Demiliches invurneable?

[Gauda]

Those who have played BG2, know how scary demiliches can be (although the demiliches in BG2 only used but a fraction of the powers they really have, a demilich is in PNP such a creature of power that even the gods fear them). They have little hp, but are insanely hard to damage, gaining insightbonus equal to HD to armorclass and DR 30/- (Vorpal weapons bypass this DR, but deals half damage regardless). That's okay, Demiliches have little hp, and are supposed to be one of the if not the most fearsome creature through out the multiverse. And thus are supposed to be extremely frightening and very hard to kill. What really bugs me though is that they can AT WILL as a spell-like ability cast HARM, I mean, WHAT THE **** IS UP WITH THAT? If i pit one of these on the PCs in a session I can simply harm the demilich each time he goes low on HP, and he instantly regains all his HP. Hell I can even cast it defensively (not the the PCs would damage the lich enough to break the concentration) and not even needing to roll a dice unless you play a "smart" wizard who never took any skills in concentration. A fight like that could literally never end, and would become extremely boring in the end. ("okay guys, the demilich have used all his memorized spell, and is now harming himself once again" "WOHOO, we get to hack the demilichs' HP down again doing 3 damage per hit down to low hp for the fourtheen time!!").

What am is supposed to do? "Accidentely" forgetting to harm the demilich? I mean, a creature with 30+ intelligence does not just forget things like that, it never happens and it would be wrong of me to do it. The only way you can possibly beat a demilich is to take him in a single round, and no party though however powerfull should ever be able to kills a demilich in the first round.

I don't know what the creators of the Epic level handbook thought when they did this an At-will ability, they should make it a twice, or even thrice a day ability, that would be fair.

[Mulligan]

To me it looks like your mixing demilich 2ndAd&d stats into 3E/3.5 Ed. rules..

If you play 3Ed, be sure to upgrade the liches accordingly.

A normal lich is also hard to kill, but no match for a high-level/ Epic level group. I only have a 3Ed monster manual at hand and there's no mention of Demiliches there, but i assume the Epic book or other monster manuals have them.

The ability to harm at will is the main problem. A a DM i would say that ability is flawed, not properly balanced be the rules staff. A DM can do anything he pleases, so changing it to 3/day or so that the lich cannot target itself is fair. After all the party is still hard pressed as the lich now will Harm a PC instead each round.

If the lich uses harm on itself you have a stalemate situation, but it can still be defeated. Clerics/Druids can set ready-actions to cast their own Heal spells after the lich to bring it down again.

Antimagic Fields can deny the ability altogether. And a spell at will is still a spell (likely a spell-like ability) and can be countered with right preparations. A Limited Wish could, carefully formulated, deny the lich the ability to heal for a short time, and thats all an Epic group needs, a short time.

You also should tie some abilities of the lich to it's Phylactery. Destroying the Phylactery has always been important to get through a lichs' defences.

For the party, careful planning is required and tons of research. One does not stumble upon a Demilich by chance or as a Wandering Monster, that would be unfair. And the Party would have to be HIGH level.

There are other monsters that are near impossible to kill, The Great Wyrms and the Tarrasque i.e. These too can be done with, but it's extremely hard. Still, it can be done.

If the Pc's get to a stalemate situation they could always retreat. They can't hurt the Demilich any more than it can hurt them, but they are one experience richer. Back to do more research and planning before trying again.

All spells must be explored. Sometimes low-level spells are forgotten. What if the Pc's managed to put a L1 spell like Random Action on it at the end and that saved the day ? Wouldn't that be fun?

Just some thoughts.... If you have a high-lvl group, why not give it a try ? Players sometimes come up with incredible ideas. Let them research a lot and have a go.

Good luck

[Mr.Waesel]

Remember: Every time a Demilich uses harm, he "wastes" a turn. And A group of properly-built pc's can do well over 150 damage each round. The only stupid thing is that soul suck ability, since it is dependant on whole HD in stead of half HD. I'd houserule that. And a demilich can be turned easily

[Rob-hin]

So he's not at hard as presumed after all.
Never encounted one myself though.

[Mr.Waesel]

Just so y'all know, here are its stats from the SRD:

SRD
DEMILICH
Diminutive Undead
Hit Dice: 21d12 (130 hp)
Initiative: +7 (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: Fly 180 ft. (perfect)
AC: 51 (+4 size, +3 Dex, +5 natural armor, +8 bracers of armor, +2 ring of protection, +21 insight)
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/-2
Attack: Touch +35 (10d6+20 plus paralyzing touch) melee
Full Attack: Touch +35 (10d6+20 plus paralyzing touch) melee
Space/Reach: 1 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Trap the soul, fear aura, paralyzing touch, 21st-level wizard spellcaster, Perfect Automatic Still Spell, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Magic immunity, phylactery transference, turn resistance +20, DR 15/Epic and bludgeoning, undead traits, acid resistance 20, fire resistance 20, sonic resistance 20, immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +12, Will +17
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16 (with gloves), Con –, Int 39 (with headband), Wis 24, Cha 20
Skills: Concentration +25, Craft (alchemy) +34, Hide +35, Knowledge (arcana, religion, the planes) +34, Knowledge (history) +26, Listen +27, Move Silently +23, Search +34, Sense Motive +27, Spellcraft +36, Spot +27
Feats: Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item, Enlarge Spell, Heighten Spell, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Scribe Scroll, Spell Penetration, Toughness
Epic Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell, Blinding Speed, Improved Spell Capacity (10th), Tenacious Magic (any)
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 29
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Demiliches speak the languages they knew as liches and as living creatures.
A demilich’s natural weapons are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Combat
Trap the Soul (Su): A demilich can trap the souls of up to eight living creatures per day. To use this power, it selects any target it can see within 300 feet. The target is allowed a Fortitude saving throw (DC 36). If the target makes its saving throw, it gains four negative levels (this does not count as a use of trap the soul). If the target fails its save, the soul of the target is instantly drawn from its body and trapped within one of the gems incorporated into the demilich’s form. The gem gleams for 24 hours, indicating the captive soul within. The soulless body collapses in a mass of corruption and molders in a single round, reduced to dust. If left to its own devices, the demilich slowly devours the soul over 24 hours—at the end of that time the soul is completely absorbed, and the victim is forever gone. If the demilich is overcome before the soul is eaten, crushing the gem releases the soul, after which time it is free to seek the afterlife or be returned to its body by the use of either resurrection, true resurrection, clone, or miracle. A potential victim protected by a death ward spell is not immune to trap the soul, but receives a +5 bonus on its Fortitude saving throw and is effective against the level loss on a successful save. The DC is Charisma-based
Fear Aura (Su): Demiliches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the demilich must succeed at a Will save (DC 19) or be affected as though by fear as cast by a 21st-level caster. The DC is Charisma-based.
Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature a demilich touches must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 36) or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim. The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a demilich seems dead, though a successful Spot check (DC 20) or Heal check (DC 15) reveals that the victim is still alive.
Spells: The demilich can cast any spells it could cast as a lich. This sample demilich was a 21st-level wizard (spells per day: 4/12/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/3). The last three spell slots are 10th-level slots and available for 0–9th level metamagic spells.
Perfect Automatic Still Spell (Ex): A demilich can cast all the spells it knows without gestures.
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—alter self, astral projection, create greater undead, create undead, death knell, enervation, greater dispel magic, harm (usually used to heal itself ), summon monster I–IX, telekinesis, weird; 2/day—greater planar ally. Demiliches use these abilities as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level, but the save DCs are all 36. The DC is Charisma-based.
Magic Immunity (Ex): Demiliches are immune to all magical and supernatural effects, except as follows. A shatter spell affects a demilich as if it were a crystalline creature, but deals half the damage normally indicated. A dispel evil spell deals 3d6 points of damage (Fort save for half damage). Holy smite spells affect demiliches normally.
Phylactery Transference (Su): Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich’s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply. The sample demilich “wears” bracers of armor +8, headband of intellect +6, pink Ioun stone, ring of wizardry I, ring of protection +2, and gloves of Dexterity +2.
Undead Traits: Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death, effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals. Not at risk of death from massive dam-age, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised; resurrection works only if creature is willing.
Immunities (Ex): Demiliches are immune to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.

Notice how it "carries" a pink ioun stone, which grants a bonus to constitution. Int 39 my ass.

[Rob-hin]

*gulp*

Where did you get these stats MrWeasel?

[Mr.Waesel]

from the SRD.

[THAC0]

Linkage

[Rob-hin]

Cool name, THAC0.
Thanx for the link.

[Gauda]

Originally posted by Mr.Waesel
Remember: Every time a Demilich uses harm, he "wastes" a turn. And A group of properly-built pc's can do well over 150 damage each round. The only stupid thing is that soul suck ability, since it is dependant on whole HD in stead of half HD. I'd houserule that. And a demilich can be turned easily

Well, unless the PCs carry super hacking "20+ greatsword of demilich slaying" the average fighter will not do any more than 5 damage to the demilich per hit, if he carries some very powerfull artifacts. So he would only need to "waste" his round every 5 round or so, and since casters can't basicly harm him being immune to every spell except for dispel evil and holy smite. But of course I could let the PCs through careful research know of this.

About turning, yes if you have a lvl 50 cleric If you have not noticed demiliches have turn resistance +20 which is cumulative if I'm not wrong with the lichs' turnresistance +4.

[Gauda]

Originally posted by Mulligan
To me it looks like your mixing demilich 2ndAd&d stats into 3E/3.5 Ed. rules..

If you play 3Ed, be sure to upgrade the liches accordingly.

A normal lich is also hard to kill, but no match for a high-level/ Epic level group. I only have a 3Ed monster manual at hand and there's no mention of Demiliches there, but i assume the Epic book or other monster manuals have them.

The ability to harm at will is the main problem. A a DM i would say that ability is flawed, not properly balanced be the rules staff. A DM can do anything he pleases, so changing it to 3/day or so that the lich cannot target itself is fair. After all the party is still hard pressed as the lich now will Harm a PC instead each round.

If the lich uses harm on itself you have a stalemate situation, but it can still be defeated. Clerics/Druids can set ready-actions to cast their own Heal spells after the lich to bring it down again.

Antimagic Fields can deny the ability altogether. And a spell at will is still a spell (likely a spell-like ability) and can be countered with right preparations. A Limited Wish could, carefully formulated, deny the lich the ability to heal for a short time, and thats all an Epic group needs, a short time.

You also should tie some abilities of the lich to it's Phylactery. Destroying the Phylactery has always been important to get through a lichs' defences.

For the party, careful planning is required and tons of research. One does not stumble upon a Demilich by chance or as a Wandering Monster, that would be unfair. And the Party would have to be HIGH level.

There are other monsters that are near impossible to kill, The Great Wyrms and the Tarrasque i.e. These too can be done with, but it's extremely hard. Still, it can be done.

If the Pc's get to a stalemate situation they could always retreat. They can't hurt the Demilich any more than it can hurt them, but they are one experience richer. Back to do more research and planning before trying again.

All spells must be explored. Sometimes low-level spells are forgotten. What if the Pc's managed to put a L1 spell like Random Action on it at the end and that saved the day ? Wouldn't that be fun?

Just some thoughts.... If you have a high-lvl group, why not give it a try ? Players sometimes come up with incredible ideas. Let them research a lot and have a go.

Good luck

I was actually just comparing the demiliches in bg2 to the ones in 3rd edition. I actually don't have any 2nd ed rule books so it would be quite a feat of me to do so, having close to no knowledge about the 2nd ed rules

You are of course right, a DM don't just pit a demilich as a random monster to the PCs ( as you often see in CRPG(Watchers keep anyone?)). And the Players should have much knowledge about their adversery and how he fights and the importance of destroying his psylactery. Great wyrms and tarrasque are two very hard adverseries yes, but they still can't throw heal spells at will . If antimagicfield is a spell (forgive me if I'm wrong I don't have the rulebooks here) it will not work, since the demilich is immune to nearly all spells. A wish would work yes, I've never thought of that, though I would not let a limited wish spell work . Perhaps through some artifical means, the PCs could be able to make a dead-magic zone which extended 30 feets or so, surprising the demilich not making it able to fly out of the zone in time. Yeah that would be the solution for smart PCs .

Thanks for alot of tips though, that really helped, at the moment the pcs are only lvl 8, but my thoughts was in the future.

[Aegis]

Spell resistance is only effective if directly cast upon the target. In other words, and antimagic field would wreck havok on a Demilich, simply because it's not a targetted spell, it's an area affect. I know thats how my level 18-average party was able to kill a demi-lich (by pure luck, as well). We did some fun little things: Antimagic field, Silence radius 15', heal spells, plus a level 18 Half ORc Barbarian, and a level 19 Elven Fighter with a longsword +3/+5 against undead.

The lich couldn't cast magic (though, after the initial volley, neither could we ), but the it was enough to take him out with some lucky natural 20's.

Just another note, Tarresques are harder. Much harder than demi liches. The fact, as I recall, a Tarresque actually requires the wish spell to kill the bugger Though, that was 2nd ed. Perhaps things have changed somewhat.

[Gauda]

Wow, don't see how a lvl 18 party could even touch a lich, I mean, the guy has dr 30/- They must have carried some very powerfull weapons indeed.

And yes, tarrasque still need a wish spell, however if you do an average 60 damage per round with your entire party (you should do 100) he will fall in a couple of hours, if you can take his hard beats that is . Tarrasque cant flee either being extremely slow, a demilich however can fly PERFECTLY at 180 ft, thrice two times the speed of a normal moving character. Meaning that he can fly out of sight in a single round, even a hasted lvl 20 monk hardly matches that, as fast yes but can't fly.

[Aegis]

Read the rules on the tarresque. It states that the Wish spell is required to kill it. It's not just a matter of whittling down it's hp.

As for the demilich. The 30/- damage reduction only counts towards regular weapons. Any weapon with a +1 or more can bypass the damage reduction. Two level 18+ fighters with a +1 weapon will hurt the bugger. And considering the level 18 Half Orc with a great axe +2 was doing about 12-20 damage a turn after modifiers, and the Elf fighter with his longsword was doing about 8-12 a turn, plus the initial burst of healing spells before the anti magic was cast, it's not to hard to do.

It's all about creative planning. I mean, the DM wasn't expecting us to use a spell as simple as Silence radius '15. Essentially, we casted that spell on the half orc, to avoid the high spell resistance of the demilich, and marched the half orc in close, thus nullifying all magic casting within 15'. During the turn we did that, we had two clerics bombard him with high level healing, which spell resistence is kind enough to ignore , which brought him down quite a bit of HP. After the first volley, our mage threw up an antimagic field, and then all five of us closed in, and proceded to beat the bugger down. Of course, we lost the half orc, a cleric and our mage in the process (which our remaining cleric was kind enough to bring back eventually), but we nailed the bugger, and got some good loot and xp in the process, bringing us into Epic levels, and ending our campaign.

[Mr.Waesel]

Originally posted by Aegis
Spell resistance is only effective if directly cast upon the target. In other words, and antimagic field would wreck havok on a Demilich, simply because it's not a targetted spell, it's an area affect.

I agree that the wording of SR in the SRD is somewhat vague, Individual area spell descriptions say SR: yes for a reason.

Originally posted by Aegis
As for the demilich. The 30/- damage reduction only counts towards regular weapons. Any weapon with a +1 or more can bypass the damage reduction

SRD
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su): A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
The entry indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability.
Some monsters are vulnerable to piercing, bludgeoning, or slashing damage.
Some monsters are vulnerable to certain materials, such as alchemical silver, adamantine, or cold-forged iron. Attacks from weapons that are not made of the correct material have their damage reduced, even if the weapon has an enhancement bonus.
Some monsters are vulnerable to magic weapons. Any weapon with at least a +1 magical enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls overcomes the damage reduction of these monsters. Such creatures’ natural weapons (but not their attacks with weapons) are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
A few very powerful monsters are vulnerable only to epic weapons; that is, magic weapons with at least a +6 enhancement bonus. Such creatures’ natural weapons are also treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Some monsters are vulnerable to chaotic-, evil-, good-, or lawful-aligned weapons. When a cleric casts align weapon, affected weapons might gain one or more of these properties, and certain magic weapons have these properties as well. A creature with an alignment subtype (chaotic, evil, good, or lawful) can overcome this type of damage reduction with its natural weapons and weapons it wields as if the weapons or natural weapons had an alignment (or alignments) that match the subtype(s) of the creature.
When a damage reduction entry has a dash (–) after the slash, no weapon negates the damage reduction.
A few creatures are harmed by more than one kind of weapon. A weapon of either type overcomes this damage reduction.
A few other creatures require combinations of different types of attacks to overcome their damage reduction. A weapon must be both types to overcome this damage reduction. A weapon that is only one type is still subject to damage reduction.

Emphasis mine.

[Gauda]

Originally posted by Aegis
Read the rules on the tarresque. It states that the Wish spell is required to kill it. It's not just a matter of whittling down it's hp.

As for the demilich. The 30/- damage reduction only counts towards regular weapons. Any weapon with a +1 or more can bypass the damage reduction. Two level 18+ fighters with a +1 weapon will hurt the bugger. And considering the level 18 Half Orc with a great axe +2 was doing about 12-20 damage a turn after modifiers, and the Elf fighter with his longsword was doing about 8-12 a turn, plus the initial burst of healing spells before the anti magic was cast, it's not to hard to do.

It's all about creative planning. I mean, the DM wasn't expecting us to use a spell as simple as Silence radius '15. Essentially, we casted that spell on the half orc, to avoid the high spell resistance of the demilich, and marched the half orc in close, thus nullifying all magic casting within 15'. During the turn we did that, we had two clerics bombard him with high level healing, which spell resistence is kind enough to ignore , which brought him down quite a bit of HP. After the first volley, our mage threw up an antimagic field, and then all five of us closed in, and proceded to beat the bugger down. Of course, we lost the half orc, a cleric and our mage in the process (which our remaining cleric was kind enough to bring back eventually), but we nailed the bugger, and got some good loot and xp in the process, bringing us into Epic levels, and ending our campaign.

I'm afraid that you are very wrong with damage reduction when there is a - behind the DR it means that regardless of enchantment, even if its a +30 weapon, it wount bypass.

[Aegis]

-EDIT-

Dreaded 3.5 strikes again. This is one reason why I am not fond of the recent rules. IMHO, Wizards really gorfed the system. C'est la vie.

[Mr.Waesel]

It was like this in 3.0 as well.

[Aegis]

Regardless, my general dislike of the new rules stands, exactly for the numerous ambigous rules, and rule changes made.

[Gauda]

Regarding the changes made to DR, I agree, you have to carry a golf bag of each weapon consisting of a dozen different materials to be able to hurt the various monsters.