Your opinions on theives please

Screaming Johny · Post by **Screaming Johny** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:03 pm

OK, I have finally decided to play through as evil for the simple reason of actually taking all of the evil NPC's and trying the evil chapter 3. It seems to me that since you have a single class mage(Edwin), fighter(Korgan), and cleric(Viccy) that the PC should be a single class theif.

I have thought of playing a couple of different characters:

1. Halfling Swashbuckler. Basically as a short-bow archer and general fighter/thief that can't backstab. With specialization, a giant girdle, boots of speed, & DW 2 swords that give an extra attack, he still ends up with 5 attacks/round.

2. Halfling Assasin. This is more in character as an evil Bhaalspawn. I have seen many posts about the virtues of this class, but can he really hit anything with such a lousy THACO?

3. A fighter/thief. As I have played a good Kensai/Theif I know this combo rocks, but seeing as the rest of the party is only one class, shouldn't I be too?

What is everyone else's thoughts? I will probably never play evil again, so I want to have fun with it the first time.

Thanks

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 3:33 pm

Swashie, assassin and multi-class fighter-thief are all good.

If you want to try assassin, use a giant-strength girdle and bracers of archery to boost THACO. A thief gets a +4 to hit when hidden, so use that to your advantage.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:16 pm

Originally posted by Screaming Johny
It seems to me that since you have a single class mage(Edwin), fighter(Korgan), and cleric(Viccy) that the PC should be a single class theif...

seeing as the rest of the party is only one class, shouldn't I be too?

I don't see any reason why the PC should be single-class just because your other party members are single-class.

BTW, I don't mean to be nitpicky, but you've been misspelling the word "Thief".

Originally posted by Screaming Johny
I have finally decided to play through as evil for the simple reason of actually taking all of the evil NPC's and trying the evil chapter 3...

By "the evil chapter 3", I presume you're referring to the option to side with Bodhi instead of the Shadow Thieves. Personally, I don't believe that siding with her is any more evil than siding with the Shadow Thieves; they are both morally questionable choices. If I had my way, I'd destroy both of their organizations and rid the world of their pestilence. Well, when I side with Bodhi, I can do just that. That's great! So in my opinion, that makes siding with Bodhi in Chapter Three (and then kicking her butt later) the better choice. Not to mention the fact that siding with Bodhi is more rewarding and less dangerous than siding with the Shadow Thieves.

As for specific suggestions about playing a Thief, I have found that Swashbucklers are a lot of fun, especially if they acquire the high level ability called "Use Any Item", which is available if you install Throne of Bhaal. Swashbucklers are pretty good in melee. Unfortunately, unlike other Thieves, they cannot acquire the high level ability called "Assassination", which makes things fun. I've never really liked Assassins all that much, because they can't ever hit anything until the rest of your party has enabled them to advance to a really high level. As you yourself pointed out, a Fighter (or kit) dualled to a Thief is a great character (although Kensai/Thieves seem a bit cheesy to me). There's also a lot to be said for a multi-class Fighter/Thief. In addition to "Use Any Item" and "Assassination", a Fighter/Thief can also acquire the high level abilities called "Deathblow" and "Critical Strike" if you have installed Throne of Bhaal, and you just won't believe what they can do. Don't rule out a multi-class Fighter/Thief just because your other party members are single-class.

If you want to play a dual-class character, that means you won't acquire thieving skills for a while. If you're having problems with traps and locked doors and so forth, there's no reason why you can't recruit Imoen, Yoshimo, or Nalia temporarily to help you with those until your own character becomes a Thief. The experience you have to share with them can be slightly offset by the experience they gain from disarming traps and opening locks. When I play, I recruit whatever help I need for a particular quest and dismiss them if I don't need them or want them in my party any longer. That's the way adventuring is. I don't think there's any reason why any NPC has to follow me wherever I go, and I don't think there's any reason why the party has to be closed off to anyone who isn't a permanent party member.

Sojourner · Post by **Sojourner** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:19 pm

Forgot to mention - if you want to side with Bodhi, you can't do it with a pure-class thief as your protaganist.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 4:28 pm

I forgot about that, Sojourner. That's another good reason not to be a single-class Thief if you want to side with Bodhi.

Skuld · Post by **Skuld** » Mon Dec 30, 2002 7:07 pm

Do it with a Fighter/Thief. My first run through the game was PC Elven F/T, Haer'Dalis, Viconia, and Edwin. If you choose a 4 man evil party you'd just be swaping Korgan for Haer'Dalis which is good because I ended up giving Crom Faeyr to Viccy. I really liked Haer'Dalis, so if you'd like to try him or a 5th member go for it. Give him Kundane and Cutthroat(Shortsword of Backstabbing until you get Cutthroat) and he's the perfect secondary blendor/spellcaster. He carried a lot of group oriented buffs and protection while Edwin concentrated killing lots of stuff. But Korgan would be fun too, and even better if you had room for Jan.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 4:42 am

Halfling F/T is a great class and you finally have a use for the smaller weapons in the game, especially slings, short swords and daggers.

Halflings have perfect thieving skills, can have 19 dex and their lack of strength is no problem at all.

Pretty much fun to watch your tiny PC backstabbing ogres.

Screaming Johny · Post by **Screaming Johny** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:55 am

Theives (Spoiler)

OK, I guess we'll have to add spoiler to this thread now, but why can't a thief side with Bhodi?

I intended on getting my stronghold in chapter 2 prior to choosing.

Indra · Post by **Indra** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:09 am

(Spoiler)

SPOILER
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I was playing a swash once and when I went to the graveyard, she says something like "You are too commited a thief to be on my side" and that the next time we meet it will be as opponents. In short, she does NOT offer you a choice..Ind it has nothing to do with the stronghold, as I'd turned it down by then. 'd never play a pure thief though. I'd not be happy being the weakest char in my team..especially a team with Edwin and Viconia who never tire of telling you how puny you are..

DraySkullan · Post by **DraySkullan** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:47 am

My main character (actually a character I almost always play) the first time through is a Swashbuckler, and I have to say he turned out to be one heckuva tank. Plus you dont have to waste one of your NPC slots on a thief. All you lose is the ability to backstab, but you get mega AC bonuses at high levels, and good offensive bonuses as well.

Indra · Post by **Indra** » Tue Dec 31, 2002 10:40 am

@GreySkullan,
You're right, of course. I took my Swash to Lvl 18 and then just got bored - He's a really good tank w/ some intresting twists, like Detect illusions and Spike & Time Traps. And he has incredible AC. Yes, he can serve as the only thief, but the idea of a hero pick-pocketing merchants (specially a swash) seems a bit..sleazy. I always end up taking Jan for all that messy work. And the lack of backstabs does hurt against tough opponents..
Personally I'm partial to Magic users and have given up playing non-arcane chars. In Faerun especially with the Tactics mod, Magic IS the path of power, and I like my char to be more powerful than the NPCs. Maybe I'll try a SK'ed Swash/Mage multi the next time through..

Twyze · Post by **Twyze** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:01 am

I suppose the reason that Bodhi won't accept a thief is because she is fighting a guild war against the shadow thieves. She would be understanably suspicious of a thief offering to help her. Could be a double-cross.

A shame, because a thief is an obvious evil PC character to choose. The other evil characters are Ewin (mage), Viconia (Cleric) and Korgan (fighter). In my evil party game I made the mistake of playing an assassin (later duelled to fighter) but then found I couldn't side with Bodhi.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:56 am

Originally posted by Twyze
I suppose the reason that Bodhi won't accept a thief is because she is fighting a guild war against the shadow thieves. She would be understanably suspicious of a thief offering to help her. Could be a double-cross.

Good reasoning.

A shame, because a thief is an obvious evil PC character to choose. The other evil characters are Ewin (mage), Viconia (Cleric) and Korgan (fighter).

But note the reaction of these characters to Bodhi: decidedly mixed, at best. This shows the limitations of Gygax's superficial alignment system, IMO. For example, Korgan is vicious, but loyal and honest, and willing to help the good side provided he gets his share of the spoils, which sounds more neutral-selfish than indicating any philosophical predisposition to evil. He's not at all pleased with Bodhi, where a truly evil character would be.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 6:40 pm

I guess Korgan can hardly accept a stronger evil character than he is.

You're probably correct, the AD&D alignment system is superficial but a good PnP DM can change this a lot. I don't expect a computer program to judge alignment questions correctly, altough I was surprised by what they've achieved in PS: T.

On the other hand the system is easy to use.

Slaying evil monsters, saving the world = Good
Slaying non-evil characters just because you can = Evil
Slaying whatever with poison / black magic = Evil
Helping old people to cross the road = Good

... and so on.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Thu Jan 02, 2003 9:21 pm

I would suggest going with an assassin if you want to truly roleplay the evil character.

If you are committed to being a halfling and any type of thief (single or mult-class), you can't side with Bodhi. However, if you choose a human fighter you can dual to thief after you meet her in the graveyard and she won't bat an eye. Also this will allow you to romance Viconia (if you care to).

Speaking of Viconia, isn't it odd that she won't romance the smaller folk? She seems like the kind of gal that would be into midgets...

Impaler987 · Post by **Impaler987** » Fri Jan 03, 2003 12:59 am

For an evil character, give your assassin 13 levels, then dual him to fighter. He'll get his assassin powers back well before the SoA experience cap, and when he does, he'll kick so much butt.