Ethical Question for a Paladin

DraySkullan · Post by **DraySkullan** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 8:32 am

Okay, my main NPC is a paladin. He's a war machine. But as I download and play mods, I made a decision I'm having questions about. I started investing a few points in Unlock and Disarm Traps.

Pro- My paladin was tired of being unable to access areas where he might be able to do good, as well as having to blow up traps in his own face. It only makes sense that someone would learn how to deal with these situations after being hurt, or being unable to do the most good. With these skills, he'd be able to do a much greater amount of good. And wouldn't have to resort to consorting with thieves.

Con-He's using the skills and tools of a thief.

Pro again-Does having a sword make you a murderer? Isn't it how the person uses a tool or skill that makes it good or bad, and not the tool or skill itself? Using those skills for good can't be a bad thing, can it?

Your thoughts please.

Just so you know, I play both sides regularly. My two main characters are Kylorin, my paladin... and Dray, my thief/swashbuckler.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:08 am

Ooooh... I like these questions.

My personal opinion, why not? Paladins are smart too, so why can't they be pro-active about a situation? It's not exactly like its illegal to know how to Unlock something, it's what locksmiths do, and they're not exactly scoundrels, well some of them maybe, but thats beside the point.

An extension to that is Disarm Traps. Why not? Noble organisations will always have need for the ability to remove traps. Just because this isn't "standard" practice doesn't mean that a Paladin should be hurt because something may be percieved as chaotic or evil, it doesn't go that way. It's just being smart.

The skills and tools of a thief isn't always bad, he isn't using them for bad purposes, he's not breaking into houses etc so there's nothing wrong technically with what he's doing, he's not being dishonest or stealing, he's tackling evil by using techniques it won't expect. Issue solved.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:33 am

I'm in agreance with our local paladin here.

I see no etical problem with a Pally being able to pick locks and disarm traps.
It is not as much the tools he has availble that makes him a paladin - it is how he uses them.

Pick lock and disarm traps are usefull skills for doing good.
Disarming traps set by evil people etc. - picking locks used for hiding evil people etc.

As long as you don't violate your chosen Diety ethos there is nothing to hinder for expanding skills as an instrument of goodness.

DraySkullan · Post by **DraySkullan** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 10:39 am

Great, it's good to have reassurance

Randolph Carter · Post by **Randolph Carter** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:12 am

I would have to respectfully disagree with the previous statements. Would a paladin learn the skills of a thief? I would say no. A paladin is a holy knight when put in the most simple terms. Paladin have a code of conduct that usually involves acting honorably always, especially towards one's enemies. At the risk of throwing out a generalized statement here, most paladins would look down on most thieves and their methods as being somewhat dishonorable. And being a Paladin is all about the honor, otherwise, you'd be a fighter.

Nippy is right, paladins are not dumb. Some will use dang near any method to fight and vanquish evil. As long as it is standup and honorable. If there is thief work to be done, I am inclined to think that a paladin would not do something "beneath their station," but would instead "sub it out" to their buddy the good rogue.

I struggled with taking ranks in OL and Disarm for my paladin and ultimately decided to remain faithful to the idea of my character and ran with Tomi for just about the entire game.

Thoughts?

R.Carter

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:33 am

I can understand your viewpoint Randolph, but I have to respectfully disagree.

Hope you don't mind.

If we look at the Code of Conduct that Paladin's follow, then we see that it says:

A Paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a Paladin's code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor, (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents.

Futher to that, a Paladin considers any adventure as a way to learn tactics. Who says that Paladin's have to learn standard military tactics? What we're talking about is a way to get into evil's backyard. Something that a Paladin should do and looks to do everytime they find evil around, they don't walk up to an evil persons dungeon, find it locked and say "Oh darn, guess I'll have to go because I don't want to offend a Code of Conduct!" when the evil person is torturing her friends in the dungeon below.

A Paladin swears to follow a code of conduct that is line with lawfulness and goodness, however, that code would have NOTHING to do with how a Paladin gets to a dungeon. Granted a Paladin cannot say "the needs of the few outweigh that of the many" and sacrifice a village to save a town, they'd search for a solution to the problem, which personally, is in the same vein as searching for an entrance into a dungeon and to avoid getting nailed by an acid trap.

I agree, a Paladin should rely on a Rogue, everyone should have one, they're useful little blighters

D) but you can't always have access so you use what you have at hand, and if that means offending a tiny aspect of the code that says a Paladin should not use a Rogues ways (which is personally a load of bull, as we all know, Rogue's can be as noble as a Paladin) then too bad. They're probably evil anyway and need to get their arse handed to them. That or Neutral, and no one cares about Neutrals anyway.

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:39 am

Originally posted by Randolph Carter
I would have to respectfully disagree with the previous statements. Would a paladin learn the skills of a thief? I would say no. A paladin is a holy knight when put in the most simple terms. Paladin have a code of conduct that usually involves acting honorably always, especially towards one's enemies. At the risk of throwing out a generalized statement here, most paladins would look down on most thieves and their methods as being somewhat dishonorable. And being a Paladin is all about the honor, otherwise, you'd be a fighter.

Sorry, I wanted to address this particuarly, but I missed the quote.

I'd say it's an accurate statement, you are right, most Paladin's would object to a Rogue's modus operandi, but when you mention honour, I feel it seems a bit odd. What does honour have to do with removing traps or being able to open a dungeon door? I'd agree if we were talking about sneak attacks, but I think that just opening doors or stopping a trap from triggering going against a code of honour seems a bit tight.

I don't think that that is dishonourable by any means, I mean, the damn person set the traps and locked the door in the first place! I think honour in combat I'd agree, you don't fight dirty or if an enemy yields then yes, a Paladin would act with honour, but I don't think that being able to find a safe route through a dungeon is particuarly dishonourable.

Randolph Carter · Post by **Randolph Carter** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:38 pm

Not much time now, so I will elaborate later.

Nippy, you mentioned that a paladins code calls for a respect of authority. as well as being in line with "lawfulness." How exactly is picking locks in line with those statements?

Offending a tiny bit of the code? Is that like kinda being a virgin? The code is what separates the paladin from all other fighter types. Without it, you are not a paladin.

That's the tough part of playing a paladin. To get the great abilities, you have to tow a hard line. The road to heaven is narrow and long, the road to hell is short and wide.

I still think that a paladin would view the skills of a footpad as something beneath their station. While it could be useful in some applications, there are still right and wrong ways of doing things. With a paladin, there are very few shades of grey.

R.Carter

DraySkullan · Post by **DraySkullan** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:56 pm

I have to jump in here. GOOD is the most important part of a paladin, not honor.

The paladin I play now was based originally on my cavalier from 1st edition AD&D. To a cavalier, honor is all. And I think this skewed my perceptions playing a paladin. To a paladin, good is what should matter the most, I would think.

I mean, a thief may pick locks and disable traps. They may also drink water. This doesn't mean drinking water is dishonorable.

It is what you use it is what is important. To pick a lock to steal from a family home is dishonorable. To pick a lock on a chest holding an antidote to a poison to save a life cannot be dishonorable, can it?

Nippy · Post by **Nippy** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:24 pm

I think Dray's hit the nail on the head Randolph, it depends on the circumstances that you use the skills for, right?

Maybe we agree to disagree, I'm quite happy to play a Paladin with no Rogue skills - I have done, and he had moral reasons for it, his father and mother were Rogues and he wanted to distance himself from the lifestyle - so thats why he took no abilities, whilst one I had was akin to a Holy Liberator (a character class that tries to stop slavery) so I gave him some stealth skills and lock picks for when he wanted to free people on the quiet. Alright, the Holy Liberator is portrayed as Chaotic Good, but mine was a bit different.

He had to be.

Randolph Carter · Post by **Randolph Carter** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:31 pm

It is not just Good that is important to a Paladin my friends. Order and Respect are important as well. But that is an entirely different point then where I think we started. Hey, I am pretty sure that I failed to make my point now that I read what I wrote again. Ain't this medium great! Please indulge a second attempt. I don't think that good or evil or even honor come into the equation as much as the act of picking a lock does.

The old Cavalier class (I remember it well, functional till -10 hits) was definately about honor being tops. But as I recall, Unearthed Arcana made the Paladin a subclass of Cav, which only makes sense as both are representative of knights.

To be a knight means that you are part of an order of things. You hold a rank in society. As such, you recognize that there are those that are above you, and those that are below you. Both groups have behavior patterns that a knight/paladin would probably find distasteful. There is also a behavior that is expected of a knight, especially one that is a Paladin. That is to act with honor in what you do because you are an example of rightousness. To do otherwise is not usually done, and never done without ramifications.

I am suggesting that a paladin (knight) would not pick locks because that is beneath their station. This is not to say they would turn around at the first locked door in a dungeon. A paladin on a mission is a force that will not be deterred without extraordinary measures. A knight/paladin also understands the concept of teamwork. Call in your specialist buddies, the rogue, the mage, whoever. Let them do what is to be expected of them.

I think that is what I am trying to say, but I sometimes struggle with making intelligible statements. Apologies in advance.

R.Carter

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:54 am

There is little dishonourable in picking locks and disarming traps, esepcially the latter.

Where is the honourless in being able to pick a lock so you can either get out of a dungeon, into a dungeon for what ever reason (to save little orphans for instance

)

The same with traps, if you notice a trap laying somewhere a little child could walk into it - then there is no dishonour in being able to disarm it (withouth haveing to set it of on your self

).

Any person (read character

) would pick up skills that help him do his job the best way he can.

Because some people using a tool for evil, doesn't mean it is evil. If it were the paladin wouldn't be able to use weapons, because it is also an instrument of evil. The skill listen? spot? etc.
All can be used and are used by evil (or neutral) - it doesn't charge the skill with said alignment.

Therefore I belive that it isn't knowing the skill that is dishonourable, but the way you use them that decide.

As for knowing the skill is being beneth ones station?
That is an indivudual interpretation for how one can roleplay a paladin. He needs not neasecarily feel "above" dirty/hard/common work or feel "above" other people.
You can roleplay a pios humble paladin that feels he constantly have to appraise his god and therefor feels he is less in terms of respect and honour then all around him etc.

I see no disagreement ethical between a paladin class and the possibility of being able to pick locks or disarm traps.
It is an individual roleplaying oppertunity, but ethical, I would say it is okay.
As long as you don't break your gods ethos or the law and use the skills for evil.

(now setting traps, I would not belive a paladin would do )

DraySkullan · Post by **DraySkullan** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 8:48 am

This has been a really good debate!

Xandax has a good point. There are alll types of paladins. Pompous ones, vengeful ones, humble ones, etc.

I have to say that in my opinion, associating with or hiring a known thief (I know, there are good versions of rogues out there too, but this is for arguments sake) would have less honor than knowing how to do the job yourself. In fact, I'd think a paladin would more likely seek to apprehend that person.