were wielding...hrm.
For Mathurin:
(SPOILER)
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.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
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This game has the creator race set a few thousand years previously. If I read the complaints properly, the actual timeline was tens of thousands of years previously.
As for the story bit, Magus has many good points.
Why you, instead of Drizzt & the companions of the hall, or some equally reputable adventuring group (of which there are dozens)?
Well, first off, it's standard DnD. Second off, you're not technically saving the world. At first, you're stopping a plague (well within scope). Second, you're thwarting some nut job prophet, and helping to stop a war. Well within your scope. Note that at this point, you're level 13 or 14...a level or two short of Drizzt and a lot of other adventurers. By the time you actually get around to the creator race-stopping part, you're as eligible as any other hero in the realms, and more accessible than most, as you're already up there in neverwinter. I just fail to see at what point this stretches the bounds of belief.
-Cross
My beef is that you, as the PC, are the ONLY ONE who is actively working against the Cult (besides that Word Slave). If you fail, Faerun is screwed. Surely the whole incident would have attracted others, yet there you are, alone in your task.
This theme pervades the entire game, not just the end. As a recruit fresh out of the academy, YOU are the ONLY ONE who can find the Waterdhavian creatures. As a veteran after the Plague in Neverwinter, YOU are the ONLY ONE who can locate the base of the Cult. As an emerging hero, YOU are the ONLY ONE who can retrieve the Words of Power. These people are idiots, to trust, no to expect, a single person to save the day on every single occasion...
Bottonline: *Everyone is helpless but me*
This theme pervades the entire game, not just the end. As a recruit fresh out of the academy, YOU are the ONLY ONE who can find the Waterdhavian creatures. As a veteran after the Plague in Neverwinter, YOU are the ONLY ONE who can locate the base of the Cult. As an emerging hero, YOU are the ONLY ONE who can retrieve the Words of Power. These people are idiots, to trust, no to expect, a single person to save the day on every single occasion...
Bottonline: *Everyone is helpless but me*
Lost Souls: A bereft lover. A masterless familiar. Friends gone their separate ways. Time marches on, and destiny heralds the meeting of comrades old and new. Can they find what they're seeking? Or will the search bring them only more pain?
You could do the same thing in BG2. For me, one character carried gems, one carried heavy armor and weapons, one carried scrolls, one carried potions...Originally posted by HighLordDave
I actually like the NWN inventory system. On top of being able to carry more stuff than you could in the Infinity Engine games, I like that I can designate one tab for weapons, one for potions, one for scrolls, one for ammo, etc.
But in BG2, it wasn't as annoying to go from one inventory screen to the next. You got to click on a nice big portrait. Plus each screen could hold more items (especially weapons and armor). In NWN, you have this little tab that's easy to miss. And since it's a generic tab, and not a portrait, it's easy to click the wrong one and cause yourself even more irritation. Perhaps most irritating of all is that many items won't go into a magic bag just by dragging the item over it. Often a little shadow of it remains in your inventory, and when you open the bag it's not even in there. Instead, you have open the bag and drag the item to the specific spot in the bag that you want it in. Very annoying.
Lost Souls: A bereft lover. A masterless familiar. Friends gone their separate ways. Time marches on, and destiny heralds the meeting of comrades old and new. Can they find what they're seeking? Or will the search bring them only more pain?
OK, Crosswind, my turn again.
You lost me here. As I understand it, multiplayer parties can be larger than the maximum four allowed in singleplayer. Not only can they be larger, but every party member has human intelligence behind it. So why would the ability to have a full NPC party in singleplayer be unbalanced? They managed it in BGII and BG. Not only that, but in BGII you might meet a party of shadow fiends or vampires, depending on your level; not perfect balancing adjustment, but very good I thought. Maybe I misunderstood you here, but I don't see how balancing issues prevent a full NPC party.
Toolset's nice, but IMO it should be for game addons, enhancements, etc., not to fix Bioware's singleplayer. I grant you that in and of itself the henchman vs. party thing is my personal opinion and not a problem per se, but there are a lot of problems that spring from it as have been mentioned.
Unfortunately, while trying to get out of his way (necessary because of poor pathfinding that doesn't let a model right next to something solid walk around it without being carefully guided) Tomi as you mentioned will carry out his second perogative and follow you. Unless you very carefully sidestep just enough to give him room, in which case he still every 2 out of 3 times just stood there looking at you, meaning you had to click again, which moved you in front of the chest, which put you in Tomi's way, which... got you another "Oh, I can pick that open easy" and another blank stare. Bottom line, it took you many times longer to ransack a room than it did in BGII - not good.
I agree in part. As I mentioned in the short-lived "What do you LOVE about NWN" thread p), I loved the Aribeth storyline, it was just too bad we never heard how it ended. (Still think it lacked quite a bit from BGI & II, though.)
What, you never noticed that if you click on a hostile character that's running towards you, your PC and the monster will run right by each other for a few yards, then suddenly leap back to start hacking at each other? I found this pretty much just an aesthetic problem, but it's the most noticeable case of singleplayer lag I encountered.
Was that flypaper environment annoying or what? My 56th level Persuader, Grandmaster of the Morag Tong, Master Wizard of the Mages Guild, Theurgist of the Imperial Cult, Toad of the Thieves Guild, etc., was totally paranoid about banners ever since that unfortunate incident in the Ashlander Camp where he actually got completely stuck in a freaking banner flapping in the wind!, necessitating either a Recall to Vivec or a reload in Tel Aruhn. I spent 20 minutes trekking out there, killed that Golden Saint, and that stupid banner...! Whoops, wrong forum. Sorry, folks!
At the end of the game, yes. At the beginning, however, even if you shell out your at-that-point-in-time precious gold for a 60% reduction bag, you're still likely to go over your max carry capacity everytime you pick up a piece of magical armor that you just can't bear to leave behind. I don't know, even with 14 str as a monk and now a cleric, I was recalling into town more times than I liked (particularly on those times when I had Daelan with his 20 strength or whatever), then either trudging back or paying another 50 gold.
True, it's just a misprint in the manual or a bug in the game that double weapons apparently get an extra attack, but no penalties.
Nope. Not at all.
However, the game had to be balanced for both single player and multiplayer, so multiple henchmen were not an option
You lost me here. As I understand it, multiplayer parties can be larger than the maximum four allowed in singleplayer. Not only can they be larger, but every party member has human intelligence behind it. So why would the ability to have a full NPC party in singleplayer be unbalanced? They managed it in BGII and BG. Not only that, but in BGII you might meet a party of shadow fiends or vampires, depending on your level; not perfect balancing adjustment, but very good I thought. Maybe I misunderstood you here, but I don't see how balancing issues prevent a full NPC party.
Funny how that whole "they gave us a toolset" thing works.
Toolset's nice, but IMO it should be for game addons, enhancements, etc., not to fix Bioware's singleplayer. I grant you that in and of itself the henchman vs. party thing is my personal opinion and not a problem per se, but there are a lot of problems that spring from it as have been mentioned.
...get in Tomi's way. ...Tomi has two prerogatives, to unlock a chest and to follow you
Unfortunately, while trying to get out of his way (necessary because of poor pathfinding that doesn't let a model right next to something solid walk around it without being carefully guided) Tomi as you mentioned will carry out his second perogative and follow you. Unless you very carefully sidestep just enough to give him room, in which case he still every 2 out of 3 times just stood there looking at you, meaning you had to click again, which moved you in front of the chest, which put you in Tomi's way, which... got you another "Oh, I can pick that open easy" and another blank stare. Bottom line, it took you many times longer to ransack a room than it did in BGII - not good.
I'd like to argue that the storyline is not that bad at all
I agree in part. As I mentioned in the short-lived "What do you LOVE about NWN" thread
p), I loved the Aribeth storyline, it was just too bad we never heard how it ended. (Still think it lacked quite a bit from BGI & II, though.)I don't lag at all,
What, you never noticed that if you click on a hostile character that's running towards you, your PC and the monster will run right by each other for a few yards, then suddenly leap back to start hacking at each other? I found this pretty much just an aesthetic problem, but it's the most noticeable case of singleplayer lag I encountered.
my leaping lizard gets his head stuck in the ceiling every time he jumps
Was that flypaper environment annoying or what? My 56th level Persuader, Grandmaster of the Morag Tong, Master Wizard of the Mages Guild, Theurgist of the Imperial Cult, Toad of the Thieves Guild, etc., was totally paranoid about banners ever since that unfortunate incident in the Ashlander Camp where he actually got completely stuck in a freaking banner flapping in the wind!, necessitating either a Recall to Vivec or a reload in Tel Aruhn. I spent 20 minutes trekking out there, killed that Golden Saint, and that stupid banner...! Whoops, wrong forum. Sorry, folks!
there are only six gazillion magic bags, all with weight reduction
At the end of the game, yes. At the beginning, however, even if you shell out your at-that-point-in-time precious gold for a 60% reduction bag, you're still likely to go over your max carry capacity everytime you pick up a piece of magical armor that you just can't bear to leave behind. I don't know, even with 14 str as a monk and now a cleric, I was recalling into town more times than I liked (particularly on those times when I had Daelan with his 20 strength or whatever), then either trudging back or paying another 50 gold.
Double Weapon/dual wield is not an enigma
True, it's just a misprint in the manual or a bug in the game that double weapons apparently get an extra attack, but no penalties.
Hope I didn't offend anybody.
Nope. Not at all.
"Terrible hamster justice shall be wreaked upon you! GO FOR THE EYES, BOO, GO...!"
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HighLordDave
- Posts: 4062
- Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 11:00 pm
- Location: Between Middle-Earth and the Galaxy Far, Far Away
- Contact:
Who was it that wanted an "Organise Inventory" button (similar to what they have in Arcanum)? That would be a good idea for a future release.Originally posted by Magus
Instead, you have open the bag and drag the item to the specific spot in the bag that you want it in. Very annoying.
Jesus saves! And takes half damage!
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
If brute force doesn't work, you're not using enough.
I haven't played much of the game(only the beginning cause my comp can't run it and I let a friend borrow it till i get a new comp built), but of the things I have experienced I agree with most of your rants. The game is way too easy, the whole henchman nonsense was a bad idea, the dialog options weren't too hot, and the graphics could've been so much better. And it's definately more of an action game then an RPG.
Here's what I think they should've done, and I hope someone does actually do this. They should've just taken the Darkstone engine from Delphine and set it to D&D rules(doesn't matter which), placed the game somewhere in the realms, and given it a decent save the world storyline with enough twists to keep it interesting. This would give you a far better game, and IIRC Darkstone also had a dungeon maker of sorts although I never used it. Hmm maybe I'll take a look at that and see what I can do.
Here's what I think they should've done, and I hope someone does actually do this. They should've just taken the Darkstone engine from Delphine and set it to D&D rules(doesn't matter which), placed the game somewhere in the realms, and given it a decent save the world storyline with enough twists to keep it interesting. This would give you a far better game, and IIRC Darkstone also had a dungeon maker of sorts although I never used it. Hmm maybe I'll take a look at that and see what I can do.
"I'll take the stupid one who decided to threaten us, instead of shoot us when he had the chance" - Bao-Dur
Magus states it right. I have to agree with each one of his points.
Mathurin:
I don't have problems with the timeline. Heck I will excuse all of the story problems I mentioned. My problem is my role in the game, that of an epic medieval rambo. Maybe you have played a FR/DnD session where a single person/group is everything, but I haven't. DM's typically keep a balance on each scale as best they can; wealth, experience, knowledge, and fame. Epic characters are used to keep the story going, to fit things into the right timeline, and to ensure that PC's in the realms understand they are part of a real world with personages more powerful than they. It gives a form of competition or allure to the realms that other settings (the Oerthian DnD for example) do not have, as you have a milestone to compare the fledging characters against.
To others:
Obviously each game is different from DM to DM. But one fact remains that is what I feel key to the Forgotten Realms universe. If you peruse the first few pages you should get that feeling. It is not standard Oerthian DnD. In standard Oerth DnD (Greyhawk, etc) your group players ARE the heroes. Yes in scope and scale they are the epic cast of the novel being set forth by the DM. But in Forgotten Realms (and actualy one of the greater complaints, and also explained in the FRCS) players are not necesarily in the same role as those of standard DnD. Not saying that PC's are trash, but that FR is repleat with many characters expressed in the novels and lore of the realms. PC's play a big role in the area they adventure in, however they are not out to save Toril from world domination. Then again this is opinionated and biased as to my view and experience of the FRCS.
In regards to some other coments made about our characters, I would have to disagree. Being 20th level, and doing the rather sublime quests that we do throughout this campaign, does not compare to the epic tales of Drizzt, or Elminster. Come on, you got to give a level 39 character much more credit than that. But it doesn't only go that far. If you look into the novels I'm certain you will understand the many, MANY factions, guilds, groups, clans, personages, and places these epic characters of the realms have come in contact with. Even if they where 18th level, they are certainly three times seasoned adventurers than we are (going from academy to level 20th and the final climax of the story).
Oerthian DnD is just my own term for standard run of the mill generic DnD (this includes the Living Greyhawk, Greyhawk, Oerth, the DnD Pantheon, the three core rulebooks, the Manual of the Planes, the guidebooks).
To Skuld:
I loved Darkstone. I too feel that it with some updates would be the perfect engine for this. I don't care if its vintage 98 graphics, it runs smooth and gets the job done.
Unfortunately it's graphical limitations would render it to short for today's standards. According to Valkryie of Delphine Software (used to post at The Shadows Darkstone Web forum) characters were limited to about 100 polys! Yes 100!!. They where done in half (the warrior female was about 68 polys) and then mirrored. All textures where to fit in a 256x256x16bit pic, and no bigger than that.
Throw that at some of these graphic sharks today and they'll ring you up on a skewer...
Using the Darkstone editor released by Delphine does not allow you to implement the D20 system. The Darkstone character data and advancement info is hardcoded unto the running exe. Its hardcoded for many reasons and that includes cheating and duping of items to be used online.
Still, it was a chipmunk of an engine. Maps could be done easily, same with triggers, events, and NPC scripting. To bad it has its own engine and the rules are hardcoded in and cannot be changed to D20
regards!
Mathurin:
I don't have problems with the timeline. Heck I will excuse all of the story problems I mentioned. My problem is my role in the game, that of an epic medieval rambo. Maybe you have played a FR/DnD session where a single person/group is everything, but I haven't. DM's typically keep a balance on each scale as best they can; wealth, experience, knowledge, and fame. Epic characters are used to keep the story going, to fit things into the right timeline, and to ensure that PC's in the realms understand they are part of a real world with personages more powerful than they. It gives a form of competition or allure to the realms that other settings (the Oerthian DnD for example) do not have, as you have a milestone to compare the fledging characters against.
To others:
Obviously each game is different from DM to DM. But one fact remains that is what I feel key to the Forgotten Realms universe. If you peruse the first few pages you should get that feeling. It is not standard Oerthian DnD. In standard Oerth DnD (Greyhawk, etc) your group players ARE the heroes. Yes in scope and scale they are the epic cast of the novel being set forth by the DM. But in Forgotten Realms (and actualy one of the greater complaints, and also explained in the FRCS) players are not necesarily in the same role as those of standard DnD. Not saying that PC's are trash, but that FR is repleat with many characters expressed in the novels and lore of the realms. PC's play a big role in the area they adventure in, however they are not out to save Toril from world domination. Then again this is opinionated and biased as to my view and experience of the FRCS.
In regards to some other coments made about our characters, I would have to disagree. Being 20th level, and doing the rather sublime quests that we do throughout this campaign, does not compare to the epic tales of Drizzt, or Elminster. Come on, you got to give a level 39 character much more credit than that. But it doesn't only go that far. If you look into the novels I'm certain you will understand the many, MANY factions, guilds, groups, clans, personages, and places these epic characters of the realms have come in contact with. Even if they where 18th level, they are certainly three times seasoned adventurers than we are (going from academy to level 20th and the final climax of the story).
Oerthian DnD is just my own term for standard run of the mill generic DnD (this includes the Living Greyhawk, Greyhawk, Oerth, the DnD Pantheon, the three core rulebooks, the Manual of the Planes, the guidebooks).
To Skuld:
I loved Darkstone. I too feel that it with some updates would be the perfect engine for this. I don't care if its vintage 98 graphics, it runs smooth and gets the job done.
Unfortunately it's graphical limitations would render it to short for today's standards. According to Valkryie of Delphine Software (used to post at The Shadows Darkstone Web forum) characters were limited to about 100 polys! Yes 100!!. They where done in half (the warrior female was about 68 polys) and then mirrored. All textures where to fit in a 256x256x16bit pic, and no bigger than that.
Throw that at some of these graphic sharks today and they'll ring you up on a skewer...
Using the Darkstone editor released by Delphine does not allow you to implement the D20 system. The Darkstone character data and advancement info is hardcoded unto the running exe. Its hardcoded for many reasons and that includes cheating and duping of items to be used online.
Still, it was a chipmunk of an engine. Maps could be done easily, same with triggers, events, and NPC scripting. To bad it has its own engine and the rules are hardcoded in and cannot be changed to D20
regards!
I'd be a huge fan of a "compress inventory" button. But as it is, I just have a magic bag for each type of thing...
Nygma: My turn now!
My comment on the multiplayer balance of multiple henchmen is thus: If you let everybody have 4 henchmen, and you have 3 people in a game, you have a party of 15, which gets absurd. If you -don't- put a limit on the amount of henchmen, you have to start asking yourself "if this is a server for 10 players, and I have 3 henchman, how many more actual players can join?" and "if this mod is built for 4 players...how many henchmen per player is it taking into account?". By my count, it just gets to be a pain in the arse. While I, too, would love to have the party interaction (Korgan+anybody else = funny as hell), I accept that it would be an imbalancing force.
As for Tomi unlocking...maybe Tomi and I just have some sort of rapport. Allow me to draw diagram.
PRE-CLICK:
O <--Me O<Tomi
|------|
| |
|------|
POST-CLICK:
O <--Me O<Tomi
|------|
| |
|------|
Note how I oh-so-cleverly make room for Tomi to come to the front of the chest! So smart me... It's not really tricky once you get the hang of it, although I do agree that there need to be set priorities: I, for one, would be happier if Tomi would finish whatever the ---- he's doing before he goes to do something else (unlock chest I told him to before he goes after a trap, for instance).
Aribeth storyline was good. Was I the only one, who, when playing through this game the first time, did NOT do all the side quests? =) I knew there would be time to do them later...NOW I had to save the world. Also, it didn't seem right for my character to be trying to find tomes for some greedy-ass mage when there was a cult on the loose. spoilerish...
and when I found out that Aribeth had disappeared, I was like "! Growl!", and didn't do many side-quests in Luskan either. Except those that involved brutally mauling someone (killed both Kurth and the other fellow...was angry!)
Can't say much more about the lag then it really doesn't happen to me. =(
And yes! Let's grumble about Morrowind. I played a leaping lizard monk type, with 100 acrobatics, athletics, and a lot of constant effect jump items. I -flew-. Unfortunately, this resulted in me getting stuck absolutely everywhere. I've lost count of the times that I'd jump accidentally downstairs in the Vivec mage's guild, and my head would go up and stick through the floor. I couldn't get out! Could just wriggle my toes and hope nobody stepped on my head.
Incidentally, I applaud your patience if you got to level 56...I never made it past 35 without saying "ok...I can kill everything in 1 hit...time to move on."
As for weight issues, you must find more magic loot than I do!!! I'm playing a sorceror now, with 8 strength (eep!), and I rarely find magic armor. Mostly find potions and scrolls..
-Cross
Nygma: My turn now!
My comment on the multiplayer balance of multiple henchmen is thus: If you let everybody have 4 henchmen, and you have 3 people in a game, you have a party of 15, which gets absurd. If you -don't- put a limit on the amount of henchmen, you have to start asking yourself "if this is a server for 10 players, and I have 3 henchman, how many more actual players can join?" and "if this mod is built for 4 players...how many henchmen per player is it taking into account?". By my count, it just gets to be a pain in the arse. While I, too, would love to have the party interaction (Korgan+anybody else = funny as hell), I accept that it would be an imbalancing force.
As for Tomi unlocking...maybe Tomi and I just have some sort of rapport. Allow me to draw diagram.
PRE-CLICK:
O <--Me O<Tomi
|------|
| |
|------|
POST-CLICK:
O <--Me O<Tomi
|------|
| |
|------|
Note how I oh-so-cleverly make room for Tomi to come to the front of the chest! So smart me... It's not really tricky once you get the hang of it, although I do agree that there need to be set priorities: I, for one, would be happier if Tomi would finish whatever the ---- he's doing before he goes to do something else (unlock chest I told him to before he goes after a trap, for instance).
Aribeth storyline was good. Was I the only one, who, when playing through this game the first time, did NOT do all the side quests? =) I knew there would be time to do them later...NOW I had to save the world. Also, it didn't seem right for my character to be trying to find tomes for some greedy-ass mage when there was a cult on the loose. spoilerish...
and when I found out that Aribeth had disappeared, I was like "! Growl!", and didn't do many side-quests in Luskan either. Except those that involved brutally mauling someone (killed both Kurth and the other fellow...was angry!)
Can't say much more about the lag then it really doesn't happen to me. =(
And yes! Let's grumble about Morrowind. I played a leaping lizard monk type, with 100 acrobatics, athletics, and a lot of constant effect jump items. I -flew-. Unfortunately, this resulted in me getting stuck absolutely everywhere. I've lost count of the times that I'd jump accidentally downstairs in the Vivec mage's guild, and my head would go up and stick through the floor. I couldn't get out! Could just wriggle my toes and hope nobody stepped on my head.
Incidentally, I applaud your patience if you got to level 56...I never made it past 35 without saying "ok...I can kill everything in 1 hit...time to move on."
As for weight issues, you must find more magic loot than I do!!! I'm playing a sorceror now, with 8 strength (eep!), and I rarely find magic armor. Mostly find potions and scrolls..
-Cross
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fable
- Posts: 30676
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I only read the first few entries in this thread, so please forgive my remarks if they duplicate what has already been stated.
For me, the most annoying aspect of NWN (and the reason why I've stopped playing it) is its unsuccessful attempt to marry roleplaying depth to a Diabloesque, "run from area to area killing things" approach to gaming. Diablo works because it's fairly mindless, a clickfest. As a roleplayer, I don't want to simply wander from attractive room to room and kill more and more things; I want puzzles, no shapes to areas, new challenges, different strategies to apply. Throwing 120 zombies, skeletons and the occasional ghoul at me as I walk through a house isn't my idea of an interesting challenge.
And when you add in the need to click on a ridiculous amount of chests, bureaus, boxes, crates, all filled with loot that for some reason nobody has thought about taking, before, I'm just forced to deal with too many repetitive, unimaginative tasks in a row. NWN is far too close, IMO, to the kind of game PS:T satirized with its Modron Maze: move from square room to identical square room, kill things, grab goodies, heal and move on. Dull, dull, dull.
For me, the most annoying aspect of NWN (and the reason why I've stopped playing it) is its unsuccessful attempt to marry roleplaying depth to a Diabloesque, "run from area to area killing things" approach to gaming. Diablo works because it's fairly mindless, a clickfest. As a roleplayer, I don't want to simply wander from attractive room to room and kill more and more things; I want puzzles, no shapes to areas, new challenges, different strategies to apply. Throwing 120 zombies, skeletons and the occasional ghoul at me as I walk through a house isn't my idea of an interesting challenge.
And when you add in the need to click on a ridiculous amount of chests, bureaus, boxes, crates, all filled with loot that for some reason nobody has thought about taking, before, I'm just forced to deal with too many repetitive, unimaginative tasks in a row. NWN is far too close, IMO, to the kind of game PS:T satirized with its Modron Maze: move from square room to identical square room, kill things, grab goodies, heal and move on. Dull, dull, dull.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
First off, I want to say that the graphics are beautiful. For those of you who don't think the graphics are good, it's probably becuase your video SUCKS.
Second, you say the game is waaaay to easy. But then, you say you want MORE henchmen and MORE control over them, thus making the game even easier. Get it straight guys.
You have to appreciate the game for what it is. If you don't like it, don't play it. You don't have to waste you time posting things you hate about it. Bioware made a product, and it's up to you if you want to buy it.
Second, you say the game is waaaay to easy. But then, you say you want MORE henchmen and MORE control over them, thus making the game even easier. Get it straight guys.
You have to appreciate the game for what it is. If you don't like it, don't play it. You don't have to waste you time posting things you hate about it. Bioware made a product, and it's up to you if you want to buy it.
the party issue turned me off very badly, i loved having parties, changing nwp equipment, and controlling them.
single player-60 hrs? people we expecting bg3, that means 200+hrs. i'm considering morrowwind now...
single player-60 hrs? people we expecting bg3, that means 200+hrs. i'm considering morrowwind now...
~Rahvin, Lord of Darkness~
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rpg-realm.com/forum
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rpg-realm.com/forum
Miraculously, fable, that has not yet been brought up.
I've sat here pondering for like 5 minutes now, and it's about bloody time I started typing, so here I go! Most of my ponderings have been about this: Is there any place in NWN where there was a bigger density of monsters than in a typical BG2 dungeon; say, Firkraag's place. Answer: No. Certainly, fights were more compartmentalized in BG2, and not the running fights that you get in NWN.
I think it's that compartmentalization that makes you compare it to Diablo. And don't get me wrong, I agree with you. The pace is a tad too frenetic for my liking. Ok, I'm going to give a SPOILER WARNING now, so I can talk specifics.
My favorite dungeon in NWN is Mutamin's Challenge. Why? Because it's remeniscent of the best BG2 dungeons, like the area underneath the asylum (so many riddles! woo!). But other dungeons seem a tad lacking, both in story and in substance.
Take, for example, the creator race ruins that you are sent to. I'm going to compare this quest to the Firkraag quest.
In the ruins quest, you're sent to find a -BOOK-. A ----ing book. You battle your way through about 6 levels of bad guys for a BOOK. And then you get 500 gold. Which is slightly less than you get for selling a dagger +1.
Hello? Am I missing something? Now, there are several problems with this quest.
1.) Rewards are way off-kilter. I mean, come on. I'm not saying I want more ph@t l3wt, but give me something creative!
2.) There is no PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT. This is a HUGE problem with NWN. You know what, I'm going to add in more carriage returns, because I've figured out that the following is what my post is going to conclude. If you ignore everything else I've written, read this:
Bioware, and RPGs in general are at their best when there is some level of personal involvement. Look at the most awesome quests from BG2. Firkraag; not only does gaelan help your ass, not only are you tricked into going there and doing something morally reprehensible (personal involvement), but his daughter is stolen from him right out from under your nose (more personal involvement). The thing that makes that quest great is that you really feel like it's your job, and you -have- to do it. None of this "I'll give you a bag of grain to go slay XXX" garbage.
When you think about it, the best quests in BG and BG2 involved you on a personal level. Can't believe I didn't isolate this earlier. All of BG2 was a quest to find out more about yourself; it doesn't get any more involved than that. And the imoen bits, of course. This all adds up to personal involvement.
So what was the best quest series in NWN? Obviously, the Aribeth series, even though it had a freaking horribly unsatisfactory ending. Why? Personal involvement; you get personally involved with Aribeth from stage one, more intimately so in stage 2. Thus, when she disappears, you're personally involved. (Ever get that "Aha! I've got it! I'm sooo right, and SOO on a roll!" feeling? I have that now.) That's why it's a compelling quest. Planescape:Torment? Why so terrific? Because it's -all about- the PC, and you feel it's important to you.
NWN gives you the diablo feel because, as Magus previously noted, there's no particular reason for YOU to be the hero. You're not the son of bhaal. Your sister wasn't kidnapped. Until Aribeth goes poof, there's no particular reason aside from the cash or fame that you're doing it. And that's not compelling. Nor is the quest to rescue a farmer's wife compelling; what? I should do it just coz I'm a hero? Maybe that works for somebody, but it would work a lot better if tomi ended up having a crush on their daughter and bugged me to go save the wife until I had to. Sure, that's a **** plot, but that's why I'm not paid to do this...it's still personal involvement, which is an arseload better than "go do this coz you're a hero! thx!!!" which happens throughout the game.
All right. I'm done with the rant. I'm convinced that I have the problem pinpointed: Bioware failed to have side quests and the main quest involve your character enough personally. ph33r me! Either that or tell me that I'm wrong! =)
-Cross
I've sat here pondering for like 5 minutes now, and it's about bloody time I started typing, so here I go! Most of my ponderings have been about this: Is there any place in NWN where there was a bigger density of monsters than in a typical BG2 dungeon; say, Firkraag's place. Answer: No. Certainly, fights were more compartmentalized in BG2, and not the running fights that you get in NWN.
I think it's that compartmentalization that makes you compare it to Diablo. And don't get me wrong, I agree with you. The pace is a tad too frenetic for my liking. Ok, I'm going to give a SPOILER WARNING now, so I can talk specifics.
My favorite dungeon in NWN is Mutamin's Challenge. Why? Because it's remeniscent of the best BG2 dungeons, like the area underneath the asylum (so many riddles! woo!). But other dungeons seem a tad lacking, both in story and in substance.
Take, for example, the creator race ruins that you are sent to. I'm going to compare this quest to the Firkraag quest.
In the ruins quest, you're sent to find a -BOOK-. A ----ing book. You battle your way through about 6 levels of bad guys for a BOOK. And then you get 500 gold. Which is slightly less than you get for selling a dagger +1.
Hello? Am I missing something? Now, there are several problems with this quest.
1.) Rewards are way off-kilter. I mean, come on. I'm not saying I want more ph@t l3wt, but give me something creative!
2.) There is no PERSONAL INVOLVEMENT. This is a HUGE problem with NWN. You know what, I'm going to add in more carriage returns, because I've figured out that the following is what my post is going to conclude. If you ignore everything else I've written, read this:
Bioware, and RPGs in general are at their best when there is some level of personal involvement. Look at the most awesome quests from BG2. Firkraag; not only does gaelan help your ass, not only are you tricked into going there and doing something morally reprehensible (personal involvement), but his daughter is stolen from him right out from under your nose (more personal involvement). The thing that makes that quest great is that you really feel like it's your job, and you -have- to do it. None of this "I'll give you a bag of grain to go slay XXX" garbage.
When you think about it, the best quests in BG and BG2 involved you on a personal level. Can't believe I didn't isolate this earlier. All of BG2 was a quest to find out more about yourself; it doesn't get any more involved than that. And the imoen bits, of course. This all adds up to personal involvement.
So what was the best quest series in NWN? Obviously, the Aribeth series, even though it had a freaking horribly unsatisfactory ending. Why? Personal involvement; you get personally involved with Aribeth from stage one, more intimately so in stage 2. Thus, when she disappears, you're personally involved. (Ever get that "Aha! I've got it! I'm sooo right, and SOO on a roll!" feeling? I have that now.) That's why it's a compelling quest. Planescape:Torment? Why so terrific? Because it's -all about- the PC, and you feel it's important to you.
NWN gives you the diablo feel because, as Magus previously noted, there's no particular reason for YOU to be the hero. You're not the son of bhaal. Your sister wasn't kidnapped. Until Aribeth goes poof, there's no particular reason aside from the cash or fame that you're doing it. And that's not compelling. Nor is the quest to rescue a farmer's wife compelling; what? I should do it just coz I'm a hero? Maybe that works for somebody, but it would work a lot better if tomi ended up having a crush on their daughter and bugged me to go save the wife until I had to. Sure, that's a **** plot, but that's why I'm not paid to do this...it's still personal involvement, which is an arseload better than "go do this coz you're a hero! thx!!!" which happens throughout the game.
All right. I'm done with the rant. I'm convinced that I have the problem pinpointed: Bioware failed to have side quests and the main quest involve your character enough personally. ph33r me! Either that or tell me that I'm wrong! =)
-Cross
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Wraithus Dire
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 9:37 am
- Location: Toronto, Canada
- Contact:
As far as stories go, I believe Planescape Torment was head & shoulders above the rest.
For me, I want a graphical epic story. Diabloesque hack-n-slash are wonderful if done well (see Diablo, Diablo II), but when I buy a RPG DnD game, I expect a Graphical Epic Story.
Please read this if you read nothing else: As an evil character in NwN, to accept the main quest, my dialogue option from Fenbrick (or whatever) was that: Since I choose not to help, I am being conscripted into service.
10 minutes later, why not just butcher the town guards and waltz through the gates? Or end up in Port Llast, take the south road and just keep on going?
Here's my point: The story should make you WANT to go on. Just like a good movie, you need to care what happens next. I constantly find myself not giving a rat's arse what happens because a) Not interested b) Can already figure it out -> Example: Was anyone really fooled by Solomon and the other host of bad-guys-pretending-to-be-good-guys?
You know, I remember in BG2 picking up this gnome fellow who kept trying to steal this other fellow's hamster.
Brilliant.
And I remember in Torment picking up this skull chap who read a tattoo off my back. Does anyone else remember that feeling when you discover the skull guy didn't read the whole message?
That's what I mean when I say an involving graphical story.
WD
For me, I want a graphical epic story. Diabloesque hack-n-slash are wonderful if done well (see Diablo, Diablo II), but when I buy a RPG DnD game, I expect a Graphical Epic Story.
Please read this if you read nothing else: As an evil character in NwN, to accept the main quest, my dialogue option from Fenbrick (or whatever) was that: Since I choose not to help, I am being conscripted into service.
10 minutes later, why not just butcher the town guards and waltz through the gates? Or end up in Port Llast, take the south road and just keep on going?
Here's my point: The story should make you WANT to go on. Just like a good movie, you need to care what happens next. I constantly find myself not giving a rat's arse what happens because a) Not interested b) Can already figure it out -> Example: Was anyone really fooled by Solomon and the other host of bad-guys-pretending-to-be-good-guys?
You know, I remember in BG2 picking up this gnome fellow who kept trying to steal this other fellow's hamster.
Brilliant.
And I remember in Torment picking up this skull chap who read a tattoo off my back. Does anyone else remember that feeling when you discover the skull guy didn't read the whole message?
That's what I mean when I say an involving graphical story.
WD