best classes for the subraces?

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:52 am

using the info from the thread about the best stats for each class, I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are for which class best takes advatage of the advantages/disadvantages of the various races?

humans - could be anything, I would think that the extra skill pts and bonus feat would be best suited to a fighter, but could possibly be useful for a rogue to get most of the rogue skills, or also a spellcaster to get all of the useful rogue skills...

aasimer - +2 wis/cha, elemental resistance, ECL - paladin comes to mind for this one, though I would think a cleric or a monk would also be able to take advatage of the bonuses the best, perhaps also a bard

tiefling - +2 int/dex, +hide/move sliently, elemental resistance, -2 cha, ECL - rogue comes to mind for this because of the bonuses, possibly also a spellcaster?

shield dwarf - +2 con, + save throws, -2 cha - this seems to be best suited to a front line tank, probably a fighter

gold dwarf - same as shield dwarf, but -2 dex instead of cha - seems to be a fighter as well, though perhaps he could be a bard? or maybe a paladin?

duergar - +2 con, + move silently, invisibility 1/day, -4 cha, ECL - seems to be best suited as a fighter as well, possibly a rogue, or maybe can be dual classed as a fighter/rogue to provide the party with rogue duties and eliminate the rogue from the party...

moon elf - +2 dex, + search, -2 con - seems best suited as a rogue or a spellcaster, possibly a cleric who never sees melee action

drow - +2 dex/int/cha, spell resistance, -2 con, ECL - seems best suited as a sorc/wizard, possibly a bard as well. could also be a rogue-type char. probably not a front-line fighter due to the -2 con...

wild elf - +2 dex, + search, -2 int - seems best suited as a rogue or missle support char

lightfoot halfling - +2 dex, + move silently, -2 str - not a frontline fighter, but possibly a good rogue, maybe a good spellcaster as well, might also be useful to dual class with some rogue levels to eliminate the rogue from your party

strongheart halfling - same as lightfoot, but get extra feat at start, and lose bonus for throwing weapons - probably same as above

ghostwise halfling - almost same as other halflings, has bigger throwing weapons bonus, can set natural snares - possibly a druid or ranger/rogue? dont see them as a frontlie fighter, either...

half-elves - + search, + ench saves, immunity to sleep spells - possibly as a fighter/rogue, it seems to me that the + ench saves and sleep immunity are not worth giving up the extra skill pts that a human-only gives you...

half-orc - +2 str, darkvision, -2 int/cha - definitely a frontline fighter and tank

gnome - +2 con, + alchemy, -2 str - seems it could be a good cleric or possibly a monk or druid, though I would think that -2 str would keep the player from wanting him in the front lines...

svirfneblin - +2 dex/wis, spell resistance, natural spell ability, -2str, -4 cha, ECL (worst ECL) - seems best suited to be a cleric or perhaps a monk... definitely not the talker of the group, and shouldnt be a frontline fighter.

thoughts from others?

also, is the tradeoff of bonuses, natural resistances, spell resistance, etc worth the ECL penalty, in your opinoin?

if so, is it better to have a party of all ECL char so that they progress at about the same rate? or is it better to just put one or two in with the rest of your party non-ECL races?

I heard somewhere else that there is a quest reward book that will award 10k exp to whoever reads it, is that something that would be beneficial to just give to your ECL party member to try to get them to catch up a little bit?

thanks once again...

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:15 am

Actually, if you check each race it gives the favoured classes

Human - any class
Aasimir - paladin
Tiefling - rogue
Shield dwarf - fighter
Gold dwarf - fighter
Grey dwarf - fighter
Moon elf - wizard
Male Drow - wizard
Female Drow - cleric
Wild elf - sorcerer
Rock gnome - illusionist
Deep gnome - illusionist
Half elf - any class
Half orc - barbarian
Lightfoor halfling - rogue
Strongheart halfling - rogue
Ghostwise halfling - barbarian

If you intend to dual class a character that is not human or half elf, it is important to make sure that one of their classes is a favoured class to avoid the penalty. If you choose to dual and not take a favoured class, you will need to make sure that the two classes are never more than one level apart or the penalty will be incurred.

I heard somewhere else that there is a quest reward book that will award 10k exp to whoever reads it, is that something that would be beneficial to just give to your ECL party member to try to get them to catch up a little bit?

This book is not a reward, it will cost you in excess of 100K

Regarding ECL characters, their effective level is comparable - if not higher than the none ECL party members. Their actual level is usually lagging one behind though. The only place I have found this limiting is not having access to higher level spells for the ECL spellcasters until after a human/half elf race of the same class would have achieved them. That said only one of my spellcasters is none ECL - my druid is half elf, to allow one level of barbarian (for rage in shapechanged form without the penalty of dualling a none favoured class)

Krysalyn · Post by **Krysalyn** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:27 am

Originally posted by Yshania
Actually, if you check each race it gives the favoured classes

If you intend to dual class a character that is not human or half elf, it is important to make sure that one of their classes is a favoured class to avoid the penalty. If you choose to dual and not take a favoured class, you will need to make sure that the two classes are never more than one level apart or the penalty will be incurred.

yes, I realize that they list the favored classes, but as you state, I thought it only applied when dual or multi-classing, to avoid the exp penalty.

I was sort of asking if those "favored" classes were actually the class that best took advatage of the advantages/disadvantages, or if some of the races were better suited for classes other than their preferred class, especially if you choose not to multi-class them (and if you did multiclass, then definitely take at least one level in the favored class to avoid the exp penalty)

for example, the deep gnome's favored class is an illusionist wizard, but the bonus is for dex/wis, and the wizard has their spells based on int, correct? so it seems to make more sense to me to make the deep gnome a cleric or monk to take advantage of the bonuses, as cleric's get their spells based on wisdom, correct? and monk's can get an AC bonus based on wisdom?

that is where I was going with the question...

Originally posted by Yshania

This book is not a reward, it will cost you in excess of 100K Regarding ECL characters, their effective level is comparable - if not higher than the none ECL party members. Their actual level is usually lagging one behind though. The only place I have found this limiting is not having access to higher level spells for the spellcasters until after a human/half elf race of the same class would have achieved them.

ok, that's right, the book is bought, not given... also, I believe that a more powerful book (higher exp award) is available in HoF mode?

so the difference in hit pts from the ECL races being slightly behind is not that big of a factor?

would the race bonus be worth not having access to higher spells earlier? like the drow spell resistance, for example?

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 12:16 pm

@Krysalyn - Ok, my apologies - I thought that one was a little too easy

Alright, if you are considering single class characters I would look at (discounting favoured classes):

Aasimir - druid/cleric/monk/sorceress/bard
Tiefling - wizard (using dex bonus for missile weapons) you would need to compensate the charisma hit if you fancied a Tiefling bard or sorcerer
Duergar - rogue
Moon elf - rogue
Drow - any spellcaster/rogue
Wild elf - rogue/ranger
Deep gnome - cleric/druid/monk

Only from a role playing point of view I find it difficult to picture some of the above

For instance a drow rogue does not sound right, assassin perhaps? if the class was available. Neither does a wild elf rogue sound right, but a wild elf ranger does. Personally, I am not impressed with the ranger class though, other than the automatic dual weilding ability

I think there are good reasons for going with the favoured classes, for instance my drow cleric can wear heavy armour and tanks effectively, despite the constitution hit.

Regarding the tome, since I haven't played in HoF yet I don't know if there is a better one available but it would make sense.

Regarding the hit point issue of ECL, I can't say I have noticed this an issue except with my Tiefling rogue who seems to cop it more than any other character. As I said, my drow cleric is a competent tank, she is just slower to gain the levels in order to access the higher spells sooner. That said she remains one of my most effective characters and I have not had any reason to worry about her slower levelling

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 3:42 pm

the hof book gives 20,ooo xp.

non favoured classes that work very well -

tiefling wizard - the high dex & int, plus minor resistances.

asamir sorcs - high cha & minor resistances

1/2 orcs - favoured class is barbarian, but their high strength favours any melee intensive class.

dwarves - make great clerics their higher con & saving throw bonuses make them very durable.

elves - their natural bow's & long swords make them great for any class w/ limited weapon feats. (cleric, wizard, sorc, monk, ect ect)

humans - any odd multi combos, or classes that require a lot of skill points.

the little people still get typecast halflings & gnomes.

exception the deep gnome monk.

i'm wondering how a deep gnome ftr would do...

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:28 pm

drow - +2 dex/int/cha, spell resistance, -2 con, ECL - seems best suited as a sorc/wizard, possibly a bard as well. could also be a rogue-type char. probably not a front-line fighter due to the -2 con...

I can't honestly see why anybody would give up some useful spellcasting levels to make a drow into a wizard. The class gains nothing from the drow advantages to dexterity to charisma--whereas the sorc and bard could certainly benefit. Mind, you can play it as you like. I just don't see any advantage in that.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Tue Jan 07, 2003 10:42 pm

fable - the drow get an int boost too, they make just as good a wizard as they would a bard or sorc.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:19 pm

Originally posted by koz-ivan

fable - the drow get an int boost too, they make just as good a wizard as they would a bard or sorc.

I agree, I had a drow necromancer in a previous game, and she was hardier than my current wild elf conjurer or moon elf sorceress

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Jan 08, 2003 4:25 pm

Yeah, you're right: they also get +2 to Intelligence. I'd forgotten that part. No wonder they get penalized 2 levels instead of 1.

The Z · Post by **The Z** » Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:57 pm

A quick question...do ECL races have a slight disadvantage in the game due to their level deficiency? Or is it balanced out by their stat increased. For me, having characters lagging a little in levels compared to the rest of a party seems rather daunting, especially since I've heard that the XP cap is hard to reach with a full party which is not in HoF. Plus, it means that they aren't able to cast some high level spells, doesn't it (if they're a spellcaster)?

Lizzt · Post by **Lizzt** » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:21 am

removed

shakuhachi · Post by **shakuhachi** » Wed May 05, 2004 6:18 am

a good reason (the best i think) to use drow is roleplaying. for a challenge play an all drow party. or all whatever race...as long as it is for roleplaying. i have an all drow party and the game is quite different this time thru.

Mr.Waesel · Post by **Mr.Waesel** » Thu May 06, 2004 2:41 am

If D&D has taught me anything, it's that creatures with ECL shouldn't be spellcasters. Caster level is EVERYTHING, worth way more than +2 to your casting stat.

shakuhachi · Post by **shakuhachi** » Sat May 08, 2004 1:11 am

my drow wizard Zil'Zaxa (i have 2, so i can afford to) is effective at melee. he doesn't hang w/ the 2 fighters at dealing damage (noone ever does), but he gets damaged way less, and can throw the occasional evocation spells for dramatic effect. too bad "shield" d/n work as it should (shield bonus to ac.)

shakuhachi · Post by **shakuhachi** » Sat May 08, 2004 2:09 am

i also used 2 methods for evenning up the +2 ECL. i rested a bit to fight extra monsters and didn't level up until i had almost enough xp for 2 levels, gaining more xp per battle.