Fighter/sorcerer in HoF?

Vanion · Post by **Vanion** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:29 pm

Just as one other suggestion, if you're expecting your mage will get hit, the mage armour/spirit armour spells have a reasonably good duration. Since their effects don't stack with normal armour anyway, you might as well spend a spell slot to use those early on and remain relaitvely safe until the Chain of Drakkas is available. Not a particularly favourable tactic for sorcerors whose mid level spells are at an absolute premium and can't be wasted on temporary measures, but it is an option.

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:18 pm

The best option for protecting your Wizard or Sorc. if theyt are getting hit by melee or missile fire is either Mirror Image or Invisibility. At later levels, Improved Invis. is king, but in the early game Mirror Image and Invis. will both save you in times of need. Mirror Image is useful throught the game, whereas Invis. is a surefire way out of a tight spot. Disappear and run away to a safe distance then either heal yourself or begin casting again once you are safe.

Brynn · Post by **Brynn** » Sun Oct 10, 2004 11:51 pm

And Stoneskin, of course. I found that very useful, my mage could even go into melee fighting with that on! Stoneskin + Mirror Image := cool

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:12 am

.

wizard should always be the better choice for a fighter / mage...

faster spell levels, no limited spell selection (he should fight and buff himself, and only support your bombardiers !) and better synergies with the high INT stats...

what I would suggest is the following:

Fighter 4 / Barb 3 / Rogue 3 / Ranger 3 / Wizard 17

race: male drow

stats: STR 18 - DEX 20 - CON 16 - INT 17 - WIS 4 - CHA 5

the only question is, at which point you change to wiz:

if you 1st take all non-wiz levels which gives a very strong early fighter and the change to wiz (with all level-squatting possibilities)

or just go for a:

Fighter 2 / Barb 2 / Rogue 3 / Ranger 2
then the 13 wiz levels needed for tenser & mordenk. sword
and then the other levels...

...what gives you tensers & MKS 4 levels earlier - but you won't have that good fighter in the mid-game while taking the wiz levels...

btw. the low wis resulting in -3 on will saves isn't that big problem for a drow...

and the high INT in combination with the rogue levels gives you lots of SP!

.

winter sorrow · Post by **winter sorrow** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 3:43 am

@silverdragon

Disagree about the faster spells bit in practice. While it's true that you can cast higher level spells earlier than an equivalent ranked sorc, in practice you don't get the spell scrolls quick enough. Also, when you get scrolls I find that often I don't have the spell that I'd like to have. With the sorceror you get to pick exactly what you'd like to use. Only real diff in my mind is that a wizard is a little more versatile / easier to play with (esp earlier on) and you have no regret learning low level spells like sleep that are nice to start with but absolutely useless later on. As for high int synergies, it only really works with a rogue / wizard: what would a fighter gain from high Int?

Also, you suggest a Fighter 4 / Barb 3 / Rogue 3 / Ranger 3 / Wizard 17 build for a drow. I thought you could only get up to level 28 with the ECL penalty? If that's true you can only get 15 levels of wiz and I think you lose out on level 8 spells. You still get mord sword I think though.

Actually you might as well go for a cleric/wizard build. Clerics are pretty decent warriors at the start and in the mid game when you use their spells effectively. You'll get more buffing and summon spells at your disposal. With Command and Sleep and high dex you can easily pick off many of the earlier enemies while they're knocked out. By the mid game you can summon a few undead while you take a breather, heal yourself. and rejoin combat. And with enough cleric levels the draw holy might spell is a useful self-buffing spell. Now the only thing you would need to decide is the cleric domain. Lathander and Talos have some decent offensive domain spells, but I might take Lathander for Firestorm at an earlier level than Talos. Or go for the banite. As you'll be spreading you're ability increases acorss Int and Wis, the +1 DC bonus to will save spells is nice (effectively a +2 Wisdom bonus), plus you have the choice of getting Gate at level 7 (I think) - but you'd probably need to sacrifice some wiz effectiveness in doing so.

Stats for drow Cleric / Wiz might be:

Str 16 +3
Dex 16 +3
Con 10 +0
Int 17 +3
Wis 16 +3
Cha 5 -3

This gives you the most balance melee character at the start. Ok you can't take too much punishment at the start because of low HP but you shouldn't be the tank anyway. Get either shield or mage armour at the start for +7 or +4 armour bonus. Kill Phaen (?) near the start for the +2 deflection bonus robe. You now have either 22 or 19 armour class which is not bad before even going to the goblin fortress. Learn minor mirror image as a wizard of course and you can withstand 1 hit without damage. Once you get mirror image and blur as a wizard this starts to compensate for your low HP. If in trouble, cast invisibility or sanctuary and retreat to a nice location and chuck missles.

Of course you can go for 18 str and 14 dex to become a better close range warrior....

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:30 am

max number of levels is 30... all races...

With ELC race penalty it just takes some time longer..

winter sorrow · Post by **winter sorrow** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:33 am

if so, what exp do i need to get to level 29 and 30 as a drow?

the manual only lists experience required up to level 30 so you'd only know how much exp you need for level 28.

Vanion · Post by **Vanion** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 4:47 am

You'll notice that the experience points required for the next level is always current level x 1000.

For example, for non ECL races, going from level 1 to 2 requires 1000 XP, from 2 to 3 requires a further 2000 XP (for a total of 3000) and so on and so forth, right through all the levels. So from the moment you hit 20th level, you need another 20000 XP to get to level 21, etc etc.

ECL = Effective Character level, so Races merely scale the experience required. All you actually have to do to work it out is use the following formula

XP required to attain next level = (Current Character Level + ECL modifier) x 1000

For the example of Drow, your ECL modifier is 2.

To go from level 1 to level 2, you need 3000 XP, to go from level 5 to level 6, you need to attain 8000 XP than you had at the start of level 5.

To go from level 28 to 29, you need 30000 XP more than you did at level 28.

Hope that sorts it out.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:00 am

[QUOTE=winter sorrow]if so, what exp do i need to get to level 29 and 30 as a drow?

the manual only lists experience required up to level 30 so you'd only know how much exp you need for level 28.[/QUOTE]

AFAIK you only have to subtract the for level X-2 (29) needed EXP from the for level X-1 (30) needed and add 1000 EXP to calculate level X (31) !

concerning your earlier post:

from my point of view the spellsword shouldn't be missused as a bombardier - they should be designed as an ultimate melee-fighter:

INT and the 3 rogue, Barb & Ranger levels should give enough SP for move silent, hide & *use magic device* !

...this way you should be able to use even high level cleric scrolls !

...as wizard you can take all buffing spells you need and support your sorc with the less important but still usefull ones...

...for such a extreme MC PC I would always mix 3 rogue levels in - just to good to miss...

...but as posted before you can also do well with only 2 Fighter levels, 2 Ranger levels & 2 Barb levels...

...but you could miss the HP they give in HOF...-...could also be a problem with your cleric mage build

.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 5:47 am

Well if you ask me 50-100 Hp less or more dont realy affect that much.. more you have the better things are.. but still becuse summons and Wail of banshee is going to kill most mosnters you realy dont need so much HP.. but if you dislike using Wail of banshee.. then extra HP will matter..

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:15 am

[QUOTE=Wrath-Of-Egg]Well if you ask me 50-100 Hp less or more dont realy affect that much.. more you have the better things are.. but still becuse summons and Wail of banshee is going to kill most mosnters you realy dont need so much HP.. but if you dislike using Wail of banshee.. then extra HP will matter..[/QUOTE]

...hmmm...-...maybe I just don't like to ressurect or raise my PC...-..always try to beat the game without using these spells at all...

...if someone is dead he is dead - don't like any undeads in my party

.

winter sorrow · Post by **winter sorrow** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 6:49 am

Thanks everone re the exp for ECL races. Now I have an extra two & three levels to look forward to in my 3 member party.

@ silverdragon

I think I saw someone posting the DC for using UMD to cast spells from scrolls: 25+spell level (or maybe just imagining it). If so, to cast level 9 cleric spell from a scroll you need to beat 34. If you took rogue to start with you'd only have 6 skill points in UMD I think. So the max DC you can match is 26 on a straight d20 roll with no modifiers. That means you need an ability modifier of +8 to match and if it is Cha (I'm not sure here) then you need a Cha of 26+...but you say that the build should start with Cha of 5. Where are you going to get the 21+ cha points? Maybe I'm missing something here, but at the moment I don't see how 3 levels of rouge makes you a all scroll casting machine.

If you want ultimate melee fighter, then your mix is not really going to be that much better than a straight warrior type build, wizard with M Sword or cleric. Sure you'll be hard to hit when your defences are fully up, but in HOF enemies have some way of getting to you eventually and when they hit they hit pretty hard. Then you just spend time healing, rebuffing, healing and rebuffing without no hitback.

In the end I guess you're going to use Tenser's transformation and M Sword the most. If M Sword is you main offensive weapon then there is no point in free dual wield (as ranger) and rage (as barbarian)? If I remember, M Sword hits from afar and I don't think it benefits from str bonuses. If you want spellsword just go for fighter/wizard - mainly because to maximise the feats you get so you can maximise spell focus and weapon handling.

I think a wiz-cross spellsword should be able to be all things: bombardier,disabler, buffer, summoner when the situation requires. Just building an ultimate melee champion doesn't seem that great later on. If you want ultimate meat shield that isn't a summon, go for barbarian tiefling /aasimar (for elemental resistance) or dwarf (for 20 con). But multiple high level summons are still best strategy in the late game.

Lower HPs as a cleric / mage are no probs.You cast multiple summon spells and cycle between your summons and yourself in combat. So if you are taking too much of a beating, just become invisible or cast sanctuary and divert the attention to your summons. Then there's heal (& mass heal if you go all the way with the cleric spells) to prolong the cycle which is amazing in HOF as your summons have so much HP. It'll be as if the enemy is facing a dozen adversaries in terms of HP.

Vanion · Post by **Vanion** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 7:10 am

Charisma does indeed modify UMD checks. One question, though, if you're taking wizard levels, why use UMD at all? As soon as you multiclass, those ranks have been wasted since you can use all scrolls anyway. You're better off putting ranks into something you'll use.

In general, cherrypicking more than 2 classes for their low level abilities leads to some problematic issues with the amount of multiclass levels you have and getting the XP you're like. Barbarian level 2-3 idea never made much sense to me, since you're getting a few extra HP, but nothing else you're not getting at Barbarian level 1. If you're going to snatch some barb levels, 1 or 4 are the only viable options. Ranger, going more than 1 is a waste. Fighter, go 2 or 4.

In any case, if you're after pure power, there are very few multiclassing options that end up significantly better than a dedicated single class. If you're out to experiment...spellswords in general are one of the most underpowered combinations. The BAB, disparate stats and low HP just leads to a build which is ok at a few things, but doesn't have any real staying power or significantly more stopping power than a single classed character.

neocool00 · Post by **neocool00** » Fri Oct 15, 2004 12:41 pm

[QUOTE=Vanion]Charisma does indeed modify UMD checks. One question, though, if you're taking wizard levels, why use UMD at all? As soon as you multiclass, those ranks have been wasted since you can use all scrolls anyway. You're better off putting ranks into something you'll use.[/QUOTE]
The only reason I could think of in taking UMD with a Rogue/Wizard is if you wanted him/her to be able to cast Cleric spells. Other than that, I agree with you. In addition, if you're going that route, you're going to end up spreading yourself too thin distributing abilities (DEX, CON, INT, CHA, etc.)

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:22 am

[QUOTE=winter sorrow]Thanks everone re the exp for ECL races. Now I have an extra two & three levels to look forward to in my 3 member party.

@ silverdragon

I think I saw someone posting the DC for using UMD to cast spells from scrolls: 25+spell level (or maybe just imagining it). If so, to cast level 9 cleric spell from a scroll you need to beat 34. If you took rogue to start with you'd only have 6 skill points in UMD I think. So the max DC you can match is 26 on a straight d20 roll with no modifiers. That means you need an ability modifier of +8 to match and if it is Cha (I'm not sure here) then you need a Cha of 26+...but you say that the build should start with Cha of 5. Where are you going to get the 21+ cha points? Maybe I'm missing something here, but at the moment I don't see how 3 levels of rouge makes you a all scroll casting machine.[/QUOTE]

...my mistake - I always thought UMD was INT based...

...in this case it would have worked for some lower level but still very effective cleric spells - e.g. DUHM...

...but with the bad CHA modifier it won't work

.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:29 am

[QUOTE=winter sorrow]Thanks everone re the exp for ECL races. Now I have an extra two & three levels to look forward to in my 3 member party.

@ silverdragon

In the end I guess you're going to use Tenser's transformation and M Sword the most. If M Sword is you main offensive weapon then there is no point in free dual wield (as ranger) and rage (as barbarian)? If I remember, M Sword hits from afar and I don't think it benefits from str bonuses. If you want spellsword just go for fighter/wizard - mainly because to maximise the feats you get so you can maximise spell focus and weapon handling. [/QUOTE]

...dual wield is for the boni you get from some weapons...-...and for the time you don't have M Sword available (normal mode and ~ half of HOF)

and the Barb is more for the speed boni...-...as he takes out major threads behind the enemy lines - it's good to be fast

btw. you get good HP, BAB & saves from the 1st 3 levels of Barb & Ranger...

...making your life much easier until you have the wizard level for M Sword & Tensers.

.

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Wed Oct 20, 2004 8:43 pm

Given what I've found from my play of the game, once you get spell casters to a certain level the rest is pretty much gravy. Other levels could be better used.

I for the ultimate jack of all trades, swiss army knife bashing machine here's what I'd make:

Human Fighter6/Cleric (Mask)18/Rogue6

This guy can Mirror Image and Improved Invis. himself from his Domain Spells plus has access to Black Blade of Disaster and can Heal Himself if hp get low and cast Symbol: Hoplessness - the best crowd control in the game. He gets Evasion and Sneak attack from his rogue levels and can fight well with good HP, plus gets Specialisation, bonus Feats and Max. Attacks. I'd probably take 1 or 2 fighter levels, then switch to Cleric for most of Normal mode, adding the Rogue levels in HoF. Alternatively you could just level him purely in Cleric for normal mode and make him more combat focused in HoF.

My other Fav. is Human or Dwarven Fighter15/Wizard8/Rogue7. This guy can't heal himself or cast Symbol, but can fight like a demon and will be VERY hard to kill. Max out his Con. give him 14 Int and Dex. sacrificing Charisma for Strength. He'll cast mirror Image and wade into combat with a 2 hander or dual weilding, recasting Mirror Image when he starts to run low on decoy images, and can Improved Invis if things get nasty. He can also act as a back up mage, casting Malison to soften up opponents while the main Arcane casters start their Symbols and Wails. I think of him as a "tricky tank". Either play him as a Wizard or Fighter in the early game then start switching him at level 8.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:15 am

[QUOTE=Heidrek]Given what I've found from my play of the game, once you get spell casters to a certain level the rest is pretty much gravy. Other levels could be better used.

I for the ultimate jack of all trades, swiss army knife bashing machine here's what I'd make:

Human Fighter6/Cleric (Mask)18/Rogue6

This guy can Mirror Image and Improved Invis. himself from his Domain Spells plus has access to Black Blade of Disaster and can Heal Himself if hp get low and cast Symbol: Hoplessness - the best crowd control in the game. He gets Evasion and Sneak attack from his rogue levels and can fight well with good HP, plus gets Specialisation, bonus Feats and Max. Attacks. I'd probably take 1 or 2 fighter levels, then switch to Cleric for most of Normal mode, adding the Rogue levels in HoF. Alternatively you could just level him purely in Cleric for normal mode and make him more combat focused in HoF.[/QUOTE]

I've a similar PC in my party - same idea - but little bit other build

female Drow

STR 14 - DEX 20 > 26 - CON 14 - INT 13 - WIS 14 > 36 - CHA 5

- dreadmaster 15 - fighter 4 - rogue 3 - monk 3 - wizard 5

- gets the 2 x the quest WIS-boni, 2 x holy transference & both rings so he can use is very high WIS for a better AC

- 15 cleric levels give access to level 8 spells (level 9 is useless either way)

- 3 rogue, 3 monk & 2 or 4 fighter level are the optimum for each class from my point of view...

- 5 wiz levels give access to some important defense spells

- this build has the potential for a very high AC

.

Heidrek · Post by **Heidrek** » Thu Oct 21, 2004 3:33 pm

How do you get the 3 monk levels? Do you take this class fist then multiclass? Dreadmaster was another choice I was looking at. Some decent Domain spells, plus the added +1DC is handy in HoF mode. I prefered to take some extra levels mainly to increase the number of 6th and 8th level spell slots available, plus I couldn't resist my tank wading into battle weilding the Black Blade of Disaster and Disintegrating everything in sight while Mirror Imaging himself!

The monk levels are an interesting idea, you only get the AC bonus without armour right? I was considering this but decided against it as I have found AC less important in HoF. However using Armour can give other benefits like Freedom of Movement etc. I like the Wizard levels too, just enough for a few Images, but this again means not using armour. This is fine with the build you hvae as you plan on not using armour anyway. Is there much other benefit from taking 3 Monk levels? You get Evasion from the Rogue levels anyway and by committing those Monk levels to more Rogue ones you can get a better Sneak Attack and more skill points. Conversely giving these levels to Fighter or spreading them out will give better BaB's and more Feats.

What about these Wisdom bonuses you mention, when do you get the +2 wisdom bonuses from quests? And I thought that only the highest Stat buffing effect worked, using two Every God Rings still only gives you +5 to Wisdom doesn't it?

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Oct 22, 2004 1:17 am

[QUOTE=Heidrek]How do you get the 3 monk levels? Do you take this class fist then multiclass? Dreadmaster was another choice I was looking at. Some decent Domain spells, plus the added +1DC is handy in HoF mode. I prefered to take some extra levels mainly to increase the number of 6th and 8th level spell slots available, plus I couldn't resist my tank wading into battle weilding the Black Blade of Disaster and Disintegrating everything in sight while Mirror Imaging himself![/QUOTE]

1. - rogue 1
2. - fighter 1
3. - fighter 2
4. - rogue 2
5. to 7. - dreadmaster 3 (levelsquatting if you like - for some more EXP)
8. - fighter 3 (if you use levelsquatting take this one as 5th)
9. - rogue 3
10. - fighter 4 (btw. you have BAB 8 right now - so you can use the bonus feat for imp. crit.)
11. to 13. - monk 3 (you will need levelsquatting now to avoid the 20% EXP mali)
14. to 17. - wizard 4 (you will need levelsquatting now to avoid the 20% EXP mali)
18. to 29. - dreadmaster 15 (some levelsquatting if you like - for more EXP)
30. wizard 5

.