The Sports Bar

Bloodmist · Post by **Bloodmist** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:39 am

Originally posted by Tybaltus
Sounds like auto racing except soccer lasts for 90 minutes less....I dont think it quite makes the cut to the elite class

Give it a try, and then comment

Originally posted by Minerva
CELTIC vs LIVERPOOL!! Don't forget the big match tonight!

Celtic wins, 2-1.

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:45 am

Originally posted by Bloodmist
Give it a try, and then comment

Celtic wins, 2-1.

I did. I ran out of breath after 10 min.

But Basketball was harder to keep up with, and added the challenge of shooting with it.

And I wouldnt like to try to go auto racing with skilled drivers, for sure...thats just asking for trouble.

w00t! Go Celtics!

Bloodmist · Post by **Bloodmist** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:54 am

Originally posted by Tybaltus
added the challenge of shooting with it.

Contrary to soccer?

Originally posted by Tybaltus
I did. I ran out of breath after 10 min.

LOL, I'm not in a good enough shape to keep it up the entire 90 minutes either... I collapse on the field.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:05 pm

Ok since its a sports thread...

Ok now.. lets say DITKA VERSUS A HURRICANE..... and the hurricane is a level 4 emergency.... and.... ditka's legs broken

Bloodmist · Post by **Bloodmist** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:10 pm

Originally posted by RandomThug
Ok now.. lets say DITKA VERSUS A HURRICANE..... and the hurricane is a level 4 emergency.... and.... ditka's legs broken

Ehh? Wha'?

Tybaltus · Post by **Tybaltus** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:10 pm

Originally posted by Bloodmist
Contrary to soccer?

LOL, I'm not in a good enough shape to keep it up the entire 90 minutes either... I collapse on the field.

True...though, thats kicking a ball high, as opposed to throwing a ball high and accurately...I have better chance in soccer then in BB...I cant shoot in BB worth anything. I average 2 every 15 shots... Its 2 different skills entirely.

@Thug Have a problem with Ditka?

I think he was a good coach and a funny man. He did a decent job in CHI, and he was right about Ricky...Hes not so bad.

Bloodmist · Post by **Bloodmist** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 12:14 pm

Originally posted by Tybaltus
True...though, thats kicking a ball high, as opposed to throwing a ball high and accurately...I have better chance in soccer then in BB...I cant shoot in BB worth anything. I average 2 every 15 shots... Its 2 different skills entirely.

My basket capabilities are limited to waterboy status. I must avarage around 0 out of sixty

Originally posted by Tybaltus
@Thug Have a problem with Ditka? I think he was a good coach and a funny man. He did a decent job in CHI, and he was right about Ricky...Hes not so bad.

Oh. It was insider humor. I just thought Thug had gotten a(nother) mental brakedown

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:21 pm

Originally posted by Bloodmist
LOL. A sad situation indeed.

@Tyb, Soccer is very demanding physically too. Being on the field for 90 minutes with only one break is very exhausting. Especially for if you're a very hard working midfielder or forward. Might not get as many punches as a hockey player, but in hockey they've got many subs. Thereby not saying that it's not demanding. I know it is, I've played it.

That is very true. the only activity more physically demanding then Soccer is Genocide

Alos, Hockey is a very demanding sport, and it's something a lot of people don't give the players credit for. Hockey is one of the few sports where it is non stop movement for a whole 60 minutes. Granted that there are 30 second blurbs for stopped plays, and the 15 minutes between periods, but it still demands much. The NHL players have been deemed the most fit of all athletes in the world, because of what the sport requires, and considering there are people who are 40 years old playing (in Chelios' case, going on 42 I believe, and bidding for a new contract).

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 1:22 pm

geez no saturday night live fans here I guess...

"Ditka by twenty!"

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 4:28 pm

Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
3 years is a major difference. Taken into account that a soccer career is only 10-15 year max. it is a difference of about 20% to 30%, so it IS a major difference.

About Di Vaio....Van Der Vaart isn't Ajax' striker, but he is topscorer. About Kluivert....hard to tell why, but I have never considered him a real striker, more an attacking midfielder. But you can argue about that, I know. About Shevchenko....he was injured for a couple of months at the start of the season.

About scoring less and being a good striker:
a defender is a bad defender when strikers keep scoring against him right? And a keeper that fails everytime with high balls (like Seaman) is a bad keeper right? So a striker who plays in a good team, but doesn't score, is a bad striker. That's the main reason why he is on the pitch. So yeah, Gerd Müller is one of the greatest strikers ever.

The fact that goalkeepers probably have got "three more years" then outfield players in their body doesn't make the difference major.

Sorry to disappoint you, but actually Zlatan Ibrahimovic is Ajax topscorer so far. He has currently scored two goals more then Van Der Vaart. So in your eyes he (Zlatan) must be a pretty good striker....yes?!?

And Rivaldo and Schevchenko have played the same amount of games so far this season....so yes Rivaldo must currently be the better "striker" of them....(even though "Pippo" has scored more then both combined)...

Just to make sure we're talking about the same thing. When you say "striker" do you mean the same as "attacker"?!?
Scoring goals isn't everything. I'd rather have a striker in my team that maybe scored 3-4 goals a season and assisted to 25 then a striker that scored 15 goals and apart from that didn't do much else.
Strikers are involved a great deal in the game. They make space for their team-mates with runs, they hold the ball to make sure the midfield can also advance and take part in attacking. There's a lot more to playing up-front then scoring goals.

I think what we will see in the future are players that are a lot more flexible, even now perhaps. Nowadays when your team hasn't got the ball you defend with 11 men, the same goes for attacking, everyone takes part.

I've never liked David Seaman, but I wouldn't go so far as to calling him a bad keeper. If he was that bad I'm sure he wouldn't be playing for Arsenal and England. Arsene Wenger and Sven-Göran Eriksson would have played someone else in goal otherwise.

@Minerva & Bloodmist: Keep that "football-spirit" up. There shall only be one sport known as football....

End Result: (UEFA Cup)

Celtic vs Liverpool 1-1

Goals scored by Henrik Larsson and Emile Heskey.
Seems like the "Battle of Britain" still is an "open story".

Bloodmist · Post by **Bloodmist** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:03 am

Originally posted by Karembeu
@Minerva & Bloodmist: Keep that "football-spirit" up. There shall only be one sport known as football....

End Result: (UEFA Cup)

Celtic vs Liverpool 1-1

Goals scored by Henrik Larsson and Emile Heskey.
Seems like the "Battle of Britain" still is an "open story".

Now that was a good game!

Shock start by Celtic. The shot on the bar, after 17 seconds, was enough to make my heart jump in my throat, and when Larsson scored the first goal..... Weee!

I can't wait for the match in Liverpool

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:50 am

Originally posted by Karembeu

@Minerva & Bloodmist: Keep that "football-spirit" up. There shall only be one sport known as football....

End Result: (UEFA Cup)

Celtic vs Liverpool 1-1

Goals scored by Henrik Larsson and Emile Heskey.
Seems like the "Battle of Britain" still is an "open story".

For me, the best moment was nothing to do with the game. That You'll Never Walk Alone before the match was just fantastic!!

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:54 am

Originally posted by Minerva
For me, the best moment was nothing to do with the game. That You'll Never Walk Alone before the match was just fantastic!!

*realizing he has actually found Minerva online at the same time as himself, Waverly runs up and gives here big, wet kiss on the neck before running away*

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:55 am

Originally posted by Waverly
*realizing he has actually found Minerva online at the same time as himself, Waverly runs up and gives here big, wet kiss on the neck before running away*

B@stard!!

That's not a sport!

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:59 am

Originally posted by Minerva
B@stard!! That's not a sport!

It is if you chase after me and start a brawl in the stands over the incident.

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:00 am

Originally posted by Waverly
It is if you chase after me and start a brawl in the stands over the incident.

I won't chase you... Though, I don't mind the game of darts. Hope you don't mind to be a target.

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:06 am

Of course not... you can poke me anytime.

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:41 am

Well, I still think 3 years is a major difference, but I wont do the calculation again (20-30%).

When your club has a topgoalscorer, this doesn't automatically mean he is a good striker. Because every team HAS a topgoalscorer. So I really don't understand how you connect those 2 together. For instance, my club NAC has a topgoalscorer (Engelaar) who has scored only 8 times sofar. But strikers from other clubs have around 13-20 goals scored. So Engelaar isn't a good striker. Being clubtopgoalscorer and being a good striker isn't the same. So Zlatan is a bad striker (he still is). And BTW: Van Der Vaart has only played 10 games this season, and has scored 9 times. So I think you can consider him to be a better goalscorer than Zlatan. I know everyone here in Holland does.

I thought about the age thing with goalkeepers and strikers yesterday. Here's what could make this clearer:
Consider the age at which those topgoalkeepers played their first game for a topclub and do the same with the strikers.
For instance, Kluivert won the Champions League with Ajax when he was only 18 or 19 years old. He made his debut with Ajax. In that team also Van Der Sar played. He made his debut aswell and he was lik 23 or 24 years of age.

I think that count for other striker-goalkeepers aswell.

Karembeu · Post by **Karembeu** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:21 am

Originally posted by Rudar Dimble
Consider the age at which those topgoalkeepers played their first game for a topclub
and do the same with the strikers.
For instance, Kluivert won the Champions League with Ajax when he was only 18 or 19 years
old. He made his debut with Ajax. In that team also Van Der Sar played. He made his debut
aswell and he was lik 23 or 24 years of age.

Nothing strange at all about that.
Consider then that there are like 2 goalkeepers and 7 strikers in a team of 22 players (as with Inter Milan for example) that play each season and you'll see that obvious there is more room for strikers. Add the fact that playing in goal isn't as physically demanding as playing outfield and thus goalkeepers "last" at least three years if not even longer then outfield players.
Which means that strikers "wear and tear" faster, leaving room for younger talents while goalkeepers seem to be playing for ever.
I'm sure there are just as many good young goalkeepers out there (in proportion) as there are young strikers.

I feel as if we have swayed a bit from the original discussion.

The striker must be a multi-skilled player. Scoring quickly, attacking the defenders, hitting the target, setting up teammates to score, performance decisions in play, creating a scoring opportunity, shooting at goal. Even more of the skills needed to be a successful Striker are, making oneself available for midfield and defensive passes, awareness of field position, team playing among strikers, defensive aid from other players and one
touch control.....

Now do you see that experience is important for strikers.

btw - has anyone seen Fernando "el niño" Torres (plays for Atletico Madrid) He's born 1984 and he's such a talent that Atletico wouldn't even consider trading him for Ronaldo....

Rudar Dimble · Post by **Rudar Dimble** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:45 am

Now do you see that experience is important for strikers.
[/b]

No sorry. I also don't agree with your explanation you stated above (about goalkeepers ages. because, if a younger goalkeeper is better than the old one, they would replace him. but they don't, becaus younger goalkeepers aren't that good as the oldies, because of lack of expierence.) You keep referring to the football-part of strikers. But I am talking about scoring goals. NOTHING MORE!!! So no assist, no helping the defenders....just scoring goals.
As for an earlier post of you. There is a difference between a forward and a striker. A forward would be Bergkamp and a striker would be Vieri. See the difference? Another example. Rivaldo is a forward and Batistuta is a striker.
And I am talking about strikers, not forwards...

But, this is the last post I post about this subject, since we will never agree...even if we posted 10-40 posts after this.

My point of view is.....scoring goals (and ONLY scoring goals...so not assist etc.) is a quality that depends on sheer quality and NOT on expierence....