Finished it, didn't like it.

[Mr Sleep]

Originally posted by MordorMan
Why does the main character always turn out to be a demi-god in the end? This is not a KOTOR comment really, but holds true for other RPG’s as well. I would like to play a RPG once where you remain an ordinary person throughout the game. An ordinary person that just had the will/intelligence/character/stamina to evolve into someone that could challenge the big bosses. No more destinies, please. It ruins the sense of accomplishment. [/b]

Couldn't agree more, a point that always annoys me, I can't actually remember any single player RPG's just featuring a bloke going about his daily business who just happens to save the world by a mysterious set of events and some hard graft. Like Howard Marx

[fable]

I'd personally like to see more RPGs that don't hand you quests with a big neon sign and arrows pointing inward: "Oh, it's you, the nobody who has just come along whom we don't know from anything, and can solve all our problems for us!" It might be nice to just hear an NPC mention a problem, and find an entry an your log about the new quest, instead.

[Jack Dell]

Well, its true that in most RPGs that usually happens, and it doesnt make much sense. In KOTOR's defense, however, you are a jedi, the go-to-guy, so to speak. So I guess it kinda makes more sense here but still remains true to most RPGs.

[maverick8088]

Personally, I have greatly enjoyed the game and am working on the 12th time through. The linear nature of the story did not bother me, but then I am an FPS guy at heart, this was my first foray into RPG(unless you count Deus Ex, its debateable where to classify tht one).

I think that is the thing that has gone unconsidered in this forum, the people who are seeing RPG's in a whole new light. Personally, I feel that is the games greatest accomplishment. I would talk to some friends who were playing Morrowind and they would talk about how you could spend an hour just walking from one place to another. That really turned me off. Even in KOTOR, I was almost constantly hitting my force speed to get from one spot to another. (patience may be a virtue, but I can't wait to get it) KOTOR's greatest accomplishment mat be that it shows that an RPG doesn't have to consume endless hours and involve your entire life in order to reach a conclusion.

IMHO, it is a good thing to attract new blood with a somewhat watered down version, even if the die hard fans of the genre mope about it a little. It allows for forums such as this one to see fresh faces and broadens the horizons for gamers in other genres.

I thank each of you who have mentioned other RPG's as I will be checking these out as possiblities for future purchase.

[Armisael]

If you, as a theoretical developer, 'water down' your game, and it ends up attracting a larger audience (a phenomenon also known as 'appealing to the lowest common denominator'), then why would you ever go back to developing titles like Baldur's Gate? It becomes a poor business decision. For those of us who enjoyed the more complex games, you can understand the objection to a game like this.

And as for me, I feel ripped off when I finish a game in two or three days. The longer a game takes me to complete, the better. I, too, can spend hours going places in Morrowind, but it's not because I can't travel fast, it's because there's so much substance and so many things to explore in Morrowind, even in the most remote areas. Which is undoubtedly a Good Thing.

[niallg]

i agree with hannibal360.....GET OUT OF HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fable]

This appears to refer to the first post on the first page. It's a bit after the fact; but just in case anybody forgets, I'll repeat what I said earlier: "Since Mordorman has placed this thread, here, obviously he intends it for a intelligent discussion of the issues raised. Anybody who can't handle that, frankly, shouldn't post. If you have something useful to contribute, whether in support or in contradiction of his comments, feel free to do so."

The site owner's rules about friendly discussion are enforced on this board. If you don't like a subject, but it's appropriate to the forum and within good taste--don't post.

[Sapith]

KOTOR was my first RPG I played.
I really liked being able to choose your own dialog, create your own character and choose your path (Light/Dark) and the story might change accordingly.
I've only played FPS and Adventure games before so this was mostly all new to me.
I still got loads of fighting (although I think stealth should have been a bit more useful and there should have been steath-ed enemies that didn't just appear when triggered).
There were multiple ways at doing things, e.g open a door with security, computer or just bash it down.
I thought it was great.

I think it's a fabulos game and especially good for getting new people into RPGs since after I bought and played (20 times )KOTOR I really wanted to play more of the same games.
I'm currently thinking of buying another RPG.

When I was playing I didn't actually see the plot twist.

Spoiler

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You're Revan.....until the cutscene. On all subsequent play throughs I couldn't not see that you were Revan. I even noticed where Bastila scutters e.g:
Revan- How did our fates become linked.
Bastila- I....I don't know.

Overall, I liked the storyline alot.

I really don't have any major complaints about this game. I thought it was great. However, some of my friends don't like it because of the fighting system.

[Chanak]

Originally posted by fable
I'd personally like to see more RPGs that don't hand you quests with a big neon sign and arrows pointing inward: "Oh, it's you, the nobody who has just come along whom we don't know from anything, and can solve all our problems for us!" It might be nice to just hear an NPC mention a problem, and find an entry an your log about the new quest, instead.

*Applause* I agree.

The likelihood of that actually happening: 0.0000000000001%

Our brains hunger for challenge, but what's served to us for dinner usually only amounts to a very light snack. That's what I personally found KoTOR to be, having played through it both on the gaming console, and later (hoping it would of course be better) on the PC. It's a nice game in it's own right, but hardly what a hardcore RPG nut wants in a game (which many of us here are). It's too linear and restrictive, offering little in the way of creative interaction. What we are left with is an interactive movie, and that term applies to KoTOR very well, I think. The graphics are stunning, the story great, and the Star Wars universe faithfully upheld by Bioware. They deserve kudos for those things. However, my experience playing through KoTOR 3 times left me wanting much more than the game could deliver.

[Jack Dell]

my stand in the issue of linear or non-linear RPGs is neutral. I have played Morrowind, and I found the sheer amount of quests and such to be extremely refreshing (also, by the way, the fact of creative advancement and a plot development that is very dependant of your actions. However, the amount of material and things to do, as well as major branchings like going vampire and such was so much that in the end I was overwhelmed because, as the kind of guy who likes to do everything, I found it to time consuming leaving me with a bit of regret. The slow travel times in quests that involved going into remote places can be very unstimulating for the inexperienced Morrowind gamer, and to avoid such huge walks was to me one of the first things in my to-do list, so that didnt end up being much of a problem. (enough scrolls solved that). However, I have also enjoyed extremely linear RPGs as much as your next MMORPG. Take Diablo 2 Lod, i found it to be tons of fun without the need of tons of side quests and such. But it is till considered to be an RPG. I like to think of KOTOR as a Diablo 2 with some side quests and many more cutscenes. And I think the purpose of so many movies was to give it the essence of Star Wars movies, which IMO is something they succeded in doing. So I have no major complaints for this game, because people are judging it for something that I don´t think this game ever tried to be. And I had fun with it, accepting it for what it was. If other people bought it expecting something else, they probably just got dissapointed precisely because they were expecting something else. What I am trying to say is that if you had fun (or some fun) with the game, then it is a good game. Of course that if you run it through the filters of other genres, then technically it is not a good game, but what's the point in doing that?

[MordorMan]

Originally posted by Jack Dell
If other people bought it expecting something else, they probably just got dissapointed precisely because they were expecting something else. What I am trying to say is that if you had fun (or some fun) with the game, then it is a good game. Of course that if you run it through the filters of other genres, then technically it is not a good game, but what's the point in doing that?

Quite a few, I would say. The game was marketed as being a RPG, and it was also published by a software house renowned for its high quality RPG's. And if you studied the reviews and maybe also the discussion boards, you would have little reason the except to be disappointed. Add to this the fact that there are many RPG fans waiting for the next good game to hit the shelves (which happens, I don’t know, maybe once every two years?) and you end up with plenty of reasons why someone would buy the game and get disappointed.

By the way, Jack, how did you get that space in your user name? I did not know that was possible.

[Jack Dell]

well, I am not one to constantly be checking reviews and announcements, so sorry if I missed that. Well, at least you share the fact that most dissapointment came from too much expectations, then.

As for the space, I had no problems with it when placing my username, so maybe if you try again it will work, dunno.

[Xandax]

Originally posted by Jack Dell
<snip>
Take Diablo 2 Lod, i found it to be tons of fun without the need of tons of side quests and such. But it is till considered to be an RPG. I like to think of KOTOR as a Diablo 2 with some side quests and many more cutscenes. <snip>

I doubt many people actually consider Diablo to be a RPG except maybe for Blizzard and some of the fans of Diablo. But that is a different discussion - but I agree with your comparisson - I felt I might as well play diablo (although with fewer enermis to hack through), and that is not an aspect that appealed to me in a roleplaying game.

The box says a "roleplay experience" - and I didn't once feel it was a roleplaying experience, more then I feel that taking on the "role" of somebody in a FPS game is a roleplaying experience.

Originally posted by Armisael
If you, as a theoretical developer, 'water down' your game, and it ends up attracting a larger audience (a phenomenon also known as 'appealing to the lowest common denominator'), then why would you ever go back to developing titles like Baldur's Gate? It becomes a poor business decision. For those of us who enjoyed the more complex games, you can understand the objection to a game like this.

This is imo a very good point, and is one of the fears I have for the RPG-genre.

There is also the problem that to many "new" people to the genre will think and expect this (KotOR and Diablo) level of roleplaying to be what is expected of a roleplaying game, withouth haveing tried for instance PlaneScape: Torment, Baldurs Gate series or some of the older RPGs. Thus again - why should complexity be added to CRPGs if people expect "less" roleplaying.

[maverick8088]

I think I see the problem here and where this discussion becomes cyclical. The hard core RPG fans dislike seeing the inevitable "watering down" of the product, while the newbies to the genre enjoyed being able to play a game that, while technically a RPG, was not as intimidating as a Morrowind, Baldur's Gate, etc., etc.

The assertion that this should not be labeled an RPG is ludicrous, It fits the profile. You start with a basic character, build him to your specs, go through the game as though you were in the characters shoes.

And I think the purpose of so many movies was to give it the essence of Star Wars movies, which IMO they succeeded in doing

I agree with this statement, as Star Wars is a fast paced universe with many fans who will buy the game just because of the words Star Wars attached to the title. For that reason alone they had to water it down. If they had produced the SW version of Morrowind, 90%of the SW fan base would be up in arms for it not holding true to the pace and timing of the movies. Many fans wanted an oppurtunity to make life choices and play a role in the SW universe. If They created a complex game that newbies couldn't get into they would have failed. When you consider those constraints, I think they did a helluva job.


Those of us playing their first RPG with KOTOR, may never move on to the more complex games, but many of us will. I just started playing Baldur's Gate, (had to finish JK:JA first)and the jury is still out. If you already enjoy the hard ones that's great, but the point is, just because a game is considered easy or lame by the hard cores doesn't mean it is the end of a genre, or even a bad game, just not to our tastes

[maverick8088]

BTW, I have nothing against Morrowind, if you like it that's great. It's simply one of the few RPG's I have any experience with. That, and Baldur's Gate which i just started yesterday, are my entire frame of reference for the genre.

[Jack Dell]

Well, as I said in my previous post Im up for any good game that provides me entertainment. I have played all kinds of RPGs and have learned to appreciate different aspects in each type. I do agree with most hard-core RPG gamers that games like Baldur's Gate or Morrowind mop the floor with other kinds of RPGs. Lucky for me, I didn't buy KOTOR anyway, it was actually lent to me, so I had no regrets and quite a bit of fun. Of course it wasn't an ideal gaming experience, far from it in fact, but it manages to provide enough entertainment for me to like it, even when acknowledging all it's flaws. Though I think I understand why someone who actually payed for it and expected a lot more from it (like most RPG gamers in this thread) would get annoyed.
Still, for a Star Wars franchise, the "watering down", was far from unexpected. Even though it is a good game, you'd have to agree that most star wars video games through history were never beyond good, certainly enjoyable, but none really stood out. So maybe this was bound to happen anyway, and you shouldn't attack Bioware for something that was kinda inevitable. Star Wars is after all, all about the money, and it certainly did get a broader audience at the expense of a minority of unhappy gamers. It still sucks, though, for the fewer, more hardcore gamers.
On a happier note, for those who own the PC game, it is very probable that in the next patches the game will be improved, because probably most bugs and factors deteriorating enjoyment (among those the low difficulty) will be fixed. Maybe add a few other interesting elements gradually. For the XBOX owner I dont know, but Im not very confident in the Xbox live downloadable stuff. Maybe Im too optimistic, but it might happen.

[python]

i enjoyed the game on a whole, i think the game was not intented for the more 'hardcore' or addict gamer that im sure most of us r, u cannot compare this game 2 morrowind for instance as they r 2 different games with the same genre, this game intended u not 2 get sidetracked and confused but 2 follow the simplistic plot.
no replay value on this game at all... at all, y would u wont 2 start another game with another charecter that isnt a jedi they all the same neway, poeple bought it beacuse it looked pretty and with lightsabers in it who could resist. b nice if it had a online section perhaps then poeple wouldnt flame it so much as u could perhaps advance further rather that not being able 2 go past a certain mildstone.

[Aegis]

Actually, the addition of an online feature, I think, would've killed the last traces of the game, because in order to add such a part of they game, resources would have to have been taken away from other aspects of the game, thus resulting a combination of poor gaming. That's my call on the online feature.

[python]

i would dissagree perhaps they would of had 2 delay the game 6 months but i dont think ne1 was really anticipating KOTOR that much neways althoguh it shaped up as a nice game, online factor like in jedi knight 2 that online part was awsome get me playing 4 at least another year probally just on that

[maverick8088]

Still, for a Star Wars franchise, the "watering down", was far from unexpected. Even though it is a good game, you'd have to agree that most star wars video games through history were never beyond good, certainly enjoyable, but none really stood out.

Uuuumm.... I don't know, Jedi Knight? Ring a bell? Until Halo, IMHO the best FPS ever. Definite top ten all time.

So maybe this was bound to happen anyway, and you shouldn't attack Bioware for something that was kinda inevitable. Star Wars is after all, all about the money,

George Lucas is all about the money, that is for sure. He traded the vision and integrity of the first three for JarJar Binks. I think it is unfair to cast a bad light on the franchise because the owner suddenly can't see past his wallet. That's like saying Lord Of The Rings is shallow and meaningless because they made action figures and videogames based on it