What Weapon!

Dezarond the Red · Post by **Dezarond the Red** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:26 pm

ok...ive decided to play through with a fighter...simple but fun ya know...i cant decide were to put my prof. i think to keep things semi stereotypical i want to go with some sort of blade...preferably one handed...should i go one handed sword and shield or dual wield??...i just dont know..if i go with shield what is a good sword shield combo...fank ya folks

dragon wench · Post by **dragon wench** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:04 pm

I am usually inclined to go with a kensai. I put all but one star into sword, and the remaining one into the "without shield" option ( sorry, can't recall the name, it is a long time since I have played). But basically it gives you extra AC when you are fighting with a one-handed weapon.

However, it is really all about what works for you personally, since everyone has a different playing style

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:15 pm

I would go for dual wielding, the benefits of two weapons IMO are superior to that of sword and shield. Though you lose a bit in defense, the offensive (an cheesing

) capabilities of dual wielding more then make up for that. The bonus of sword-and-shield style are not very impressive (better AC vs missiles).

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:30 pm

Personally...

I'd personally avoid long swords - there's only one really compelling one, Blackrazor, and you only get that at the very end of SoA...although there are a zillion semi-decent ones. If you're staying with a single one hand style, I'd go with katana, axe, hammer or flail. Katana & hammer take a while 'till you can get a good one, though. I always try to minimize weapon skill redundancy in the party, though - except in Short Bow, Longbow, 2HSword and Staves, of which there are plenty of nice weapons to pick from - so you may want to think about who you'll have with you.

I would ensure that every character has at least one point in a ranged weapon - remember that includes daggers, darts, and throwing axes - and a throwing hammer if you're a dwarf.

There's also always a trade off of using one weapon exclusively, and GMing it, versus using a diversity of weapons reasonably well - you'll have to follow your own judgement there. If you're a fighter I would certainly recommend dual wielding ultimately (at least two stars in dw) unless you go with two handed weapons - the best defence is still a good offence

However, at lower levels, going with a shield is a decent option, at least untill you have the skill to dual wield effectively.

Single weapon style is really only useful for rogues, IMAO - real melees should use two handers or dual wield. Kensai may be an exception, though to gain a litlle AC given their armour restrictions - still, Kensai should really be offensive melee, not defensive.

Derrin · Post by **Derrin** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:50 pm

Flail - 4 stars
One hand weapon - 1 star

Ian Kognitow · Post by **Ian Kognitow** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:04 pm

Re: Personally...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nephtu
I'd personally avoid long swords - there's only one really compelling one, Blackrazor, and you only get that at the very end of SoA...although there are a zillion semi-decent ones.

I think that longswords are an excellent choice actually, especially when dual-wielding. For example, even before blackrazor, daystar and equilizer is a fine combination with great bonuses. And in the very early game weapons like adjatha and flame tongue are quite serviceable.

Really, as far as indispensible, compelling weapons, there is pretty much just one of each [crom faeyr=hammers, C. fury=katana, Flail of ages, etc]. Throw in that the other fighter NPCs specialize in other types - korgan/axes, Keldorn/2handsword, Minsc/2hand,mace, Mazzy/shortsword, and picking longsword gives good balance. And very good if used with a swashbuckler/fighter dual. Elf gains additional bonus too.

Elemental ZOOT · Post by **Elemental ZOOT** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:32 pm

Well i have to agree that Long swords are the best. I reccomend you get the Daystar and the Flame Tounge +1. I've got 3 flame toungues (none from cheating!) so yeah.

If you want to make a fighter make sure you pick either these 2 :
Wizard Slayer
Barbarian ( They're the best to use)

and Make SURE you either get a fighter in a
Dwarf
Half Orc

Axes are quite so-so but i sell all the ones i get because i tend to hate axes. But to the point i would get ***** stars in Flail and Hammer or Long swords (as to the Daystar , Equiliser, Namara +2) Warrhammer (The thunderbolt one, War hammer +2, Crom Freyer) Flail of ages +3, Flail +2. Besides, getting 5***** in flail means you get 5***** in Morning stars and theres some good ones like the sleeper and wyverns tail.

Also getting 2 weapon style is good for rangers (esp Minsc) Valygar, Korgan ETC.

thats my idea - give more later

ELEMENTAL ZOOT

Balinor · Post by **Balinor** » Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:28 pm

I personally think that the two best fighters are probably the kensai and the berserker, not the wizard slayer and the barbarian. But if you are going to have Korgan in your party, you may want to go with either the kensai or one of ZOOT's picks to avoid redundancy.

Mirk · Post by **Mirk** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:01 am

almost every weapon type has it's "winner" in ToB, most of which you can get during SoA in a "still nerfed" version, upgradable to "uber" as you advance in ToB. if you have SoA only, some weapon types are WAY more powerfull than others.

as for fighting styles, of course all have their pros and cons, and the key is balance between party members (i always have a char that uses 2-handed weapons, a duel-weilder or two, a bow/crossbow specialist, and a slinger) if i had to pick, i have found duel-weilding to be slightly better in the power/optionality/ceeewl looks areas.

the warrior classes and kits are imho well-balanced, so it's really up to you and the npc's you wanna pick

here are my winners for weapon proficiencies:

SoA only:

1. flail - some nice +2 ones early on, nothing fancy, just to get you started, a cool one the bonus mercheant sales, and of course the flail of ages - you get it really early, does blunt (golems!) and elemental (stoneskin!) damage, slow effect with no save works through MR!

2. katana - especially if you have a deacent backstabber. the celestal fury easily matches the flail of ages in terms of power, and is available very early too.

3. 2-handed sword - there are many good ones available for every power level, from the first dungeon through the vorpal sword towards the end. a char with ** in 2-handed and a 2-handed sword will never be out of buisness, especially if you have a paladin

here are cool weapons that "didn't make the team", but are worth mentioning:

mace - mace of disruption should be weilded in every undead-heavy area, and there are enough in the game.
hammer - crom frayer is great, you just get it a bit too late, and it's a bit too expencive item-wise.
longsword - some nice ones, but nothing to get me excited. i usually end up using the equaliser and blackrazor as an off-hand weapon for the mind-shield!
scimitar - belm +2 is the best off-hand weapon, as it adds an extra attack to the MAIN HAND. you don't even need a proficiency in it.
missile weapons - all that magical ammo just lying around, it would be a shame not to use it!
+4 missile weapons that require no ammo and do elemental damage (firetooth and gesen bow) - equip normal arrows/bolts, and shoot through protection from magical weapons + stoneskin, or unequip the ammo to shoot throug mantles + stoneskin

ToB:
1. still flail of ages - the slow effect is a solid help in every combat, up to the last one. the +5 version is just... well, it's too much! if only they had a scimitar with these abilities (i just like the scimitar animation best...)

2. two-handed sword - there are actually too many good ones to be used, even if you switch to the most appropriate

3. a tie - hammers, axes, bastard swords
crom fraeyer and runehammer - two +5 weapons in the same group, that you can weild together!
axe of unyeilding - can you say 1-handed vorpal weapon?
foebane - your char will end up with 200hp at the end of the fight, and there are more than enough deamons running around...

every other weapon has it's "killer" version here, these are just my personnal favorites.

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:59 am

More...

Good two handed swords and bows are in (essentially) unlimited supply.

Axe is an excellent choice - you can get Frostreaver early, and Azuredge (good characters only), and it includes other ranged choices... only available to dwarves in hammer. Plus, of course, the upgraded Axe of the Unyielding later on.

Flail has one main weapon, FoA, it's true - but I can think of three other descent flails:
Defender of Easthaven +3: Weaopns damage resist! GREAT offhander
Flail of Everard+2: Target loses spells on hits - nice vs. casters
Ice Star +4 - Elemental damage, FR, and a pretty nice weapon all around

Halberds, spears and staves are often underrated in the two handers - there are some really insanley good ones, especially with the item upgrades/ToB/tactics, and you can backstab with (most) staves. Spears, of course, have the option of being both ranged AND melee, like axes. The merits of Duskblade, Dragonsbreath and the Ravager are also fairly obvious.

I still contend that longswords are very limited - none (except Blackrazor) have compelling effects like the elemental damge of FoA/Dragonsbreath, the undead disruption of Azuredge, the STR bonus of Crom Faeyr, etc. Few have really high enchantment bonuses (none above +3), so they can't carve through a lot of spell protections like the mantle line or hit some bosses. Daystar is good against undead, but that's about all, really - and IMAO Azuredge is better, especially if it's upgraded - the upgrade decision on Daystar is a tricky one. Longswords are probably ok for a fighter/thief or rogue if Katana is already taken (say, by Valygar, who can really put a serious hurt on with them), since you can backstab with them, but even so you could have Valygar on, say, CF/family sword and your other katana guy on Dakon zerith/Sanchudoku /Hindo's doom.

Maces and bastard swords are basically junky in Vanilla SoA, except for two special applications:
1) Mace of disruption vs. Undead
2) The 18 STR mace for frail clericy types like Viconia or Aerie

Sker · Post by **Sker** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:27 pm

I would also add skullcrusher to the list of descent maces (not great but solid) and (spoiler - highlight to read)the upgraded mace of disruption is FAR better than the original. -- Use the Illithium to upgrade & get negative plane protection.

Dezarond the Red · Post by **Dezarond the Red** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:01 pm

thanx for the reply fellers...ok..i have TOB so i would like to get a weapon that is upgradeable in TOB...i also have the mod with that bad as hell katana that beat the holy ****e outa anyone it touches...so ill prolly end up using SK to give myself a little proficiency in everything...that way i can tast all the flavors ya know, there is just too many cool weapons to pass up...but thanx for your help.

Loki 65t · Post by **Loki 65t** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:28 am

I'd also go with dual wield - fighters are best suited for this.
If you're having difficulties with choosing then perhaps you should think about the rpg aspect of the choice. For example
if you take a dwarf then axe+hammer seems an obvious choice.
If you want to play a human then flail + katana or scimitar perhaps ?
For a half-elf/elf scimitar +katana seems almost natural.
Truth is a fighter can hold it's own even dual wielding daggers - so it's rather a question of taste then terms of power.

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:25 am

Hmm..

Do as you please, of course, and if you want to pick on RP grounds, knock yourself out. If you do go Katana + Dual wield, Sanchuudoku is a great off-hander, but I think Celestial Fury is a better main - those stuns are very handy, and the acidic backlash will still work the same. The combination (which I have on Valygar, atm) is a wicked one, certainly.

And Sker is right - Skullcrusher is a good solid mace.

Promil · Post by **Promil** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 9:38 am

I think KENSAI is the best fighter when fight with Greatswords(2handed) because he has bonuses to speed and thaco&DMG
greatsword has a speed=8 then it is reduced by 2handed specialization by 4, and at last Kensai abilities gives him -1 speed/4lvl(-4 on 16th LVL). Result- Greatsword on speed 0 !!!

Ranger has always advanced dual weapon(++) and for him I prefere Longsword(++)or bastard(++){katana is very rare<+3 only> and i found <+4> greatswords etc. but no katana better than <+3>. Choice is simple!

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:17 pm

Um...no. (Spoilers)

Promil, that's really not correct. Kensai is a fine kit (though primarily best if you plan to dual to mage or thief, IMAO), but the speed factor argument is just not valid - even with a speed factor 10 weapon you'll do fine, its damage bonuses and attacks/round that matter.

Kensai represents a reasonable tradeoff in the switch to offensive power. Damage and THAC0 bonuses are nice, but not overwhelming. There are certainly a variety of nice two handers, though many of the best are resticted in who can use them (Carsomyr, Soul Reaver)

Bastard sword is a rotten choice in SoA, (and only little better in ToB) - nothing better than Jhor +2, IIRC, and that's a lame one that you don't get till late with a manky DoT effect.

The Katana Celestial Fury +3 easily outperforms every longsword in SoA except Blackrazor, is available quite early on, and combines very nicely with the Corthala family sword (for Valygar) or Dak'kon Zerth - if dual wielding is your bag - (especially nice for fighter mages). What are you going to dual wield in longswords? The equalizer (once you get back from the underdark) and ....what? The blade of roses? Decent enchantments, but no really compelling effects at all - immunity to charm and illusion, whoop-de-do.

However, it is true that in the vanilla game, probably only one or at most two characters can effectively use katanas. I'd just have them go with flails, hammers or axes, NOT longswords or bastard swords.

All that being said, pick the weapons you like.
My 2 gold worth...

Numinor · Post by **Numinor** » Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:33 pm

I agree Bastard Swords are nearly useless in SoA, but in ToB have you ever played a Paladin dual-wielding Foebane+5 and Purifier+5 ?
You can get Foebane+3/Purifier+4 while still in SoA,too; they aren't that bad either.

Promil · Post by **Promil** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 10:21 am

I disagree that the speed factor is non importand!!!
With lower speed you will attack faster with your weapon and then you have more chances to kill opponent faster than he could kill you.
My 19 LVL kensai half-orc( in SoA) could do 34-36 DMG per attack and he ALWAYS( except die roll 1- critical miss) hit!!!!!!!
Dual wielding gives you only +1 attack with left hand- no more!!!
Kensai must sacrifice 3 weapon specialization points todual wielding and Ranger must sacrifice only one (My bowman specialize with flails + <Flail of ages> hammers + <crom fayer>
dual wield+++ and longbow ++++ - and he is very good
*HIDE ability
*GOOD ranged damage
*2 weapon fighting
*druidical spells

nephtu · Post by **nephtu** » Wed Oct 01, 2003 11:21 am

Promil, I think that you're confusing two different things

Originally posted by Promil
I disagree that the speed factor is non importand!!!
With lower speed you will attack faster with your weapon and then you have more chances to kill opponent faster than he could kill you.
My 19 LVL kensai half-orc( in SoA) could do 34-36 DMG per attack and he ALWAYS( except die roll 1- critical miss) hit!!!!!!!

Weapon speed has nothing to do with what you've described above - it's THAC0 that determines to hit, STR/skill and level bonuses to damage, and attacks per round (a function of level, weapon skill, and haste) and THAC0 - all of which ought to be pretty good on a level 19 Kensai

With all other factors except weapon speed the same, you will hit the same number of times for the same amount of damage in the round. Weapon speed only modifies where within the round (or fraction of a round, if you have multilpe attacks) the attack lands, as modified by other initiative considerations. 34-36 damage per hit sounds iffy, except on criticals - what's your Kensai using for a weapon & what's his THAC0?

Weapon speed only really matters at all for ambush attacks - like backstabbing mages or ganking undead with azuredge. For backstabs, you can just use a weapon like Kundane (which is just about worth the SS skill for rogues all by itself.), though haste & improved invis all add to your initiative modifier.

Originally posted by Promil
Dual wielding gives you only +1 attack with left hand- no more!!!
Kensai must sacrifice 3 weapon specialization points todual wielding and Ranger must sacrifice only one (My bowman specialize with flails + <Flail of ages> hammers + <crom fayer>
dual wield+++ and longbow ++++ - and he is very good
*HIDE ability
*GOOD ranged damage
*2 weapon fighting
*druidical spells

It's true that dual wield only gives you one extra attack (and not even that of you're using an ability like GWW) - however many offhand weapons have significant extra merits - protections & immunities - pro vs. fear, extra AC, resist damage, negative planes, an extra attack (Belm), DoT damage, yadda yadda yadda. These may well be very useful. Also, that one extra attack can be muy importante when fighting spell casters.

All this being said, the option of GMing one weapon vs. moderate skill in multiples is one that represents irreducible tradeoffs (and is a worthwhile topic in itself) - especially as it depends on which patchset you're running.

You are, however, absolutley correct that two handed weapons are certainly worthwhile for your melee classes - there are, as I have said, simply too many nice two hand swords to count, as well as staves, spears and halberds - spears and halberds kick in a bit late, and more so with mods, but there are some very nice ones, especially in ToB - Ixil , the Ravager, u/g Impaler, the poison spear from the Ritual, etc.

That's one reason I suggest covvering a variety of weapon skills within the party - your splitting proficiencies to a largely two handed sword using kensai and dual wielding ranger is a good example of that.

Good gaming!

Promil · Post by **Promil** » Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:50 am

I didn't write that weapon speed means number of attacks!!!
But have you ever fight with strong opponent and in final of the battle you and he were near death?????
Those who hit faster will win whole battle( and with high weapon speed you will lose)
That is why I write speed is importand (especially with "single battles" with strong opponents)