Dear Buck, Since you asked

Post by **BuckGB** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 7:09 am

First of all, thanks to Scayde for addressing my questions in the previous Gruntboy thread. I appreciate all the feedback here in this post, and have read through it in its entirety.

I can totally understand and respect the fact that many of you had a relationship with Gruntboy, both here on the forums and in real life. I don't mean to sound unsympathetic or anything, but because of this, I do believe that there is a bit of favoritism that is being shown. If a brand new member hurled the insult that Gruntboy did on their first post, I would ban them without a single warning, and I'd bet that I'd have everyone's full support. Gruntboy has contributed a lot to these forums, and banning him is not an easy thing to do. However, he did have a strong warning previously and has been posting in a grey area for quite some time.

Originally posted by Enchantress
It is my personal opinion that swearing and profanity are part of life and using those words is really no big deal.

I firmly believe that the allowance of profanity, especially the worst vulgarities (you know the ones), can only cause harm to a forum. It reflects a negative image to any newcomer that may be considering registering as a member of the forum. In addition to standard members, quite a few of the game developers themselves come and go to these forums. For example, several members of the BioWare team are registered here and new developers (some of which are unbeknownst to many of you) continue to sign up (Activision's Shane DeFreest being the latest). What sort of image does it portray if members are allowed to post as Gruntboy did?

Originally posted by thantor3
In the current situation, that two moderators would chose to be involved in so public a quarrel that led to inappropriate action, I feel, speaks to either poor guidelines for moderator behavior or a breakdown in internalizing those guidelines.

I agree with this, and have addressed the issue with Fable. I do believe that moderators should be able to post in the forum that they moderate (how boring would it be to read all the posts if they couldn't even comment?), but when a thread starts to go downhill or if a member starts directing some negative responses toward a moderator, they should refrain from posting further and only patrol the thread for potential problems. I know it is difficult not to be able to respond to comments that may be directed at you, but it's part of a moderator's duty to keep the peace - not keep the snowball rolling. This incident will institute some changes in how I would like the moderators to behave, definitely.

Originally posted by thantor3
Being busy does not excuse this responsibility. Doctors are tremendously busy in their practices, but that would hold absolutely no weight legally or ethically if a patient was injured neglectfully during the course of care.

This really isn't an equal comparison, and doesn't take into consideration a lot of factors. Doctors get paid a considerable amount for their career and the responsibilities that come with it. In addition, you will never see an entire hospital that is completely administered by one doctor - a doctor who does all secretarial work, all pharamaceutical work, every X-ray, every emergency, every surgery, and still has time to mop the floors at night. GameBanshee is a huge beast to manage, and goes far beyond just the posting of content. Over the years, this task has continued to grow bigger, and my time has grown even smaller than it once was. At this point, I rarely even have time to play a game, which (of course) is my favorite pasttime.

Originally posted by Chanak
The Forum Rules are very clear and concise, posted above in a sticky for all of us to read whenever we desire. At some point during our time here in SYM, most of us have voiced our support of these rules. Why change that now, especially when a member so flagrantly violated them? That the member in question happens to be a friend of mine does indeed make it more difficult for me to remain objective, true....but that's where I "suck it up and drive on." How can we, in good conscience, be willing to subject others to the rule of law, but strive to spare either ourselves or those we care about from it? If it doesn't apply equally to us all, then do away with it - it's useless.

I totally agree with this paragraph. In addition, I do feel that moderators should be held to an even greater standard, due to the fact that they are a model of what can and should be done here in the forums. Gruntboy knew what he was posting was blatantly wrong, yet he did it anyway, regardless of his moderator status and that he had received a warning previously.

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:19 am

Scayde, for all the friendly PMs you send me you really don't know me at all and you often misunderstand the point I'm making. I am very direct and very honest and I am very unhappy with all of this. I actually don't mean to be rude to anyone but can't you see that?

\

I have neither the time nor inclination to engage in the vicious mud slinging that has been going on here...

However.. I find this comment is blatantly unfair and unnecessary...
Scayde is one of the warmest, most tolerant, most accepting, and most understanding people on this board.....

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:23 am

Originally posted by dragon wench
\

I have neither the time nor inclination to engage in the vicious mud slinging that has been going on here...

However.. I find this comment is blatantly unfair and unnecessary...
Scayde is one of the warmest, most tolerant, most accepting, and most understanding people on this board.....

HOW is that mud slinging? HOW?

Have you not read anything I've said? There is NO mud being slung. I am responding to something that was said to me and I didn't start this. OK, I posted something stupid about Fable, Minerva saw it and I deleted it. That's it. I wasn't attacking Scayde at all, by what I said earlier, I was commenting on our communication, or the lack of it. A comment is not an attack. Should I not have responded to what she said about me that I wanted to comment on?

Edit: Please no-one else reply to anything I've said or tried to say today, as I'm going now. I've misunderstood some people and I am getting misunderstood. I was actually trying to make an effort in this thread - clearly that's not coming across. I keep editing this post because I'm paranoid that someone is going to think I'm implying something that I'm not implying!

Blimey, I've had enough of this now. What's the point.

Please - if anyone else wants to slag me off, do it in a PM and not a thread.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 9:35 am

I don't think anything else needs to be said in this thread lest we get another person banned. Perhaps we should close it?

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:02 am

Originally posted by Tybaltus

When one person offends, you cannot make exceptions based on prior credits. Yes Gruntboy is popular, but 3 warnings? I have been told that AR never got a warning before his ban...where was the outrage then? Ive never gotten a warning before...and I sometimes let emotion guide me, so it must be somewhat hard to get a warning.

The way I see it, its the straw that broke the camel's back. There can only be so many warnings before warnings lose all meaning. 3 warnings? I thought we'd only get 1.

Hmmm Considering I warned him twice that I can think of about using profanity....a warning is a warning whether it comes from Buck or one of the mods.

T'lainya · Post by **T'lainya** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:09 am

Civilty please!

Everyone please settle down. If you have an issue with someone take it to pms.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 4:29 pm

Oh my...now I've read the thread which lead to Grunt being stripped of his moderator status. I was amazed to see the discussion - I thought it was some a political issue that led to the conflict, but a discussion about food?

I really, really think everybody should make an effort not to take things so personal and not to overinterpret other people's posts.

However, I still don't know what led to his banning other than what Buck posted in the other thread, so forgive me if I have misunderstood something. Regardless of the events that led to the banning, these are my general opinions:

1. This message board is a service that is granted us by Buck's effort. We are all here by choice, and we have agreed to follow the forum rules. If we don't like it here, we can go elsewhere. Since this is Buck's board and it exists merely because of all the time and effort he puts into it, I also think it is his choice what atmosphere should be set here. Personally I don't care the slightest about swear words, but as I pointed out elsewhere, there are cultural differences in how swearing is viewed, and this is an international board. Also, I do understand Buck's point of giving a negative impression on new users - a lot of swearing especially directed to other members rather than general - can give an aggressive and hostile impression. There is IMO a huge difference between saying "I'm so tired of my bloody job" and "Buck, you are a bloody idiot". The swearing is not the important thing here, the personal attack is.

2. This leads me to the second point. It's amazing how this message board has led to couples forming and people meeting and becoming friends IRL, even over the continents. However, I believe that personal relationships affect how people interpret each other also at the board. I noticed there has been some discussion about how one member who does not like another members opionins might become biased and view all this member's posts in a more negative light - that certainly can happen, but we must realise that the opposite can also happen, that members who know each other personally and have a lot of communication outside the board, judge a members post not only from what is actually written in the post but from personal knowledge of that members behaviour, personality and opinions. I have personally seen several examples of this happening, not only now but also previously - and it is especially noticable when one member defends another member in a discussion where people have conflicting views.

Any more recent member should have been banned solely for personal attacks where calling another member names and accusing them for discrimination. Imagine someone like Galuf or Audace calling a Moderator idiot and racist - they would have been banned in a second regardless if they had used swear worlds or Waverly-subtilites.

3. Whereas I personally couldn't care less about swear words or other types of words, I do care about personal attacks. I think they have no place in any discussion, not here, not anywhere. I am happy this board does not tolerate it, since nothing is so disruptive for dialogue and discussion as taking things personally, and perform personal attacks. My suggestion would not be to loosen up the forum rules, nor to cease all serious discussion because there is a risk people might get upset and over-emotional. Serious discussion threads are for those who wish to discuss when they wish to discuss, spam threads is for those who wish to spam, when they wish to spam. My suggestion is instead that everybody who wish to participate in discussions with people of different age and from different parts of the world should make an effort not to take things so personal and to make a distinction between opinion about a topic or opinion of other member's opinions, and themselves and other members and persons. This is only a message board - most of us don't know each other as full individuals, we only know what is written in the posts. Disagreeing about certain topics is not the end of world - and I do think people are able to like each other and get something out of communicating with each other without *hugs* and happy smilies between each and every sentance. Politics, religion, history interpretation, cognitive style - all of this is but a small part of what a human being is. We don't need to behave as if we dislike each other as persons because we disagree about different topics. And for those who don't like discussion but want to just spam and joke - please feel free: just start spamming. Some people seem to have clear opinions of how SYM should be and what kind of conversations should be going on - start making it like that them - as long as it is within forum rules

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 8:53 pm

A Public appology fora public mistake.

Thank you Buck for taking time to read the thread. GB is very special to me, and I thank you for all that you do, and have done to make this such a wonderful place for us to meet and come together. You have my sincerest admiration, and most heart felt appreciation.

Originally posted by der Moench
@Scayde: When I read your point #3, I could see it would cause problems (I should have PM'd you immediately). I'm not sure what you meant by it even now, but it reads like you are implying Enchantress is being "inflamatory, hurtful and rude and do[ing] so without getting in trouble." If you intended it in this manner, it is not something that needs to be said in the forum - take it to PM, or leave her name out of it. If you did not intend it this way, please be careful with wording - even when you are in a hurry, and especially when using the name of someone who is obviously in a bit of a temper over recent events.

@der Moench:...Point well made, and well taken my friend.

I would do this in a PM, but I think Enchantress and the board desrve better. A public apology for a public mistake.

My apologies to all for a bad choice of words presented in a bad way.

Enchantress. A special apology to you for singling you out to make a point. That was poorly done, and I am sorry. I hope you can accept my sincere regrets.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 1:50 am

...shall I post or not? ...

...well I did, so there!

On a serious note...

I think the mods and Buck must act as a team and must collectively discuss an important issue and then Buck decides then what to do -- still, it's Buck's call.

Any misunderstanding between the mods, IMO, should not be taken in public.

Mods are posters too though I must admit that being a mod means being more careful in what you post. I got this idea of using teal font to make everybody aware that I'm posting as a member and not as a mod. When I post as a mod, I use the regular white color. When in doubt, I would still consult my fellow mods and Buck about something before I make that particular post.

I try to veer away from issues concerning religion most especially when I feel strongly about something really touchy for us Catholics.

One must understand that as a Catholic, some of the ideas and posts are blasphemous for us, and yet I do understand that the poster was not in any way trying to be offensive...

...that's just the way the person thinks given his/her profile background. Why should I put it against them if they were nonbelievers? Why would they put it against me that despite the lack of empirical and logical proof that God exists, I'm still a believer?

It's all about respect and learning to co-exist.

I think CE hit it right in the head when she said something about "not the words that were used, but the meaning behind the words that were used."

I remember having this discussion with Silur about respect despite difference in opinion and background. I think this is the gist of the forum --- to air one's pov without purposely offending others. If there was any offense taken then surely it must have been not the poster's intention.

Fas' comments about the DF's might sound offensive to some "feminists" who may happen to see his posts for the first time, but most regulars here know pretty well that that is just Fas' way to be more endearing to the women --- I think.

Even Waverly's way of affection when he addresses his friends like KidD is a good example, much as the same way his friends (Ubik and Grunt to name a few) would call him this particular nick yet he takes offense when somebody else would use that same nick.

I know this thread isnt about me but I just want to share my opinion as both a regular poster and as a mod.

Should Grunt be reinstated and given a chance (assuming he's interested in coming back)?

I aint answering that in public out of delicadeza. (sense of honor and respect and propriety)

Anyway, for those who know me, they likely know what my answer is.

Enchantress · Post by **Enchantress** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 3:46 am

Re: A Public appology fora public mistake.

Originally posted by Scayde

I would do this in a PM, but I think Enchantress and the board desrve better. A public apology for a public mistake.

My apologies to all for a bad choice of words presented in a bad way.

Enchantress. A special apology to you for singling you out to make a point. That was poorly done, and I am sorry. I hope you can accept my sincere regrets.

I totally accept your apology, Scayde and apologise to you too. I can see there have been many misunderstandings of intent lately and I'm aware that I don't make myself clear sometimes - I'm an emotional person and communicate on that level.

Also, a personal comment made at someone is just a genuine expression of how I feel rather than calculated attempt at attacking them, but of course the medium of the internet will always make that difficult to convey. Yes, I know I should make more use of smilies.

However, because you also met your partner here on GB, Scayde, you will be able to best empathize with me about my feelings recently regarding the banning of Gruntboy. Not being able to be with him here anymore for "old times sake" in the place where we met is quite sad. I guess I was feeling rather miserable, angry and, in a way, I almost wanted to throw myself on top of his funeral pyre, metaphorically speaking.

But I feel OK now. In retrospect, maybe nothing could be done to prevent him getting banned eventually because if he wasn't shockingly crude and foul-mouthed, he wouldn't be Gruntboy, would he! I'm just grateful I met him here in the first place and, in a way, I want to thank Buck for this site for that reason. We don't have wedding photos yet but, you never know - we might have at some point in the future!

der Moench · Post by **der Moench** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 5:08 am

Good grief - first Nippy the Paladin, and now der Moench the Monk!

Awww!

Look - Scayde and Enchantress have made up!

Good! Now I want you to give each other a nice firm handshake and look in the eye .... good!

How about a little hug between friends? .... good!

Maybe a little sisterly kiss would show everyone here that there's no hard feelings? .... wonderful!

Now if you both would like to step over here to the hot-tub area ....

*der Moench whispers covertly into his lapel: you getting all this Bloodstalker?*

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:27 am

Re: Good grief - first Nippy the Paladin, and now der Moench the Monk!

Originally posted by der Moench
Awww! Look - Scayde and Enchantress have made up! Good! Now I want you to give each other a nice firm handshake and look in the eye .... good! How about a little hug between friends? .... good! Maybe a little sisterly kiss would show everyone here that there's no hard feelings? .... wonderful! Now if you both would like to step over here to the hot-tub area ....

*der Moench whispers covertly into his lapel: you getting all this Bloodstalker?*

*pulls the plug from DM's transmitter*

*cough* Guten Morgen, Brewmeister.

Are we forgetting the small issue of the...subscription fee? Hmm?

Credit card only please, no cash, checks, or money orders. Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express accepted. Payment due most rickety-tick, Herr Brewer.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:45 am

Trust my COMMrades to be COMMically COMMunicative.

Originally posted by der Moench
Awww! Look - Scayde and Enchantress have made up! Good! Now I want you to give each other a nice firm handshake and look in the eye .... good! How about a little hug between friends? .... good! Maybe a little sisterly kiss would show everyone here that there's no hard feelings? .... wonderful! Now if you both would like to step over here to the hot-tub area ....

*der Moench whispers covertly into his lapel: you getting all this Bloodstalker?*

...
If Sensei didnt get this, I'm sure HLD did!

Gadz! Even the COMMrade Direktor is into the business!

Such is the legacy of Weasel.

I think we need a group hug.

Chanak · Post by **Chanak** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 6:53 am

@Mah: Kemosabe, this is purely a business decision, I'm sure you understand...and no, you may not get one month's subscription free just because you're Kemosabe.

I hope that answers your question.

Group hug? Hey, I have an even better idea...why don't you grab hold of a live electrical wire, Kemosabe? We can form one of those nifty circles then, all holding hands, laughing as our hair stands on end.

In your case, though, the lampshade would probably light up.

Maharlika · Post by **Maharlika** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:19 am

LMAO, Kemosabe!

...dig that flash of the lampshade!

After the light bulb flashes, I'll release my hand and whoever gets the end of the series gets the brunt of the shock!

Better for this kind of group hug than a grope hug.

ps. Sorry about my long post.

The gist is, let's learn to just co-exist and be respectful of others.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Thu Jul 03, 2003 8:23 am

Originally posted by Maharlika
ps. Sorry about my long post. The gist is, let's learn to just co-exist and be respectful of others.

You know, you could have said the same thing much more easily by just saying "let's learn to just co-exist and be respectful of others."

Scayde · Post by **Scayde** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:40 am

Re: Good grief - first Nippy the Paladin, and now der Moench the Monk!

Originally posted by der Moench
...... Now if you both would like to step over here to the hot-tub area ....

Forgive me Father, but you have sinned !!!

*Group HUG*

*Grope* @ the guys

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:48 am

I didn't read the post(s) that grunty posted, however profanity is ok, but the main reason it isn't accepted as it is used to insult someone. Only when that insult is serious, or it provokes someone does it matter IMHO.

RandomThug · Post by **RandomThug** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:07 am

*grabs a big handfull of scaydes arse*

Group Hug... I uhh yeah.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 10:16 am

Wow. Thug's given up clinging to Scayde's leg. Next thing you know, he'll love Canada

. Isn't that right Thug? You looooove Canada, our mounties, our wildlife, our snow, Jim Carrey, Shania Twain, Celine Dion and of course, William Shatner