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What are you whining about?

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Bri Guy
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What are you whining about?

Post by Bri Guy »

Ok, as I've stated in a few of my posts, I'm EXTREMELY new to Gamebanshee, PC gaming, and conversely, on-line gaming. So I'm probably missing something here. If anyone can help explain this to me, I'd appreciate it.

Being new to GameBanshee, I decided to "surf" it for a while, post a few messages, see what kind of responses I'd get. I found some great forum's, and haven't even gone into the content side yet. This site seems like a useful tool, which will enhance your gaming experience, and help you become part of an on-line gaming community, while sharing information, helping each other, and maybe (who knows, stranger things have happened) meet a friend or two along the way. ;)

The point to all this rambling is.... what's the big deal if you have to pay for something? I don't consider myself a rich man by any means, but to spend $24.95 for a 12 month subscribtion for a site that your really enjoy, seems minimal. If you went outside to any game shop, or even on-line, and purchased a strategy guide, you'd pay anywhere from 19.95 - 29.95 for it. But, you'll never get any inside information on the game.

One person runs this site with what I'm assuming is his free time due to a "labor of love" quote I saw on one posting. If this is not his full time job (that is, what puts food on his table, and a roof over his head), and he ran this site for so long, losing thousands of dollars along the way, then he should be entitled to enlist the services of another company for assistance. :confused:

Furthermore, if this is actually his full time job, and he charges for his services... SO WHAT!!! What is wrong with someone creating a place for people to go, gather information, enjoy themselves, and earn a little bit of extra cash along the way? :confused:

Maybe I've spoken out of line for being so new to all of this, but IMO if you don't want to pay for a site... simply don't go! For those of us who enjoy this site, leave us alone, good riddance.. don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you, and fare the well.

I apologize if I seem hostile, but sometimes..... oh I think you get the picture...

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Scayde
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Post by Scayde »

DITO!!!!I am Verrrrry new to the gaming community, but it is my newest obsession, and I wan't to thank/applaud/admire/and support Buck and the GB community for having the best site on the net. I have never played a game before which held my interest the way MW has and without this community I probably would not have enjoyed it nearly as much.(And that is the bottom line on what these forums are about, right?) You guys are a great community, and I enjoy stopping in each day to see what y'all have posted and what new thoughts or questions have been thrown out there.
I have searched, and still search, every MW site my SE pulls up and I promise no site out there has the info, class, or quality of people that this site has. Kudos to all the members for keeping it a notch above, and hats off to Buck or setting the tone.
Daddy always said "If you wanna play, you gotta pay" and there is nothing wrong for charging for services well rendered. I have been a member for a month now and this is the first time I have run across anything re: finances, so obviously Buck isn't being solicitous about it, but if I had known about the costs and offset I would have gladly payed my way. It's well worth it!!!
So on my last note, letme say @Buck: Thank You for hosting the BEST D*** FORUM ON THE WEB
@ The GB Community: Glad to Meet Ya !!!
&@ The Bean Counters: SIGN ME UP!!!!!!!!!



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The fallen one
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Post by The fallen one »

mixed emotion

Well I have to say this is a very good Site. And I am in serious thought If I want to pay for the use of the site. I have been around for some time now. And have used the site alot when it was free and it does have the most content on games. It has alot more good quailty content then any other I have seen. Well I do use one other site and I am not going to mention names but it was in the same finicial shape as this site but they never went to this flashlink thing. The forum users got together and manged to pool enough money together that the administator did not have to use flash link. I kind of wish buck could have waited a little longer and tried to pley with people to help him out. But that is bucks decision and I respect they way he went.
But the only thing that I have to say is: What do people think when they set up there web sites that it is going to be a cheap thing, from what I see it is not. So why get into it. Do not get me wrong I am a very happy person that this site is here. But when people make a site do they not wish it to be a great site with lots of users. I would think that would be a goal to reach for if it was me but I am not Buck so I can speak for him and what his goals were. Anyways enough ranting.
And ty Buck for all your effort into the sites.

Ok one last thing I am a little nevous using my Credit card how else could I pay if I want to use the walk throughs. :D
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Post by Xandax »

Re: mixed emotion
Originally posted by The fallen one
<snip>
But the only thing that I have to say is: What do people think when they set up there web sites that it is going to be a cheap thing, from what I see it is not. <snip>[/b]
Well untill 1½ year ago (approximately) website could actually be run witht he revenue from sponsers, due to the fact of the so called "new economy". When the internet bubble and thus the new economy bursted (dot-com crisis), revenu from sponsers and adds fell significantly and the internet started to move towards the "pay 2 use" princip. It is not something that "suddenly" happens to people, it is a trend and nesecarity that happens on the internet. Dueing the "golden years" of the "new economy" people got used to the fact that internet (well the content) was free. Although I liked it also, I know that "free" content on the internet would be minimised.
You pay for subscription to a newspaper, you pay for television channels, you pay for anything else you use, so why not pay for content on the internet.
I know it is annoying, and sometimes can be expensive - but I fail to see why information on the internet should be any different then all other infomation.
Besides free sites will always exists, untill they become so popular, that they will have to increase band-with (if they care :) ).

To sum up, people don't think it is cheap to maintain websites, it is just that the economy behind it has changed over the last couple of years from the "Golden age of the new economy" to the more realistic "pay 2 use".
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Demis
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Post by Demis »

Re: mixed emotion
Originally posted by The fallen one
Ok one last thing I am a little nevous using my Credit card how else could I pay if I want to use the walk throughs. :D
There are a couple of alternative ways to subscribe. Check here for more details.
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CtrlAltDel
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

While you all might think this is the greatest thing since sliced bread there are other ways that you can run a site and not try and profit off your users in such a cheap way.

I run a site also, get tons of hits, millions a month, and it is still free to everyone.

I really think if you look around and find a better hosting plan, that the costs of the site would drop and you wouldnt have to try and do something like this.

I thought really highly of this site before, but now that random links are links to 'Pay us Now' pages, you have fallen a few rungs on the ladder, and that is sad, because this is a really good site too. Plus the fact that its not like we are paying for anything here that we can't find elsewhere. So why not just ask for donations, its basically the same thing. People that dont want to pay, arnt, and people that want to donate, will. I take donations at my site, and the people that like to donate do it repeatedly. But I am not going to start forcing people pay for certain areas.

This could have all been done so much differently.
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Post by T'lainya »

Nobody's going to "beat you up" for a different opinion. The fact is that Buck did ask for donations, repeatedly. He ran the site like that for months and couldn't get enough donations to offset his costs.
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Post by fable »

I second T'lainya on the above. @CtrlAltDel, nobody will try to prevent you from having a different opinion; and I'm sure you're already aware of Buck's policy on flaming. So I wouldn't expect people to climb down your throat. :)

That said, I know Buck's been hurting on this site. He sweated it out for some time, trying to get donations. I'm sure he investigated the available alternatives, and decided on the one he considered best. If you have suggestions to make, which it appears you do, let's hear 'em.
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CtrlAltDel
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

Just some ideas to throw out there, they might have been looked into, used, whatever, this is tip of the iceberg stuff.

1. banners, nice i see them, if they arnt really making a dent in the cost, nuke them. better options later.

2. hosting plans, how expensive is the one you are on now, is it too big of a plan for where the site is now? there should only be room for like 10-15% growth in your current plan from where you site is now, at that time, get a new plan. Its more cost efficient in the long run.

Ok this is a great site, we all know that, thats why we are here. This is one of the best rpg sites out there, yet MANY people have no clue its out there at all. This could turn into one of if not THE premiere rpg site for computer gamers/etc out there.

One way to accomplish this, approach the game companies and the Big Boys. What I mean by the big boys are the other big sites out there. Work out some banners with them to your your name out there a little more. Just visibility banners, yeah they take up space, but they do wonders for traffic.

Game companies, start working out exclusive interviews with game companies, demos, extra media, possibly even banners with them. Things to make your site more in demand then the other rpg sites. This is something that you could charge for...exclusive content.

Another thing, hosting sister sites.
Ever thought of charging people for space on your server to do little clan sites or fan sites? That is something worth charging for, as I am sure many people would like to do that but just dont have the means to do it.


Ok I think thats enough for now, lets see how much of that gets shot down by the firing squad.
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BuckGB
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Post by BuckGB »

I've made quite a few posts in the past explaining all of my reasons for joining Flashlink, but I'll see if I can do so again. I think it's a bit presumptuous of you to say that we are "profiting off our users". The little bit of money that's left above the cost of running the site so far has gone towards paying past site debts.
Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
1. banners, nice i see them, if they arnt really making a dent in the cost, nuke them. better options later.
Banners are still bringing in about one hundred dollars a month, which goes towards paying about 1/7 of our hosting costs. They will most likely always be here (and every other gaming site on the internet) unless they don't bring in enough revenue to even bother.
Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
2. hosting plans, how expensive is the one you are on now, is it too big of a plan for where the site is now? there should only be room for like 10-15% growth in your current plan from where you site is now, at that time, get a new plan. Its more cost efficient in the long run.
Several people have claimed that we could find cheaper hosting than what we have now, but I've never actually seen any suggestions that provide reasonable alternatives. We've been with Verio hosting for over two years now, and they've always been great to work with. The site is monitored 24/7 to make sure it's always up, they've been very leniant when we've went above and beyond our alotted bandwidth, and they provide excellent service when we need things changed on the server, etc. I wouldn't change hosting providers unless I was absolutely certain that another company would provide similar or better service at a lower cost.
Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
One way to accomplish this, approach the game companies and the Big Boys. What I mean by the big boys are the other big sites out there. Work out some banners with them to your your name out there a little more. Just visibility banners, yeah they take up space, but they do wonders for traffic.
I stay in good contact with a lot of the big gaming sites out there, and most of them have a link to GameBanshee somewhere on their site. In addition, I always let them know when we have news-worthy content to help bring in traffic. None of the big sites are going to do banner exchanges when they can make money displaying banners in that same space.
Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
Game companies, start working out exclusive interviews with game companies, demos, extra media, possibly even banners with them. Things to make your site more in demand then the other rpg sites. This is something that you could charge for...exclusive content.
We've done quite a few interviews in the past, and are always talking with developers to try and get more. Whenever we get "extra media", you'll see it posted on the site within a day or two. However, these types of things are to get traffic (through other gaming sites posting news about them), not to charge for. I think it's very disrespectful to ask a developer to take time out of his/her busy schedule to answer our questions about a game, and then go make it a subscription area. I don't want the developer who took their time to answer the questions having to subscribe to Flashlink just to see it on the site.

The content I *do* feel is worth charging for are things like walkthroughs and equipment databases. These are the things that take weeks or even months to create, and all the work is done by myself or another GameBanshee editor. People have the choice to read a walkthrough on the internet at another site, but if they feel ours is better, then I think a subscription to view it (thus keeping the site afloat) is reasonable.

Equipment databases are even more time-consuming than walkthroughs, and I feel this is where GameBanshee really shines. For example, you can find a text list of the equipment in the Infinity Engine games on other sites. This text list is easily exported using IE editors out there, and many sites can have a list of the equipment in an hour's worth of work. We could do the same thing, but we don't. I can't even tell you how long it takes to screenshot *thousands* of magical items, crop them all, sort them by item type, create an equipment section to view them all, and then list every location in the game that you can find each item. It's a ton of work, and I feel it's worth charging a subscription for in order to keep the site running in the future.
Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
Another thing, hosting sister sites.
Ever thought of charging people for space on your server to do little clan sites or fan sites? That is something worth charging for, as I am sure many people would like to do that but just dont have the means to do it.
This used to be a great idea, and a lot of sites did just that. In fact, they didn't even charge for hosting, you could set up a fan site for free. All you had to do is display the hosting site's banners. However, since banner revenue is no longer bringing in enough revenue to cover bandwidth, it isn't worth it anymore. The only sites still giving free hosting are the really big sites like GameSpy, who have a sales team selling their banner ads. They get a much higher premium for their banners than we would using an ad agency, so it's probably still profitable for them.

I'm not really sure why you feel charging a subscription for a small percentage of our content is "such a cheap way" of keeping the site running. Take a look at a lot of the bigger gaming sites out there - GameSpot, IGN, etc. They all charge a subscription fee for certain content, and I guarantee more sites will follow in their footsteps. With advertising revenue as low as it is, it's the only way to keep a site running and bring in enough money for future additions, site renovations, and maybe a paid editor or two.
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CtrlAltDel
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

Ok, maybe I'm a little jaded since my site is a little more self sufficient then this place is. Oh and so the site is costing around ~$700/month? Is that all server cost? Are you on one of the managed plans?

"I think it's very disrespectful to ask a developer to take time out of his/her busy schedule to answer our questions about a game, and then go make it a subscription area. I don't want the developer who took their time to answer the questions having to subscribe to Flashlink just to see it on the site. "

Tons of other sites do the same thing, make most of their money that way too. You arnt forced into making the interviewees pay, if we want to get complicated you can setup the whole 'pay for an area' thing differently. Heck give the developers a different link when you put the page up that lets them see the whole thing. Give people a partial or a quick overview of the interview, then make them pay for the 3 page log version. Thats the kind of stuff that draws people to you site, once they are here and look around for awhile, maybe you get them to subscribe.

What I dont want to see start happening is the 'pay to access this forum', and the like, that is incredibly easy to add to a forum such as this, and I'm sure you've talked about it.

I take this whole 'running a website' thing as a hobby, yeah my site is popular and i get lots of hits/bw used/etc, but Im not inundating my users with banners and 'pay for this' across my site. Heck the only banners I have ever ran at the site were 9/11 rememberance banners, and that was one day.

btw I am also hosted in a verio datacenter, pretty nice server too
4:31AM up 74 days, 2:05
hasnt been down since an upgrade.

Thought about slapping your logo on some mugs or mousepads or t-shirts? I'm sure some people would buy those too. I don't see how staying in good contact with the game companies in itself hasnt been profitable for you. I mean you should be getting beta test offers, interview offers, media, etc. All of these things should be exposing GB and bringing in revenue.

I want to see this place stay up, I'm just throwing out stuff at this point.

Oh and the hosting thing
Give people 20-50MB, monitor their bandwidth and charge them a fair amount. You'd be doing fine off that i'd figure.
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CtrlAltDel
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

oh im also redoing my forums from the ground up and designing my own portal system to interact with the board. things are coming along well. after that happens, i plan on seeking out companies for interviews/etc a little more aggressivly.

so things should be changing around my place some within the next six months.
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Post by BuckGB »

Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
Ok, maybe I'm a little jaded since my site is a little more self sufficient then this place is. Oh and so the site is costing around ~$700/month? Is that all server cost? Are you on one of the managed plans?
Keep in mind that our server is not the only cost. I've purchased licenses for several web scripts (this forum, a MySQL database program, an ad rotator, etc) and these have totaled well over $1000.

Either your website doesn't cost this much to run (since you don't even use banners), or you're independently wealthy (which I am not). If your website *did* cost over $10,000 a year to run, how long would you continue running the site without some sort of consistent revenue?
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

Well first way I save money is by not wasting it on scripts (and I’m not independently wealthy, yet).

"Roll your own"

I'm a programmer by trade, so I get to save myself cost in that. The licenses I do have are relatively cheap and aren’t even worth mentioning in the grand scheme of things.

I have an 'ad rotator script' (and I don’t even run banners currently), I have database maintenance, site maintenance, all that stuff, custom written, saves a ton of cash. And whatever I don’t have give me a few days and I’ll have that custom written too. Being a programmer benefits you the option of being lazy, that means when you see something that’s going to take a lot of work, write something up to do it for you.

What kind of daily traffic stats do you guys get around here? Hits/Uniques/Files/KBs?

Did you just say you ‘bought MySQL’?

I'm not criticizing or trying to be negative about what goes on around here, but 10g's a year give or take seems a little steep and sounds like you are getting ripped off somewhere. If it’s a matter of bandwidth usage there are ways to limit that down. Like for one, eliminate the files section. People will *****, but heck, just post links to other sites download pages or other sites with said files on a page of your own or in the forums.

I’m just trying to figure out some ideas for you guys, it’s your site in the end, run it how you want but these are just suggestions and me thinking out loud or something.

Ideas:
http://www.dellhost.com/solutions/shared/index.asp
http://www.dellhost.com/solutions/dedicated/web.asp
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Post by BuckGB »

Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
Well first way I save money is by not wasting it on scripts (and I’m not independently wealthy, yet).

"Roll your own"

I'm a programmer by trade, so I get to save myself cost in that.
You may be a programmer, but I'm just a guy who knows enough to produce gaming content on the web. Even if I were a programmer, I would not have time to create nifty programs like this entire forum from scratch. I already spend 3-4 hours a day on GameBanshee (after I get home from my fulltime job), so I have no idea where I'd find time to script programs myself. I'd much rather buy a license for a professionally created script that is commonly used throughout the internet.
Originally posted by CtrlAltDel
Did you just say you ‘bought MySQL’?

I'm not criticizing or trying to be negative about what goes on around here, but 10g's a year give or take seems a little steep and sounds like you are getting ripped off somewhere.
No, it's freeware. I purchased a $600 license for a MySQL-based database program called WebDataPro, which runs all of our Dark Age of Camelot databases, among other things. Before I started GameBanshee, I worked on other gaming sites, and I assure you that most of them pay more than we do per month/year. Many of the scripts we use are the exact same ones other sites use, and Verio's *minimum* hosting charge per month is over $400 (for a server with 128 MB of RAM, which is obviously too low for us). To someone who has time to code their own scripts and can utilize a cheaper server, it very well might seem like we're getting "ripped off".
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

Especially since you can get a pretty nice system for $300/month from dell with 40gb/month transfer.

The vBulletin board is fine, its what I'll use when I redo my site, thing is that is only a few hundered a year if that depending on the license model.

Also, during the course of my full time job i have free amounts of time which allow me to do some work on my site.

You do what you gotta do I guess.
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Post by BuckGB »

The performance of the Dell system you referred to pales in comparison to the one GameBanshee currently runs on, and the alotted bandwidth is far less than what we receive from Verio now.

Regardless, I am tired of defending my decisions over and over again. I have been honest since day one of GameBanshee, providing detailed information about what the site costs to run and what sort of revenue it brings in. I have been providing this information so that our viewers can have an understanding of why I was forced to move the site to a subscription-based model, not to have you accuse me of "profiting off our users in such a cheap way" or getting "ripped off" by our hosting provider. Your site might cost less to run with different hosting, better programming skills, and the freedom to work on it during your day job, but since you aren't aware of all the facts, know all of the circumstances, or understand my time constraints, I don't think you have the right to judge me or this website.

If, after everything I have said, you want to believe GameBanshee is making me a wealthy person, that is your choice. I have provided more than enough information to prove otherwise.

Anyway, I am done posting in this thread. If you have anything more to say about the matter, please send it to me in private message only.
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Post by Bri Guy »

Oh for the love of Friday evenings and a case of Corona, please leave Buck alone!!! He's done a tremendous job with this site. If you don't like it, keep your comments to yourself. Read my original post on this subject.

I don't mean to sound hostile, I just am hostile!
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Post by Bloodmist »

Originally posted by Bri Guy
Oh for the love of Friday evenings and a case of Corona, please leave Buck alone!!! He's done a tremendous job with this site. If you don't like it, keep your comments to yourself. Read my original post on this subject.

I don't mean to sound hostile, I just am hostile!


Hear, Hear !!!

Buck's doing a great job and, anyway, everything on the web is becoming pay-sites. So why are people this angry, or dissapointed, about having to pay for the services of the greatest resource, site for almost every RPG, on the internet?
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Post by CtrlAltDel »

I said they were ideas and I was just getting some info. Were you people not able to see that at all?

I'm done with this thread.
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