Why not?

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:06 am

I'm just wondering why a character is not allowed to carry spears with shields. I mean I know that in game a spear is considered a 2 handed weapon. But if you think realisticly spears can be wielded in one hand and shield with another, think about almost any historically based RTS game and I am sure you will find at least one spear unit that has a shield. So why does Morrowind(or for that matter every other RPG) does not allow spears to be wielded with one hand?

Birdsfly · Post by **Birdsfly** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 12:26 pm

to be able to use a spear effictively with one hand, it would have to be lighter, or shorter and therefore do less damage. If you consider the fact that the head of the spear is about 1 meter from where you hold, that spear feels a lot heavier than it really is!

In short: light, less damaging spear=one handed
heavy, HUGE spear of destruction=2 hands (AT LEAST!)

Hope that helped!

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:10 pm

Well true, but most spears I come across in this game are about as powerful as a toothpick, with the exception of the one you get from Sheogorath for doing his quest no spear can do that much physical damage(I'm not talking about enahcntments).

In fact I'm pretty sure that most average, 1-handed, long swords outdamage the best spears.

So the spears seem to be pretty weak, and they don't even look that long.

Does anyone know any mod that enables spears to be wielded with shields?

Anonononomous · Post by **Anonononomous** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:32 pm

I don't know what you're alking about. I have a trusty glass halberd that's pretty powerful. And aren't one-handed spears more to be used as javelins? I don't think that would work very well in Morrowind. It's like with arrows. In big battles in real life archers would go in and not carry many arrows. They would just pick up new ones as they advanced.

Opalescence · Post by **Opalescence** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:54 pm

Some desert civilizations actually have loads of camels carrying packs of arrows and other ammunition and supplies on their backs.

In real life, archers are usually just a utility group and almost always run out of ammunition before a battle is over...

It is extremely difficult to make any other kind of maneuver with a long spear when you're also wearing a shield. The Roman Legionnaire was only effective because a Legion consisted of many men presenting their wall of shields and forest of spears at the enemy; a single Legionnaire would never have been equally effective in a 1-on-1 combat; he'd be too weighed down by heavy armor, giant shield, and long spear. Also, even if the spear's light, its length still gets in the way.

Even SWORD and shield tactics is limited, forget spear and shield. In reality, the shield trades away a lot of mobility for the protection it offers. There are actually some really cool moves you can pull off with a spear if you weild it with 2 hands that are impossible if you've also got this giant hulking shield too. It's also one of the reasons ancient samurai don't wear shields with their Katanas, it would have seriously hampered their movements with the blade.

Sean The Owner · Post by **Sean The Owner** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:03 pm

[QUOTE=Anonononomous]I don't know what you're alking about. I have a trusty glass halberd that's pretty powerful. And aren't one-handed spears more to be used as javelins? I don't think that would work very well in Morrowind. It's like with arrows. In big battles in real life archers would go in and not carry many arrows. They would just pick up new ones as they advanced.[/QUOTE]
exactly, it would be a javelin not a spear...just go outside and find a fallen tree and try to swing it around 1 handed...it wont work too well, you need a smaller stick also called a javelin

Birdsfly · Post by **Birdsfly** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:16 pm

Ares: I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but the damage range shown on a weapon is variable, and is dependant on your level in that skill, so a Silver Longsword looks pathetic(which it is) if you have about 5 Long blade skill, but lokks like a highly performed killing machine compared to the other if you have lvl 100 Long blade!

So, a spear can be much more powerful as you upgrade in spear level from the 25-- stage.

To some others: JAVELIN! I KNEW the things had a name! Thnx for reminding me of what that was!

EDIT: Sean, you normally don't SWING a spear, you STAB with it!

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:32 pm

Well of course if you use a spear + shield you sacrifice mobility, that's the case with any other weapon as well, but in return you gain the ability to defend better. Plus it's so cool.

And no javalines were not the only one handed spears. There were many civilizations that used spear and shield to equip their soldiers, think ancient Greeks and Macedonians with their hoplites and phalanx. They were slow moving, cause of all that armor and shield and spear, but they were extremely deadly.

I would actually think that a short spear would be better combination with a shield then a long sword as it is easier to stab with the shield rather then swing with a long sword(just my opinion I never tried this).

Birdsfly · Post by **Birdsfly** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:42 pm

if I don't remember wrongly, I think javelins also have been used as throwing weapons? I miss that in Morrowind; some over-sized weapons to throw and pierce the enemy completely!

Sean The Owner · Post by **Sean The Owner** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:14 pm

[QUOTE=Birdsfly]Ares: I don't know if you are aware of this or not, but the damage range shown on a weapon is variable, and is dependant on your level in that skill, so a Silver Longsword looks pathetic(which it is) if you have about 5 Long blade skill, but lokks like a highly performed killing machine compared to the other if you have lvl 100 Long blade!

So, a spear can be much more powerful as you upgrade in spear level from the 25-- stage.

To some others: JAVELIN! I KNEW the things had a name! Thnx for reminding me of what that was!

EDIT: Sean, you normally don't SWING a spear, you STAB with it!

[/QUOTE]
true but stabbing is even harder than swinging so its gonna be hard to swing nevermind stab with it

Rookierookie · Post by **Rookierookie** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:54 pm

Hmm... it's not every day that a thread here becomes a historical one...

Spears have a longer reach, so a spear totting character can fight without ever getting hit.

Also, your strength actually affects the damage more than the weapon itself.

Opalescence · Post by **Opalescence** » Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:59 pm

Technically, a spear's advantage lies in the fact that you can use momentum to force a lot of power into the tip, which can penetrate almost any armor except metal. A spear also has superior range to almost any other weapon except for halberds and bows. However, if you're wearing a shield pretty much the only thing you could do with a spear is thrust, thrust, thrust...

In addition, once the enemy manages to close on you, your spear will be much less effective, and you will be wishing for the Legionnaire's secondary weapon, the (in?)famous Roman gladius.

Ares2382 · Post by **Ares2382** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:10 am

[QUOTE=Opalescence]Technically, a spear's advantage lies in the fact that you can use momentum to force a lot of power into the tip, which can penetrate almost any armor except metal. A spear also has superior range to almost any other weapon except for halberds and bows. However, if you're wearing a shield pretty much the only thing you could do with a spear is thrust, thrust, thrust...

In addition, once the enemy manages to close on you, your spear will be much less effective, and you will be wishing for the Legionnaire's secondary weapon, the (in?)famous Roman gladius.[/QUOTE]

Thus adding more variety to gameplay, it would be same as I am playing an archer right now and if the enemy actually lives to get close enough to me I pull out my trusy wakizashi and give him a few more stabs to finish him off.

Gromph · Post by **Gromph** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:08 pm

Staves and javelins and such are all great, who was who said that a javlin and a shield arent effective? either way they are wrong, because when you have a big old hulking shield you can stab straight out, with a lot of ease, and you can move it fast to. just look at the old style Greek warriors, due to their limited metalurgy skills they had only bronze, not great for broad or long swords but excelent for stabbing weapons, and they did that, and they could strike fast as hell. either way, a shield and a javelin would be great

Sean The Owner · Post by **Sean The Owner** » Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:39 pm

yes but a spear and shield isnt effective because the tip of the spear will just hit the ground when you try to thrust it into something

werebeargoddess · Post by **werebeargoddess** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:13 am

I imagine it'd be pretty hard to use both a shield and a spear. I mean, they're both heavy. It would probobly be hard to hold the shield up and thrust the spear out at the same time.

moltovir · Post by **moltovir** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:33 am

What some of you seem to forget that you are on your own in Morrowind. In Ancient Macedonia or Greek, warriors indeed had spears (6 meter, roughly 18 feet long) and shields, but they fought in groups of +- 100 men (one phalanx) against complete cohorts of cavalry and infantry, and spears were only used for defensive positions (the eagle) or the first strike of battle, for melee combat they switched to short swords. So i don't think the spear+shield combo makes sense for 1 vs 1 melee combat.

Sean The Owner · Post by **Sean The Owner** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:14 pm

whered you learn all of that?

fable · Post by **fable** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:39 pm

There are a lot of history books on the subject.

Sean The Owner · Post by **Sean The Owner** » Sat Oct 02, 2004 2:54 pm

oh right...never thought about that thanks fable