Is reality becoming a problem for people?

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:09 am

CE: *grits teeth* Oh boy... guess I fit in that category in some ways, or I feel left out in the cold because I'm not like alot of others, with my interests and beliefs.

And I said RESPONSIVE people, as in very responsive about the world around them. IOW, I was talking about the people that really listen to what happens around the entire world, and is somehow affected by it.

Responsible people never seemed to me like they were too down and dull. At least not so much to seem like they dread their position in their own life's workings.I hope this clears up anything.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:41 am

As you say @Antimatter, "intelligence" per se is only a small part of the factors that determine how a person would act and what capacity the person has to do different things. However, I just want to say that I in no way meant to target you and your post, my post was merely a general reflection from reading this thread and from what I've seen among friends, in school, and also in clinical work.

Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
CE: *grits teeth* Oh boy... guess I fit in that category in some ways, or I feel left out in the cold because I'm not like alot of others, with my interests and beliefs.

And I said RESPONSIVE people, as in very responsive about the world around them. IOW, I was talking about the people that really listen to what happens around the entire world, and is somehow affected by it.

Responsible people never seemed to me like they were too down and dull. At least not so much to seem like they dread their position in their own life's workings.I hope this clears up anything.

Oh, I've been in that situation as well, I felt really, really alienated from the world when I was a teenager...and took a lot of hard work to change that. I had difficulties finding people who shared my interests, my world view etc...however, I am a very social and extrovert personality type, so I met lots of people who shared my problems, and I noticed that most of them attributed their situation to being more intelligent, more analytical or more caring than others.

And yes, I meant the same as you with "responsible", ie in a global perspective. One course an individual can also be very responsible in a more local perspective, for instance towards his/her own society, family, job duties, etc.

However, again I want to say that my post was in no way meant to target you Antimatter or Galuf or any other particular person, what I wanted to discuss was the mythos I see in Western society around "intelligence". (Please see also my thread "Is intelligence overrated for an explanation of what I mean.) In our society there are a lot of common myths about intelligence, creativity and other features our society values, and one such myth is that intelligent/talented/creative/artistic people are more unhappy or more alieniated from their peers and other people in general. Another such common myth is that psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia, autism, depression or bipolar disorder are connected to high intelligence, special talents or artistic abilities. I really, really wish these myths were true since that would give me the feeling that the world was more "fair" - I really like the thought that people who suffer from a disabling condition such as autism for instance, would have been granted special talents that may at least partly make up for their problems. However...none of these myths are true. Whereas every individual has his/her own unique features, cogntive profile, personality profile, emotional and social patterns etc - there are simply no connections between talent/"intelligence" and any of those things.

I think everybody who feels "different" and alienated from their peer group/society, looks for an explanation for this. Some people unfortunately attributes this to themselves being bad or wrong in some way. Other attribute it to themselves being better that others in certain respects. This attributing is of course part of the process of learning to know yourself and identifying yourself as an individual, but often such attributions are not at all helpful in changing a situation if a person is not happy with the current life situation.

In my opinion, differences in personality traits play a much larger role in this than difference in intelligence. Another important factor, especially for children and young people, is that there are great varieties in maturity rate both in physiological, social, emotional and cogntive areas. What in psychology is called "Exceptionally gifted children", is mostly a question of those children having a cognitive system that matures a bit faster than for most other kids. These differences gradually disappear and become unimportant as the "Exceptionally gifted children" grow up, and in adult age they hardly play any role at all. The human brain has an incredible plasticity and flexibility.

Antimatter · Post by **Antimatter** » Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:27 pm

@CE no worries, I didn't feel targeted or anything. However I include myself in the category you described, so I felt I should respond.

And what you say about maturity may be the truth. I'm 18, but I've been told by many people who didn't know each other that I act more like someone in their mid-30's. So maybe that's just it. Like I said before, I think almost everyone can think just as well, they just don't bother to or they don't think about the right things.

Beowulf · Post by **Beowulf** » Sat Jun 21, 2003 2:44 am

Originally posted by C Elegans

Another important factor, especially for children and young people, is that there are great varieties in maturity rate both in physiological, social, emotional and cogntive areas. What in psychology is called "Exceptionally gifted children", is mostly a question of those children having a cognitive system that matures a bit faster than for most other kids. These differences gradually disappear and become unimportant as the "Exceptionally gifted children" grow up, and in adult age they hardly play any role at all. The human brain has an incredible plasticity and flexibility.

Fascinating. Does this mean that cognitive ability (g-factor?) is less variable among adults? Or that percieved differences in intelligence in adults are caused by factors such as education or 'training' of certain parts of the brain, like the nurse you mentioned in the intelligence thread? Is there no adult equivalent of 'exceptionally gifted children'?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Sun Jun 22, 2003 2:24 pm

Originally posted by Antimatter
And what you say about maturity may be the truth. I'm 18, but I've been told by many people who didn't know each other that I act more like someone in their mid-30's.

Yes, it's really a major factor, and it can be painful and lonely to be both ahead and late. It's not funny to be the only kid interested in social issues and global politics when all one's peers are still playing with toys...and neither is it funny to be the only person in the class who has not got visible signs of passing puberty, or still appreciating things others find childish as perhaps do those things in secret.

However, the differences in maturity rate does not matter later - an anecdotal example of this me (who started reading and writing at age 2 years 9 months and read my familiys encyclopedia at age 3 because there was really not other books to read since my parents aren't intellectual people) and a friend of mine who had school problems and could not read or write until he was 11. Today, we are both researchers in complex areas: he in philosophy, I in neuroscience. Quite funny I think.

Originally posted by Beowulf
Fascinating. Does this mean that cognitive ability (g-factor?) is less variable among adults? Or that percieved differences in intelligence in adults are caused by factors such as education or 'training' of certain parts of the brain, like the nurse you mentioned in the intelligence thread? Is there no adult equivalent of 'exceptionally gifted children'?

Yes, one can say that adjusting for age (ie comparing children of the same age), the variability is larger in children than in adults. This is mostly due to maturity rate, that's why the differences decrease when people grow up. It's also partly due to the much larger plasticity of the nervous system in children, a child who keeps practising something a lot will refine and shape its systems to suit the task more than adult can do. That's why you, if you want to really excel in something, in most cases you must start in childhood. However, some tasks are more suited than others to compensate for later in life, and semantic, verbal skills is one such thing whereas for instance musical skills are not. Just as it is almost impossible to learn to speak a new language without accent as an adult, it is also virtually impossible to learn to play a musical instrument to perfection if you started later than age 10.

There are differences in g-factor also in adults, perhaps as much as 2 or 3-fold in healthy adults - but those differences will to a much larger extent be smoothened out by learning, such as education and training, just as you suggest. The of "exceptionally gifted children" that psychologists use may vary slightly from country to country, but it usually included performing at the 5th Standart deviation over better than 99,999% of children of the same age at tests of cogntive functions (such as g-factor tests that, like the old IQ tests, consist of a set of tests of many different cognitive abiities), excelling extremely in some specific area (often music, maths or language) and developing a function/skill at half the age when children in average develop this function. There is really no adult equivalent to this since the definitions inherently includes an extreme difference from one's peers. An adults scoring at the 99.999 percentile on a cognitive test would not be so far away from the mean in absolute terms since the standard deviation is smaller in adults.

Let me also mention that I think it is very important that highly gifted children should not be expoited by the adult world. In one way I dislike terms like this and identifications of such children, but on the other hand these children actually have greater needs for stimulation than more normal kids, and there is a risk of them growing unhappy and even develop into "problem kids" if they are very understimulated.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 6:35 am

Very well said, CE. You've definitely gained your place in this topic more than once.

Of course, membership is free, so why should I have said that?

BTW, I responded to your PM about a week ago. Been so busy working weekends, and having my brother hog the internet like crazy. *grumbles*