Is this a cheesy tactic?

Lafortezza · Post by **Lafortezza** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:17 pm

Is this a cheesy tactic?

Spoiler

I'm in chapter 2, and just completed the Unseeing Eye quest,
when I went deeper down to get the second part of the Rift Device I was getting mugged by the Gauths and Beholders, reloaded about 4 times, still getting killed and heavily damaged.

So I had a look at the spells available to me and decided to send in some summoned beasties ahead of my party.

I had Jaheira memorise then summon 2 Fire Elementals, and Anomen do the same for 2 Aerial Servants.
I then sent these 4 into where the beholders/gauths were and listened to the sounds and read the fight description text as it unfolded.

Those 4 summons killed every beholder and gauth in about 20 seconds per fight, including the Unseeing Eye Beholder itself.
(and came out of it pretty much unharmed!)

I then went on to the Haer'Delis quest where you follow them through the planar gate thingy and you meet the thralls. Theres a big demon thingy thrall leader and he summons 2 Air Elementals.
I sent in the same 4 summons, hasted, blessed, chanted and with defensive harmony, and it took 10 seconds, they were hitting him for 60hp a go.

Only things I've seen kill the summons were umber hulks.
Is this an exploit or cheat or something, and most importantly will it continue to work on Beholder type creatures which always seem to kick my ass!

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:49 pm

Summoning monsters to kill your enemies is not a cheesy tactic. It's a common and fairly conventional tactic. Look at it this way: you can send in your fighters to beat things to death (and they tend to be very good at that), and you can let your spellcasters use spells. Either way of fighting is legitimate. (I think a combination of the two is best.) You might notice that lots of enemies use summoned monsters as well as servants and henchmen--they have already figured it out.

There are lots of summoning spells and items available in the game, and they are meant to be used. Using the tools at hand to come up with effective battle strategies is part of the game. Allow me to congratulate you for looking at your spell selection and devising a great strategy to get out of tough situations.

Beholders come in several sizes, so to speak, and therefore different strengths: gauths, beholders, Elder Orbs, and Hive Mothers come to mind. I don't know what else you might have in mind when you say "beholder-type creatures". The best way to find out what works against them is to try something and see for yourself. Some people find one strategy that works and stick with it. If you enjoy using only one strategy to kill everything, by all means go for it. Done properly, it could actually approach an art form.

But I think it's fun to try different strategies just for the sake of variety. You will mostly likely meet new monsters that will require you to re-think your old strategies, and as your characters become more powerful and acquire new items and spells, you'll probably want to change your strategies, anyway. So stay on your toes and have fun.

In any case, even though the monsters will get stronger, so will you, and therefore you have little to fear.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:21 pm

i love summons..try skeleton warriors hasted for more fun...

there are a lot of cheesy things you can do with summons, but just using them in battle is not cheesy...and i would know...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:38 pm

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
there are a lot of cheesy things you can do with summons...

You mean like bunnies and nukes?

It just occurred to me that if Lafortezza's summoned monsters killed everything off-screen and the enemies never fought back, then I would consider that to be cheesy, since it's an exploit of poorly implemented AI. But I'll keep quiet and let other people post their comments.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:34 pm

Originally posted by VonDondu
You mean like bunnies and nukes?

It just occurred to me that if Lafortezza's summoned monsters killed everything off-screen and the enemies never fought back, then I would consider that to be cheesy, since it's an exploit of poorly implemented AI. But I'll keep quiet and let other people post their comments.

they never fought back???!!!!

well, i always used farsight to guide my summons in...hmmm...so if you send summons in blind, they won't fight back....Nope...wrong...i know for a fact that sending summons in blind they still fight back...

urm...i was thinking more of project image cheese, and using the guard button to shoot thru the walls..hehehheh!!!

might be pre baldurdash patch tho...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:23 am

As I indicated, it was just an after-thought. I can't remember how off-screen monsters act under every condition. The AI in a native game of BG2 never seemed all that great to me; the AI in IWD2, for example, is a lot better. I know that the monsters will come running if you hit them with a fireball, but Lafortezza's post was a little ambiguous on second glance, and I wasn't sure whether the monsters were fighting back when he sent his summons in to kill them. In my latest game, I haven't gotten very far, and I've installed a lot of MODs, so I can't check it out for myself at the moment.

Lafortezza · Post by **Lafortezza** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:16 am

just to clarify!
In the examples I mentioned in my first post(s), the enemys always had the red circles around them, or else I'd sent Yoshimo hiding in shadows scouting ahead and he'd initiated a conversation with a cyan circle monster/boss, but since he was hidden I was able to make him run back to my party, and send in the summons to the (now red-circled) enemy/boss,

If I had found a way to send summons in without them attacking back I'd definitely let you know

Couple more questions!

1) Aerie has load of spells up to level nine, but she's not a high enough level herself to memorise and therefore use them, I'm coming to the end of Chapter 2 now, any easy way to bump her up a level or 2 quickly?

2) Yoshimo is crap!! He's got no melee skills at all, is a less than adequate archer (using that bow that needs now ammo), and is only useful for scouting and lockpicking type things. What am I missing?

3) Jaheira, wield Belm (?) Scimitar with extra attack and that +3 shield? Or dual wield Gnasher and Black Blood clubs?

4) The Lich in the Unseeing Eye quest, is it possible to beat him now at the end of Chapter 2? I've only Winspear hills and Gaelan Bayle quests to do. Should I wait til later?

5) Is Keldorn worth getting to replace Minsc with Lilarcor, or Sir Anomen dual wielding FoA and Wyverns tail, (with 1 proficiency in Flails)?

Thinks that all the Q's for now!

Ghazghkull · Post by **Ghazghkull** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:44 am

1) I agree that Aerie is crap in SoA but if you bring her in ToB you will love this dual class ( cle / mag is so powerfull )

2) yeah yoshi sucks but there is some interesting background with him so if its your 1st time you play BG2 then keep him to atleast know it

3) i play Jaheira with staff, there is so much staff druid only that are very powerfull, like Arundel's staff and Staff of the wood
plus as i know there is no scimetar +4 or+5 anywhere :/

4) the shadow liche is the easiest of all of them, don't even need +4 weapon, you can kill it during chapter 2.

5) well just 1 word ..... CARSOMYR so get him assap ! and i hate Minsc and his stupid boo, his skill sucks wtf a ranger with 2 handled weapon :/
.... I never used Anomen since my main char is a Dwarf cleric / warrior and 1 is more than enuf

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:29 am

Lafortezza:

1) Actually, starting Chapter 3 will give you huge bunch of exp points EACH members, and as will the end of the Chapter 3.

2) Yoshimo is not a fighter. His job is to back stab, set/disarm traps, unlock etc which warriors can't. Some traps in this game are powerful enough to kill you (or enemies, if he's the one setting them).

3) I give Jaheira shield+weapon early on, then when she gets highlevel with very low AC, I give her dual weapons. Case by case.

4) You can try. If you find it too difficult after a few reloads, you can decide to come back later.

5) Keldorn is great, especially if you give him Gauntlet of Dexterity (the pair you find during the Unseeneye quest) and one of the strength belts. He's usually has the most kill by the end of my games, and his special ability to cast Dispel and True Sight is better than mages (and give mage spell slots to learn something else). Unless you are attached to Minsc, you won't regret replacing them.

Sir Anomen is okay, as long as you are not playing female.

He's only one available for female character to romance, and his chat up line is very, very annoying. You should give him more flail proficiency, then add Warhammer later on, because you will have a chance to get very powerful Warhammer very late in the game.

Badseed · Post by **Badseed** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:54 am

I always take Keldorn. His Dispell and True Sight + Pally Sword are awsome. (Even though his stats are kinda low) I use him as a second line fighter, along with (Sir) Anomen.

And I always take Minsc too. How can you not love Minsc? Anyways, I have Minsc dual wielding Maces and Axes. He makes Minsc-meat out of the baddies. Give him a Mace of Disruption +2 and sent him in against undead. (Or Sir Anomen at later stagest in the game. I walked through Bohdi's Lair the second time without having to attack anyone. Anny's Turn Undead made everything there into bite sized, chuncky bits.)

Xyx · Post by **Xyx** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:17 am

...or alternatively, start a multiplayer game with just yourself, and make all the party members from scratch.

Idioteque · Post by **Idioteque** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:32 pm

1) Aerie is strong even in SoA if you use her right. She is my dragon slayer.

2) Yoshimo makes a decent fighter if you dual him as soon as you get him with 17 str 18 dex and 16 con IIRC. He'll probably have the best armor class in your group. Of course you will have to take another theif with you if you do this.

3) I usually get blackblood and a shield for Jaheira early on but if you have the bonus merchant mod then you should check out a couple of nice scimatars sold by Joluv in the Copper Coronet.

4) You can kill all liches in Ch 2 as long as you have the rigt weapons/magic.

5) I always tell myself before I start that I won't take Minsc because he has no quests. But I always end up keeping him because Minsc is Minsc and Boo is Boo. He always leads my group in kills and has some of the best dialogue in the game.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:25 pm

Originally posted by Lafortezza
If I had found a way to send summons in without them attacking back I'd definitely let you know

That would be cheesy.

Originally posted by Lafortezza
1) Aerie has load of spells up to level nine, but she's not a high enough level herself to memorise and therefore use them, I'm coming to the end of Chapter 2 now, any easy way to bump her up a level or 2 quickly?

She'll go up more than a couple of levels if you go to Chapter Three and go from there.

Let me put it this way. If you have already completed most of the sidequests in Chapter Two, then you are way more than ready for Chapter Three, which isn't really that hard. I usually side with Bodhi and do all of the quests in Chapter Three with one 12th-13th Level melee character and Nalia. Siding with the Shadow Thieves involves a much more difficult battle, but a full party of six at your level shouldn't have any problems with it. So don't worry about Aerie if that's all that's keeping you from going to Chapter Three.

Originally posted by Lafortezza
2) Yoshimo is crap!! He's got no melee skills at all, is a less than adequate archer (using that bow that needs now ammo), and is only useful for scouting and lockpicking type things. What am I missing?

You seem to be missing the fact that ALL Thieves have a terrible THAC0, so they rarely ever hit anything dangerous at low levels. Yoshimo has just about the best possible stats for a Thief; even if his STR and CON (or any other stats) were 18, it wouldn't make any difference--his THAC0 and Hit Points and would not improve.

You could dual-class him to a Fighter, but it wouldn't do you any good at this point since he wouldn't regain his Thief skills before you started Chapter Three, and all he would be is a low-level Fighter.

My advice is to keep him in the party for now so you can use his Thieving skills (nothing can truly replace a Thief's skills), and replace him with Imoen when you rescue her from Spellhold. As I explain below, the point in doing that is not to acquire a better melee character, but rather, to acquire a good Mage who can cast spells and do all of your lockpicking and trap-removing.

Originally posted by Lafortezza
4) The Lich in the Unseeing Eye quest, is it possible to beat him now at the end of Chapter 2? I've only Windspear hills and Gaelan Bayle quests to do. Should I wait til later?

I usually beat him in Chapter Two after I have done a couple of major quests (such as Windspear Hills and Unseeing Eye) and a few minor quests (The Circus, The Kidnappers, The Copper Coronet, etc.). He's part of a larger sub-quest that I always finish in Chapter Three.

Originally posted by Lafortezza
5) Is Keldorn worth getting to replace Minsc with Lilarcor, or Sir Anomen dual wielding FoA and Wyverns tail, (with 1 proficiency in Flails)?

I'm assuming that your party contains:

PC
Aerie
Jaheira
Yoshimo
Minsc
Anomen

If your PC is not a Mage, then I don't think you have enough Mages in your party, and I think that's the biggest deficiency in your party. In that respect, replacing Minsc or Anomen with Keldorn wouldn't help you much.

Replacing Anomen with Keldorn would actually make your party weaker, since (as you have already found out) it's great to have a powerful Cleric in your party (or more than one, or even more than two).

When Anomen is buffed up with Cleric spells, he's a much better overall melee character than Keldorn (even taking Keldorn's Dispel Magic into account). At higher levels, you won't have to worry about undead monsters if Anomen is in your party, since he can Turn them. I wouldn't get rid of any of your spellcasters unless you had a really good reason to do so.

Replacing Minsc with Keldorn would improve your party a little bit, since Keldorn equipped with Carsomyr is better in melee than Minsc equipped with any weapon I can think of in Shadows of Amn, and his Inquisitor abilities surpass any innate abilities that most NPCs can offer you. I like having Minsc in my party (especially if I also have Aerie), but if your only concern is power, then Keldorn is better.

I think a better move would be to replace Yoshimo with Imoen when you get to Spellhold. Yoshimo isn't very good in melee (as you noted), and while his Thieving skills are useful (especially his traps), Imoen has enough Thieving skills to get you by (you'll give up any chance of using traps or backstabbing). But the important thing is that you need another Mage, and Imoen is a decent Mage who is just as impressive at higher levels as any non-kitted Mage who isn't named Edwin, and she can even cast Identify.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:42 pm

Originally posted by Idioteque
5) I always tell myself before I start that I won't take Minsc because he has no quests. But I always end up keeping him because Minsc is Minsc and Boo is Boo...

I take exception to that. A better way to put it is "Minsc and Boo are Minsc and Boo".

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:47 pm

and true sight, and farsight...all wonderfully important spells...

now i've always preferred mage heavy partys over cleric heavy parties, but i've been using more and more cleric spells, and they seriously rock...

"5) I always tell myself before I start that I won't take Minsc because he has no quests. But I always end up keeping him because Minsc is Minsc and Boo is Boo. He always leads my group in kills and has some of the best dialogue in the game."

try turning minsc into an archer!!! whoo hoo!!! called shot ...feel the boot of goodness, nasty, evil hamster munching mindflayers!!!

"1) Aerie is strong even in SoA if you use her right. She is my dragon slayer."

a chained contingency implosion triple makes even dragons wet themselves...

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:15 pm

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
now i've always preferred mage heavy partys over cleric heavy parties, but i've been using more and more cleric spells, and they seriously rock...

I can barely imagine the ways you have found to use them... But I'm glad to hear you've "seen the Light".

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
try turning minsc into an archer!!! whoo hoo!!! called shot ...feel the boot of goodness, nasty, evil hamster munching mindflayers!!!

"Arrows! Not words!"

"Jump on my bow while you can, evil; *I* won't be as gentle!"

I'm sorry, it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Idioteque · Post by **Idioteque** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:01 am

Originally posted by VonDondu
I can barely imagine the ways you have found to use them... But I'm glad to hear you've "seen the Light".

"Arrows! Not words!"

"Jump on my bow while you can, evil; *I* won't be as gentle!"

I'm sorry, it just doesn't have the same ring to it.

"Bow meet evil. Evil MEET MY BOW!"

You're right its not the same.

UserUnfriendly · Post by **UserUnfriendly** » Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:30 pm

Minsc: we shall kick the butts of evil wicked beings who stole Imoen, and killed Dynaheir, and Minsc shall boot them so hard their butts will slide up to their ears...they shall wear their butts for ears, and be mocked by both hamsters and rangers!!! right Boo?? (squeek eek!!!)

but yeah...arrows not swords don't sound right either..sigh...

Lafortezza · Post by **Lafortezza** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:06 am

More Questions!

Thanks for all the replies (and the Minsc quotes!)

a few more questions,
1) Lucy the Wyvern in the Adventurers Mart, she never talks to me, even though my reputation is 18, she still "turns away haughtily", is she actually useful for anything?

2) You know all the notes and keys and other little things you pick
up while doing quests, do you actually need to keep these? I'm an Archer and I've got the Ranger Cabin, and I usually just chuck them on the floor.
For things like the Shadow Dragon Ward stone, should I keep it in my inventory?

3) The Lich in the Unseeing Eye Quest, I'm going to tackle him next.
Just wondering about tactics. I'll probably send in lots of summons (skeletons, fire elementals, aerial servants),
maybe try a rush with all my party, blessed, chanted, hasted, protected from evil,
or would I be better sending in one or 2 tanks with protection from evil or magic scrolls?
I don't have any +4 weapons, I've got Lilarcor (Minsc), Flail of Ages (Anomen) and then everyone else has +2 stuff.
Do these sound like reasonable tactics? Any tips to help me?

4)I've pretty much stuck with the same party since the start,
Me (archer), Minsc, Jaheira, Anomen, Aerie, Yoshimo.
Is it possible to kick one of these out to do other NPC quests,
like Korgan, Edwin, etc.? Is this likely to cause problems with the person I tell to temporarily leave?

5) Valygar, can't remember the name of his quest, but I can't start it without him in my party. Do I need to kick someone out and bring him in before I start it?

6) I hope Chelsea win the Premiership, cos Villa (my team) sure haven't got a chance in hell.

7) The spell 'miscast magic', I've tried to cast this a few times in battles against mages, but I dunno if it ever actually works, they always seem to be able to continue casting spells, am I missing something?

Thanks again!

L.

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:45 am

1) Lucy just like window shopping.

No, as far as I know she's got nothing to do in any part of the game. Just don't attack her, as rest of the shop will all go hostile (I think. I've never tried).

2) If you've already killed the Shadow Dragon, you don't need the ward stone. Other keys, scrolls and books are the same; if you've finished the quest relating to them, you can dump them anywhere you like. I usually keep them in a chest in an inn, just in case.

3) The best (easiest) way to kill a lich is to use scrolls of Protection from Magic or Protection from Undead on one or two strong fighters and bash him away. True Sight is important to breach his protections, and make sure rest of the party is well away from the lich. He's got many insta-kill spells on him. More detailed tactics are GameBanshee main website's Baldur's Gate II section under the "strategy". Try there, or "search" button on this forum.

4) You can safely drop Minsc or Yoshimo temporarily. Don't drop anyone you are romancing with. You can drop Aerie temporarily if she's not your romance, as her quest is the one you've already done (circus tent).

5) See above to replace him temporarily (you just need him to open the sphere, though he has special banter during this quest), or kill Valygar and take his body to open the sphere, if you are evil. BTW, I like Valygar over Minsc. He can scout and back stab, and dual yielding Katana is cool. Just give him a strength enhance belt to make him even better.

6) I don't mind as long as it's not Man Utd.

7) Miscast Magic makes enemy magic users to fail their spells, not to stop them casting. I prefer Silence to Miscast Magic, because that stops them from casting, though Silence could silence your own party as well.

Hope it helps.