After playing the game for a while, I have come up with the ultimate party.
I always play with 4 (more experience and more efficient). Here is the lineup:
Dwarf Barbarian
*wields hammer or morning star and shield
*wears heavy armor
*tons of hit points, damage resistance
Human Fighter/Thief
*wields halberd (currently Massive Halberd of Hate- best weapon ever, sneak attack does unbelievable amount of damage)
Aasimar Sorceroress
*mostly used to buff: haste, stoneskin, bull's strenth
*with eagle's splendor, charisma is usally over 25
and the MVP...
Human Monk 1 Ranger 1 Demarch of Mask 12
*this character is awesome!
*monk level gives speed and wisdom bonus to AC, ability to use monk items
*ranger level gives dual wield
*wields longsword and dagger which gives deflection bonus
*wisdom is 26 with items
*Mask kit gives mirror image and imp invis
*cleric spells enable this character to hold his own in melee combat
*this character has the highest AC of the group despite wearing no armor
I have yet to see a better party. This group is versatile and makes use of some of the best items in the game. All battles are quick and bloody, when properly prepared, no enemies have a chance.
I challenge anyone to come up with a better 4 person party. I guess I would admit that a paladin instead of the barbarian would be more powerful but I don't want a paly and an evil cleric in the same group.
I will also admit that sneak attacking with a halberd is not very realistic, but hey, if the game allows it, I'm doing it.
can you beat this party?
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lonely wolf
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Thanks for the reply.
I don't have any more parties at this time but I will say this:
If you have a cleric, the only deity to worship is Mask. I used to like Talos (and still do) because of the Death Armor spell and you have a cool Thor-like character. However, Mask gives the best bonus spells: Improved Invis, Mirror Image (who needs armor when you have these two spells). Most other gods just give you more of the spells that you already have.
Combining a Mask Cleric with a stealthy type takes full advantage of all of these strengths; take my Monk 1/Ranger 1/Mask Cleric X for example.
I think a Monk 1/Ranger X/Mask Cleric X would be awesome as well. You would still get wisdom bonus to AC and this character would be better in melee and would get cool Ranger spells.
Has anyone tried this? Let me know.
I don't have any more parties at this time but I will say this:
If you have a cleric, the only deity to worship is Mask. I used to like Talos (and still do) because of the Death Armor spell and you have a cool Thor-like character. However, Mask gives the best bonus spells: Improved Invis, Mirror Image (who needs armor when you have these two spells). Most other gods just give you more of the spells that you already have.
Combining a Mask Cleric with a stealthy type takes full advantage of all of these strengths; take my Monk 1/Ranger 1/Mask Cleric X for example.
I think a Monk 1/Ranger X/Mask Cleric X would be awesome as well. You would still get wisdom bonus to AC and this character would be better in melee and would get cool Ranger spells.
Has anyone tried this? Let me know.
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lightningpig
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If you have a cleric, the only deity to worship is Mask... Most other gods just give you more of the spells that you already have.
On the contrary, almost all the gods give you a diversity of spells that make for varied playing styles. For example, the Battleguard of Tempus gets the three pertinent Power Words (Conjuration), which can give you tremendous advantages in combat (not to mention they have free Weapon Focus: Axe). The Silverstar of Selune (aside from receiving those dorky moon spells) gets Elemental Legion (Druid) which, as I am finding out in my Druid solo game, is an extremely powerful spell. While I certainly think the Demarch of Mask is one of the more powerful cleric kits (go BBoD!), it is certainly not the only one to consider.
There are two problems I see with the Monk 1/Ranger X/Mask Cleric X build:
1. You will receive the 20% uneven-MC xp penalty (Unless X=1 for the ranger level)
2. 'cool Ranger spells'!? Aside from Entangle (only good at the start of the game and for slowing down your PC) and Smashing Wave, I don't really see how pumping Ranger up above level 1 will contribute to the character - rather I think it will dilute the power of the Demarch.
On the other hand, I like the concept of your M1/R1/DoMX - it certainly is very interesting.
Have you tried a Ranger1/RogueX? If you flank an opponent, with the speed that dual-wield provides you can also pile on the pain (crippling strike + power attack). Now think about using Lolth's Cruel Sting (Web + Poison) and Xvimian Fang of Despair (possible Petrification + 1/5 Emotion: Despair). That's damage + stength/dexterity/AC drain + immobilization.
Good points about the Monk 1/Ranger X/DMoM X character.
However, correct me if I am wrong but as long as the Ranger and Cleric are not more than 2 levels apart, there is no XP penalty (with a human or 1/2 elf of course).
You do raise a good point about Ranger spells, not much benefit there. From a strictly power aspect, this character would not be great but I think it might be fun from a role-playing standpoint.
I can't say enough about M1/R1/DMoM X. I am looking forward to when I run through in HoF mode. I will be using the Black Sash of the Raven and the Golden Heart of Character Name Sword. These two items which are available in Ch1 are going to make this character even more powerful (bonus to strength, bonus to dexterity- when you have no armor, dexterity bonuses can really make a difference, freedom of movement, haste to an already fast character, combat bonus, and immunity to many spells). In my current game, this guy now has the Thunderclap bracers that give an additional attack. Four attacks per round for a character with 15 total levels (13 of them cleric) is pretty nice.
Ranger 1/Rogue X is very good. I used a halfling and was wielding a longsword (not too realistic) and Lloth's Sting.
But, I would take my Fighter 4/Rogue 11 over that one. All of the rogue levels are not necessary and sneak attacking with a halberd is just too good to pass up.
However, correct me if I am wrong but as long as the Ranger and Cleric are not more than 2 levels apart, there is no XP penalty (with a human or 1/2 elf of course).
You do raise a good point about Ranger spells, not much benefit there. From a strictly power aspect, this character would not be great but I think it might be fun from a role-playing standpoint.
I can't say enough about M1/R1/DMoM X. I am looking forward to when I run through in HoF mode. I will be using the Black Sash of the Raven and the Golden Heart of Character Name Sword. These two items which are available in Ch1 are going to make this character even more powerful (bonus to strength, bonus to dexterity- when you have no armor, dexterity bonuses can really make a difference, freedom of movement, haste to an already fast character, combat bonus, and immunity to many spells). In my current game, this guy now has the Thunderclap bracers that give an additional attack. Four attacks per round for a character with 15 total levels (13 of them cleric) is pretty nice.
Ranger 1/Rogue X is very good. I used a halfling and was wielding a longsword (not too realistic) and Lloth's Sting.
But, I would take my Fighter 4/Rogue 11 over that one. All of the rogue levels are not necessary and sneak attacking with a halberd is just too good to pass up.
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lightningpig
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For the Human or Half-Elf Monk1/RangerX/DoMX, the penalty would still apply. The Favored Class of either race is whatever is highest, meaning that class would not be counted toward the computation of the penalty. Hence, if you had say, a M1/R10/DoM11, DoM11 would be the favored class and would not count toward the MC penalty and in effect you would have a M1/R10, and that would make the -20% penalty applicable.
The only escape from this is if there were a race whose favored class was Monk, therefore a M1/R10/DoM11 would count as a R10/DoM11 for purposes of calculation of the penalty, and in this case it would be OK.
What you say is true about the rogue, above 10 levels the only benefit for adding more levels would be increasing the Sneak Attack damage. It could work either way, you could still give the Rogue proficiency in Halberd and the additional sneak damage would more than make up for the lack of Weapon Specialization. The difference would be of course that the rogue does not have hit skills close to that of the fighter. But fighter/rogue makes for good role-play and I love fighters so I have no complaints about that.
It's still funny though imagining someone hiding in the shadows with an immensely long weapon - but like you said: the game allows it, so why not?
The only escape from this is if there were a race whose favored class was Monk, therefore a M1/R10/DoM11 would count as a R10/DoM11 for purposes of calculation of the penalty, and in this case it would be OK.
What you say is true about the rogue, above 10 levels the only benefit for adding more levels would be increasing the Sneak Attack damage. It could work either way, you could still give the Rogue proficiency in Halberd and the additional sneak damage would more than make up for the lack of Weapon Specialization. The difference would be of course that the rogue does not have hit skills close to that of the fighter. But fighter/rogue makes for good role-play and I love fighters so I have no complaints about that.
It's still funny though imagining someone hiding in the shadows with an immensely long weapon - but like you said: the game allows it, so why not?
Hey, is there any way to dual-wield with a summoned weapon in one hand such as Flame Blade or Black Blade of Disaster? That would be soo cool.
Back to the original subject, does anyone have any good 4 person parties? The key is to have characters that are versatile but I have learned that you do not want to dillute your spellcaster classes too much, you want those high level spells as soon as possible. Thieves and fighters can be diluted but you need one good tank. If I redid my previously mentioned party, I would have started the Aasimar Sorceror off with a level or 2 of Paladin- for Divine Grace and Aura of Courage (which means that she would have to be LG which means that my LE Monk/Ranger/Cleric would not make a very friendly traveling companion).
Back to the original subject, does anyone have any good 4 person parties? The key is to have characters that are versatile but I have learned that you do not want to dillute your spellcaster classes too much, you want those high level spells as soon as possible. Thieves and fighters can be diluted but you need one good tank. If I redid my previously mentioned party, I would have started the Aasimar Sorceror off with a level or 2 of Paladin- for Divine Grace and Aura of Courage (which means that she would have to be LG which means that my LE Monk/Ranger/Cleric would not make a very friendly traveling companion).
the best party ever? hardly.
no offense to you, you seem quite enthusiastic about your party, but your party itself is not even optimized...
the barbarian could have 4 levels of fighter to get weapon specialization, and possibly maximized attacks if you want...
your barbarian should also weild two-handed weapons, to take advantage of the likely high strength that you are giving him... plus an axe has a x3 critical...
dwarf is a good choice for race, though
the rest of the characters appear to just be more suited to yoru own particular playstyle...
I like the Mask deity, but imho there are better damage-dealing clerics out there... you already have a ftr/rogue, so the Demarch isnt needed for scouting... Talos, as you said, is very nice for an evil cleric... and Bane is a great choice as well if you like to dominate opponents and turn them against themselves...
multiclassing your rogue with fighter really cuts down on your sneak attack damage... but without knowing how you use this char as you go thru the game, I cannot make suggestions about possible better choices here...
also, it looks to me as if you are listing levels for the end of normal difficulty... multiclassing your cleric, you will lose out on some nicer spells... i.e. at cleric level 12, you dont have 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells at this level, you are missing things like Destruction, Fire Storm, Mass Heal, all the Symbol spells, as well as Mask domain spells Shades and Mass Invisibilty...
you cant go wrong with a sorceress, but if you use him/her primarily for buff spells, perhaps a bard would be a better fit, or a bard11/sorcX
is it a decent party? yes.
is it the ultimate party? certainly not.
does it matter as long as you have fun?
no offense to you, you seem quite enthusiastic about your party, but your party itself is not even optimized...
the barbarian could have 4 levels of fighter to get weapon specialization, and possibly maximized attacks if you want...
your barbarian should also weild two-handed weapons, to take advantage of the likely high strength that you are giving him... plus an axe has a x3 critical...
dwarf is a good choice for race, though
the rest of the characters appear to just be more suited to yoru own particular playstyle...
I like the Mask deity, but imho there are better damage-dealing clerics out there... you already have a ftr/rogue, so the Demarch isnt needed for scouting... Talos, as you said, is very nice for an evil cleric... and Bane is a great choice as well if you like to dominate opponents and turn them against themselves...
multiclassing your rogue with fighter really cuts down on your sneak attack damage... but without knowing how you use this char as you go thru the game, I cannot make suggestions about possible better choices here...
also, it looks to me as if you are listing levels for the end of normal difficulty... multiclassing your cleric, you will lose out on some nicer spells... i.e. at cleric level 12, you dont have 7th, 8th, or 9th level spells at this level, you are missing things like Destruction, Fire Storm, Mass Heal, all the Symbol spells, as well as Mask domain spells Shades and Mass Invisibilty...
you cant go wrong with a sorceress, but if you use him/her primarily for buff spells, perhaps a bard would be a better fit, or a bard11/sorcX
is it a decent party? yes.
is it the ultimate party? certainly not.
does it matter as long as you have fun?
Krysalyn,
Thanks for your input.
The reason I started this thread was to create a lively discussion over creating powerful and well balanced 4 person parties. So here goes:
Before I start, I like the quote "does it matter as long as you have fun?", that is the main objective after all. Well said.
On that note, I would have to say that my party is indeed optimized (at least for me anyway).
The Barbarian dwarf:
4 Fighter levels are overrated. If I did that, at this point I would not have damage resistance of 2 nor Greater Rage. I think that the Barbarian needs to go as high in levels as possible to really take advantage of the class. Now I needed 1 character to wield a shield and one to do blugeoning damage and this is the one to do both. 2 Handed weapons are already covered by the Fi/Ro. Blunt weapons are needed especially early in the game, the morningstar that did fire damage was invaluable. In my HoF run, this character will use the improved Valorfoe (a hammer that does d10 and causes fear, now thats a hammer). I will admit that this character is in a rut weapon-wise, using a boring old hammer +4.
Fighter/Rogue:
Here 4 Fighter levels are perfect. I would rather sacrifice the sneak attack damage to do extra damage on every hit (weapon specialization). Besides, I don't really worry much about damage when using the Massive Halberd of Hate.
Monk/Ranger/Demarch of Mask:
Mirror Image, Imp Invis, Phantom Blade: you can take down a whole horde of undead.
Sorceress:
I would say about only 1/2 of spells are used to buff, I do hate to rest so I usually don't cast if I don't have to. I use this character more to weaken the enemy with Fireball and Cloudkill and then finish them off with the rest of the gang. Best spell: Dominate Person. When you have a small party, a few extra bodies can really make a difference.
Party weaknesses:
*Barbarian and Fi/Ro have weak will saves- if enemy spellcasters had any clue, this party could go down fast
*Cleric has low Cha, poor undead turning ability
*Sorc is also the diplomat so skill points have to be spread thin
Every party has weaknesses, the challenging part is covering up those weaknesses and attacking with your strengths.
Thanks for your input.
The reason I started this thread was to create a lively discussion over creating powerful and well balanced 4 person parties. So here goes:
Before I start, I like the quote "does it matter as long as you have fun?", that is the main objective after all. Well said.
On that note, I would have to say that my party is indeed optimized (at least for me anyway).
The Barbarian dwarf:
4 Fighter levels are overrated. If I did that, at this point I would not have damage resistance of 2 nor Greater Rage. I think that the Barbarian needs to go as high in levels as possible to really take advantage of the class. Now I needed 1 character to wield a shield and one to do blugeoning damage and this is the one to do both. 2 Handed weapons are already covered by the Fi/Ro. Blunt weapons are needed especially early in the game, the morningstar that did fire damage was invaluable. In my HoF run, this character will use the improved Valorfoe (a hammer that does d10 and causes fear, now thats a hammer). I will admit that this character is in a rut weapon-wise, using a boring old hammer +4.
Fighter/Rogue:
Here 4 Fighter levels are perfect. I would rather sacrifice the sneak attack damage to do extra damage on every hit (weapon specialization). Besides, I don't really worry much about damage when using the Massive Halberd of Hate.
Monk/Ranger/Demarch of Mask:
Mirror Image, Imp Invis, Phantom Blade: you can take down a whole horde of undead.
Sorceress:
I would say about only 1/2 of spells are used to buff, I do hate to rest so I usually don't cast if I don't have to. I use this character more to weaken the enemy with Fireball and Cloudkill and then finish them off with the rest of the gang. Best spell: Dominate Person. When you have a small party, a few extra bodies can really make a difference.
Party weaknesses:
*Barbarian and Fi/Ro have weak will saves- if enemy spellcasters had any clue, this party could go down fast
*Cleric has low Cha, poor undead turning ability
*Sorc is also the diplomat so skill points have to be spread thin
Every party has weaknesses, the challenging part is covering up those weaknesses and attacking with your strengths.
Originally posted by J Swan
Krysalyn,
Thanks for your input.
The reason I started this thread was to create a lively discussion over creating powerful and well balanced 4 person parties. So here goes:
Before I start, I like the quote "does it matter as long as you have fun?", that is the main objective after all. Well said.
On that note, I would have to say that my party is indeed optimized (at least for me anyway).
The Barbarian dwarf:
4 Fighter levels are overrated. If I did that, at this point I would not have damage resistance of 2 nor Greater Rage. I think that the Barbarian needs to go as high in levels as possible to really take advantage of the class. Now I needed 1 character to wield a shield and one to do blugeoning damage and this is the one to do both. 2 Handed weapons are already covered by the Fi/Ro. Blunt weapons are needed especially early in the game, the morningstar that did fire damage was invaluable. In my HoF run, this character will use the improved Valorfoe (a hammer that does d10 and causes fear, now thats a hammer). I will admit that this character is in a rut weapon-wise, using a boring old hammer +4.
Fighter/Rogue:
Here 4 Fighter levels are perfect. I would rather sacrifice the sneak attack damage to do extra damage on every hit (weapon specialization). Besides, I don't really worry much about damage when using the Massive Halberd of Hate.
Monk/Ranger/Demarch of Mask:
Mirror Image, Imp Invis, Phantom Blade: you can take down a whole horde of undead.
Sorceress:
I would say about only 1/2 of spells are used to buff, I do hate to rest so I usually don't cast if I don't have to. I use this character more to weaken the enemy with Fireball and Cloudkill and then finish them off with the rest of the gang. Best spell: Dominate Person. When you have a small party, a few extra bodies can really make a difference.
Party weaknesses:
*Barbarian and Fi/Ro have weak will saves- if enemy spellcasters had any clue, this party could go down fast
*Cleric has low Cha, poor undead turning ability
*Sorc is also the diplomat so skill points have to be spread thin
Every party has weaknesses, the challenging part is covering up those weaknesses and attacking with your strengths.
the key there is that you said it was optimized for *you*
and that might not be the case for others...
I just have a difficult time with you challenging anyone to come up with a better party, saying that yours is the ultimate 4 person party and you have never seen better... but now saying that it is optimal only for yourself...
what is the criteria for comparison? you mentioned ignoring the fact that sneak attacking with a halbard is somewhat unrealistic, but yet you also say that you dont want to put a paly in with an evil cleric...
are you powergaming your stats?
you listed levels in your initial post which appeared to coincide with normal difficulty... but now you mention HoF... imho, different tactics are needed for optimal success in each... some things that work in normal mode are not very successful in HoF, and vice versa...
I agree that 4 levels of fighter are generally overrated... but I tend to feel that applies to giving ftr4 to clerics, druids, bards, rogues, etc...for a front line tank that spends the majority of its time standing toe to toe with enemies, I think that ftr4 is a great benefit to the character... a little extra damage with each hit, and it opens up the maximized attack feat, which can be very useful in important battles against very tough opponents...
I see your point about missing out on some of the class specific barb advantages... and so for normal difficulty perhaps not taking 4 ftr levels is the best... it is more personal preference in that case, imho... the 2 dmg reduction does not make that big of a difference early on, and if you look at a level cap char (possible after completing HoF) the 4 fighter levels causes you to miss out on *only* 1 point of dmg reduction...
now, I disagree on the 4 ftr levels being given to the rogue, but it all depends on how the char is used... if it is often used in close quarters melee, than the ftr4 is likely a benefit... if the rogue is used primarily for scouting and sneak attacking, I think you are better off without the ftr levels and going all rogue. I personally would prefer an extra 1d6 sneak attack dmg rather than an extra pt of dmg each hit... but that is due to the way I play my rogue
also, you mentioned that your barb is using blunt/shield, while your rogue uses the two-handed weapon... I personally feel that this is not the best distribution of weapons/dmg dealing methods... i.e. your tank should naturally have high strength, and your rogue naturally high dex... the primary benefit of using a two-handed weapon for melee is that it uses the 1.5 Str modifier... i.e. your bonus dmg from your Str stat is counted 1.5 times in your dmg calculations, whereas a one-handed weapon gets only a 1x Str bonus applied... so, to get the most out of your current distribution, you have to give your rogue high strength to take advantage of using a two-handed weapon... if you also want this rogue to still be your scout and disarm traps and pick locks, than a high Dex is needed as well... this doesnt leave many stat points for Con/Wis/Int/Cha and all this time the high strength of your barb is not being used to its full potential
and also remember that you can get weapon focus or specialization in more than one weapon type... and that you have 4 different weapon slots available, which can be swapped in battle fairly easily... i.e. your barb can have a two-handed axe in teh first weapon slot, a throwing axe plus shield in the second, a hammer plus shield in the third, and a throwing hammer and shield in the fourth... this gives you a choice of slashing or bludgeoning dmg, both melee and as a thrown weapon, all from one character, who is adaptable to the opponent that he is facing.
getting the cleric, it appears as if 3 of your 4 party members are designed primarily for melee combat... fyi, this will be difficult in HoF. the cleric build sounds great now, but once again, this will cause you to advance more slowly in your spell progression... and keep in mind that the role of your cleric may change from melee now to more of a support or artillary role later in teh game, or in HoF... and if you want to build this character with HoF in mind, the monk and rngr levels might not be all that useful in the end...
the will saves of the barb and rogue can be increased with some feats if that is desired.
imho, turning undead is not that great of an ability for this game, and the stat pts are better spent elsewhere rather than in Cha just for this purpose...
overall, I can only guess that the party is optimized, for your style of play...
I can definitely state that it is not the best four person party for my own various playstyles...
and I would also like to mention once again that HoF is sometimes a completely different ballgame, and imho, this party you described will have a very tough go of it in HoF.
also, briefly, here is what I would consider a very strong 4 person party for HoF mode
ftr4/barbX - some dwarf race, will use a two-handed axe and probably hammers as a backup weapon, all stat increases will go into Str, and with starting Con at 20, this char will have quite a few hit points at the end... his role will be as the party tank, taking and dishing out damage in melee, and keeping opponents off of the rest of the party
cleric single class - pick whatever domain you personally prefer... I generally like direct damage dealing clerics, so I like Talos, but others are great as well... Oghma has the symbol spells as domain spells... etc. this character will be the party healer, support with various buffs, as well as tactical support if desired... this character might also be used as a summoner, or an artillary caster, etc. the cleric is also likely available as a backup or secondary tank, particularly early in the game, as long as high Con is given
sorc single class - probably choose drow for the Cha bonus and spell resistance... the ECL might be an annoyance early on, but the exp book could offset this... or the rest of the party can be ECL as well... this char is walking death for the opponents once she gets to high enough level... a few buff spells may be chosen, but this char will primarily choose the most devastating arcane spells, and particularly later in normal and in HoF mode, this character might be getting almost all of the party kills...
4th char - this can actually be whatever you want... customize it to your own personal tastes... choose a single class monk to get the amazing higher level monk abilities... choose a druid for additional healing, as well as more direct-dmg spells than a cleric, and the ability to shapechange and join in melee... choose another sorc for an insane amount of arcane spellpower... choose a rngr1rogueX sneak attack expert/mage killer, can also be used as a decoy to gather up opponents for the sorc to bombard the area with spells (rogue has good chance to avoid the spells' effects)... or possibly a bard11/sorcX, to get access to all of the bard songs, and then get some additional firepower via sorc levels... put whatever your favorite class is here
ftr4/barbX - some dwarf race, will use a two-handed axe and probably hammers as a backup weapon, all stat increases will go into Str, and with starting Con at 20, this char will have quite a few hit points at the end... his role will be as the party tank, taking and dishing out damage in melee, and keeping opponents off of the rest of the party
cleric single class - pick whatever domain you personally prefer... I generally like direct damage dealing clerics, so I like Talos, but others are great as well... Oghma has the symbol spells as domain spells... etc. this character will be the party healer, support with various buffs, as well as tactical support if desired... this character might also be used as a summoner, or an artillary caster, etc. the cleric is also likely available as a backup or secondary tank, particularly early in the game, as long as high Con is given
sorc single class - probably choose drow for the Cha bonus and spell resistance... the ECL might be an annoyance early on, but the exp book could offset this... or the rest of the party can be ECL as well... this char is walking death for the opponents once she gets to high enough level... a few buff spells may be chosen, but this char will primarily choose the most devastating arcane spells, and particularly later in normal and in HoF mode, this character might be getting almost all of the party kills...
4th char - this can actually be whatever you want... customize it to your own personal tastes... choose a single class monk to get the amazing higher level monk abilities... choose a druid for additional healing, as well as more direct-dmg spells than a cleric, and the ability to shapechange and join in melee... choose another sorc for an insane amount of arcane spellpower... choose a rngr1rogueX sneak attack expert/mage killer, can also be used as a decoy to gather up opponents for the sorc to bombard the area with spells (rogue has good chance to avoid the spells' effects)... or possibly a bard11/sorcX, to get access to all of the bard songs, and then get some additional firepower via sorc levels... put whatever your favorite class is here
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lightningpig
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I purposely didn't reply to the 'best' party portion of this thread because I feel that there is no real way to measure one party against the other - and that existing criteria is wildly open to bias (according to individual style).
How would you qualify a party being better than the other:
The length of the major battles?
The amount of damage dealt over a period of time?
The amount of damage received?
Game clock management?
I think it should be enough that a good party will survive in the Heart of Fury whereas a subpar party would not. Beyond that, it is open to interpretation - and there is little hope of everyone coming to an agreement.
@Swan
You cannot dual-wield magically created weapons. If you notice when you cast them, they take over your weapon slots, hence if you cast one after the other it would just erase the former. It would be very interesting if you could do it, though (except that the magic swords are counted as large swords).
A difficulty that may arise with your party is in the final battle. Your tank uses bludgeoning weapons, and Isair and Madae are pretty much immune to that - and the tank is the only one who can stand toe to toe with the twins.
Better than Direhammer Valorfoe is Xvim's Brutal Impact (+5 to Str, Acid Burst), since in HoF most enemies make their saves. And it is +5 to the Direhammer's +3.
@Krysalyn
As a matter of personal preference, I prefer to keep my tank as a pure Fighter - mostly for the feats. The tradeoff is damage tolerance for versatility and in my opinion, with a good supporting crew, the difference in HP can be mitigated by a well-chosen set of buffs. In fact, I never mix fighter in with my other classes - it's usually the other way around: a level of Ranger for the 'free' dual wield, or a level of Paladin to boost the saves, or a level of Barbarian for the speed. I think that feat versatility is a bigger benefit to the Fighter than Specialization. But I do like specialization, it's just that I never mix in fighter levels just to get them - I feel that if I wanted to specialize, I might as well go with a pure Fighter - since the other classes have few enough feats to begin with, it would be tricky to allocate a feat for specializaiton.
But as we can all agree, it's a matter of style.
How would you qualify a party being better than the other:
The length of the major battles?
The amount of damage dealt over a period of time?
The amount of damage received?
Game clock management?
I think it should be enough that a good party will survive in the Heart of Fury whereas a subpar party would not. Beyond that, it is open to interpretation - and there is little hope of everyone coming to an agreement.
@Swan
You cannot dual-wield magically created weapons. If you notice when you cast them, they take over your weapon slots, hence if you cast one after the other it would just erase the former. It would be very interesting if you could do it, though (except that the magic swords are counted as large swords).
A difficulty that may arise with your party is in the final battle. Your tank uses bludgeoning weapons, and Isair and Madae are pretty much immune to that - and the tank is the only one who can stand toe to toe with the twins.
Better than Direhammer Valorfoe is Xvim's Brutal Impact (+5 to Str, Acid Burst), since in HoF most enemies make their saves. And it is +5 to the Direhammer's +3.
@Krysalyn
As a matter of personal preference, I prefer to keep my tank as a pure Fighter - mostly for the feats. The tradeoff is damage tolerance for versatility and in my opinion, with a good supporting crew, the difference in HP can be mitigated by a well-chosen set of buffs. In fact, I never mix fighter in with my other classes - it's usually the other way around: a level of Ranger for the 'free' dual wield, or a level of Paladin to boost the saves, or a level of Barbarian for the speed. I think that feat versatility is a bigger benefit to the Fighter than Specialization. But I do like specialization, it's just that I never mix in fighter levels just to get them - I feel that if I wanted to specialize, I might as well go with a pure Fighter - since the other classes have few enough feats to begin with, it would be tricky to allocate a feat for specializaiton.
But as we can all agree, it's a matter of style.
Originally posted by lightningpig
@Krysalyn
As a matter of personal preference, I prefer to keep my tank as a pure Fighter - mostly for the feats. The tradeoff is damage tolerance for versatility and in my opinion, with a good supporting crew, the difference in HP can be mitigated by a well-chosen set of buffs. In fact, I never mix fighter in with my other classes - it's usually the other way around: a level of Ranger for the 'free' dual wield, or a level of Paladin to boost the saves, or a level of Barbarian for the speed. I think that feat versatility is a bigger benefit to the Fighter than Specialization. But I do like specialization, it's just that I never mix in fighter levels just to get them - I feel that if I wanted to specialize, I might as well go with a pure Fighter - since the other classes have few enough feats to begin with, it would be tricky to allocate a feat for specializaiton.
But as we can all agree, it's a matter of style.
yes, exactly a matter of style...
I personally feel that a pure fighter, or one with only a single class of something mixed in, is too "vanilla" for my tastes... I agree that the feats are nice, but with a pure fighter, I feel that I would have more feats available than feats that are actually useful for my character...
many of my parties are designed with an eye towards HoF, so that is probably the primary motivation for my thinking... i.e. going thru HoF and getting to the level cap for your char, you get so many feats normally that the extra ones granted to the fighter start to get used for things which I dont think really add that much to the character, and his contribution to the party...
for normal difficulty, perhaps it would have quite the benefit, as the pure fighter would get quite a few more feats that would all go to useful selections by the end of normal...
I also "like" the class benefits that are obtained with high levels in non-fighter classes more than I "like" the multitude of feats available with the pure fighter... i.e. things like tireless rage/dmg red for the barb, dmg red/etc for the monk, sneak attack for the rogue, etc for me personally I really enjoy the fact that various members of my party obtain abilities that noone else in the party can get... whereas most feats are available for any character to take...
but, again, I agree, what it really comes down to is personal tastes and preferences...
I guess I am at a little bit of a disadvantage, having not played HoF mode. I do know what items are available but that is it. I might start playing it, get my butt kicked and have to go back to the drawing board.
I picked my party to take advantage of the game I was playing and with an eye on the future (HoF).
I would have to admit that in the long run (HoF), a Ftr4/Barb X makes more sense than in the regular game. Along those lines, I would agree that pure fighter loses its advantages in the long run, you've got more feats than you know what to do with. Another small bonus for the Barb, Wilderness Lore. This gives you something to do with all of your skill pts. I would pick Paladin over pure fighter, you do have to commit some ability points to charisma and wisdom but I think the special abilities more than make up for this and turn undead is actually useful due to high Cha.
@Krysalyn: where did you find out that 2H weapons give 1.5x strength damage modifier as opposed to 1x for one handed. I must have missed that.
In defense of the Fi/Rogue- he's got high str (24 w/ items) and dex (20 w/items) to take advantage of the halberd and thieving skills. I use this character as a scout and melee. When I feel lazy, I just put him in stealth mode and have him clear out whole areas by himself such as in the Yuan-ti temple. 2-3 hits is all it takes to bring one down. Boots of speed are essential, sneak attack, run away, sneak attack, done. I would have to say the only way to really take advantage of the sneak attack ability is to have some fighter levels and high strength. I used to combine rogue with wizard, this gives you lots of skill points from having high Int. But I found that this character was not very powerful, once again you are diluting the spell caster and not taking full advantage of the sneak attack.
My Monk 1/Ranger 1/ Demarch of Mask is much more powerful than a pure cleric. AC is better than a character wearing magical plate and a shield and with a few prep spells he can go toe to toe with any fighter. Throw in speed and the ability to use monk items, and it is no contest. HoF will only make things better. As I said, that Golden Heart of Charcter Name sword is going to look pretty good in one hand and possibly Baron Sulo's hook in the other.
Of course we will never agree on what the best party is but I find it interesting to see what other people's views are on creating 4 person parties. Even though I am happy with my current party, I am always thinking about the next one. I like the idea of 2 sorcs in one party. 2 sorcs, ftr/cleric and ftr/thief- that would be fun.
One character I am not seeing much of is the ftr/sorc. Back in BGII everyone was all about the kensai/mage. Any ideas on how to fully optimize the ftr/sorc? Stats would have to be pretty evenly distrubuted, str, dex, cha, and a little intelligence for skill points and ID purposes. Right now I am thinking 2H weapon is best, Greatsword as primary weapon and Staff as a backup. I would use this character mainly to self buff and engage in melee or cast damage spells and then bust out the sword. For supporting cast I would go with ftr/rogue or ranger 1/rogue x, barbarian, and Demarch of Mask.
I picked my party to take advantage of the game I was playing and with an eye on the future (HoF).
I would have to admit that in the long run (HoF), a Ftr4/Barb X makes more sense than in the regular game. Along those lines, I would agree that pure fighter loses its advantages in the long run, you've got more feats than you know what to do with. Another small bonus for the Barb, Wilderness Lore. This gives you something to do with all of your skill pts. I would pick Paladin over pure fighter, you do have to commit some ability points to charisma and wisdom but I think the special abilities more than make up for this and turn undead is actually useful due to high Cha.
@Krysalyn: where did you find out that 2H weapons give 1.5x strength damage modifier as opposed to 1x for one handed. I must have missed that.
In defense of the Fi/Rogue- he's got high str (24 w/ items) and dex (20 w/items) to take advantage of the halberd and thieving skills. I use this character as a scout and melee. When I feel lazy, I just put him in stealth mode and have him clear out whole areas by himself such as in the Yuan-ti temple. 2-3 hits is all it takes to bring one down. Boots of speed are essential, sneak attack, run away, sneak attack, done. I would have to say the only way to really take advantage of the sneak attack ability is to have some fighter levels and high strength. I used to combine rogue with wizard, this gives you lots of skill points from having high Int. But I found that this character was not very powerful, once again you are diluting the spell caster and not taking full advantage of the sneak attack.
My Monk 1/Ranger 1/ Demarch of Mask is much more powerful than a pure cleric. AC is better than a character wearing magical plate and a shield and with a few prep spells he can go toe to toe with any fighter. Throw in speed and the ability to use monk items, and it is no contest. HoF will only make things better. As I said, that Golden Heart of Charcter Name sword is going to look pretty good in one hand and possibly Baron Sulo's hook in the other.
Of course we will never agree on what the best party is but I find it interesting to see what other people's views are on creating 4 person parties. Even though I am happy with my current party, I am always thinking about the next one. I like the idea of 2 sorcs in one party. 2 sorcs, ftr/cleric and ftr/thief- that would be fun.
One character I am not seeing much of is the ftr/sorc. Back in BGII everyone was all about the kensai/mage. Any ideas on how to fully optimize the ftr/sorc? Stats would have to be pretty evenly distrubuted, str, dex, cha, and a little intelligence for skill points and ID purposes. Right now I am thinking 2H weapon is best, Greatsword as primary weapon and Staff as a backup. I would use this character mainly to self buff and engage in melee or cast damage spells and then bust out the sword. For supporting cast I would go with ftr/rogue or ranger 1/rogue x, barbarian, and Demarch of Mask.