Just Say NO!

Angry Chris · Post by **Angry Chris** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:43 pm

I am just wondering if anyone else feels as violated by this bastardization of the Forgotten Realms RPG series as I do? It appears as if the developers spent little time, money, or effort in building this continuation of the Icewind Dale story.

Prepare for Random Rant.

5 4 3 2 1

Music - In non-combat it plays for about 6 seconds in two or three spots and then stops. While playing you wish they had expanded it to the rest of the gameworld.

Voiced Dialogue - Good Voice Acting, but giving a massive amount of it all at once in only a few widely spaced encounters is terrible! I wanted to listen but when you see the paragraphs of text, and the story line was so weak, it was agony.

Story - What story, we can string a bunch of useless sites together and end with the same areas as the first game. Trust me, it'll work.... NOPE!

Maps - Quantity will dazzle them from realizing that they are overly simplistic, useless single path, linear setups.

Game Design - A poor adaptation of the 3rd edition rules to say the least. So many holes, that all the quality leaked through. They seem to forget that each +1 "to hit and damage" bonus equates to a +2 in STR. This lack of balance is exemplified by the +5 Rings of Wisdom (Every GOD Ring - a ridiculous concept!) but only a lousy +1 to Int (multiple, non-stackable items).

No real ARMOR until the end! WTF!!!!????? Oh ya, if you look at the #s (to hit, and actual hits on opponents) in the game you will realize that the enemies are cheating all the time. They have stats that are not possible with their equipment level.

NO MAGIC FOR WIZARDS. Ok, this is not exactly the truth, but I was constantly getting two or three levels above being able to cast a spell before finding ANY spell at that level. I was able to cast 8th level spells before finding my FIRST 7th Level Spell! I did not 'build' my characters up with non-'story' encounters, and ended this POS at approx. Level 16.

No decent magic items until the last chapter. Then you get dumped on! Somebody feeling guilty??? Went from +2 to +5 (or better!) in about 1 hour.

Motivation - If you played the earlier game you were probably hoping to see statues or some mention at least, but no... in fact you were almost forgotten!!! Wandered into the tundra and were never seen again (probably killed by kobolds!). Really makes you feel good about taking the paladinic path (good).

Teleporting Waves of enemies - How to turn your PC into a console in three easy steps! Pathetic DMing!

Ambushes (almost omnipresent) at the start of the map so that you (only) cannot have a horde to balance out the odds. The enemy is often waiting for you at the start of a new map and they are ready to go.

Fighter/Cleric/Mages - Most of your named enemies seem to be about level 20 in all three of these classes! 200+ HP with full arsenals of spells?!?! in HEAVY PLATE???!?!?!?! (based on their AC)

All the crap - All the crap that you have to pick up (gems and arrows/bolts). Talk about wasted time - but you need to do it for the money. I want my time back!

EVERTHING IS TRIGGERED AREAS - most of the game is set up with triggered areas. Enemies just appear (not teleports as covered above) once you get to that trigger (even if you are invisible and non-detectable!!). POS

Cut Scenes - 1) Non-escapable 2) Boring 3) Mostly containing useless info 4) SLOW

Modified Spells - Wizards are useless in this game! Aside from the above-mentioned lack of spells, and the lack of Int. boosting items, Druids and Clerics can now cast the same spells (or ones that approximate them). Yep, that's a good idea...

Lack of basic equipment in the early game (cannot even buy it), lack of anything remarkable in the center of the game, and about 80% of all new items in the last few hours.

Oh ya, Animate Dead, haste them (if you wish), cast improved invisibility on them, then cast invisibility (sphere) on all your PCs (the enemies know where you are - no perception checks! unless you are INVISIBLE). Have one character travel with them so that you can see the enemy, and the Army of Invisible Darkness will rip them apart with no retaliation. Just sit back and collect the XP. Play-testing anyone?

Little XP for role-playing. Almost all for the hack and slash.

No role-playing opportunities. With a 15+ diplomacy I could not actually influence any of my discussions! It was always a fight! Boring...

Finally, and the best, NO XP FOR MINIONS! The petulant children that designed this game decided to throw waves of NO XP creatures at you and then not reward you for them. The logic that one monster is the same as an army of them is about as twisted as the logic that is displayed in story of the game. This is even more annoying when they use them as the vanguard for powerful enemies casting in the background. There should be a cumulative bonus to XP based on the number and relative strengths of enemies. A 1000 goblin army can still kill a 20th level fighter, but he will not get any XP for it?

I could go on, but I have wasted enough time on this game already. I am writing this to see if other feel the same so that we can send a message that this will not be tolerated, especially since this is essentially just a MOD on the original game. BG2, Neverwinter, IWD, they all had decent game development even if they had a few bugs in the code. So are we going to let them regress to this or are we going to demand a return to the quality of the previous games?

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:37 pm

Well.. IWD2 is unfinished game..

I could do samekind rant on BG2, BG and NWN..

But i dont like to waste time..

Yes EVERY game has its bad parts.. but those can be ignored..

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 2:33 am

.

I was more disappointed by TOEE - great engine - best rule implementation ever - but the rest pure scrap !

...but what is even more annoying: TOEE seems to be the last "tactical" D&D CRPG for the next time / ever !

.

ishuman · Post by **ishuman** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:50 pm

[QUOTE=Angry Chris]
Maps - Quantity will dazzle them from realizing that they are overly simplistic, useless single path, linear setups.

EVERTHING IS TRIGGERED AREAS - most of the game is set up with triggered areas. Enemies just appear (not teleports as covered above) once you get to that trigger (even if you are invisible and non-detectable!!). POS

[/QUOTE]

Well, I've certainly enjoyed it so far or I wouldn't be reading this forum. But I'll add three points.

1. I haven't reached these areas yet but I'm surprised that they'd re-use The Severed Hand and Dragon's Eye in IWD2 since both were in IWD. The game seems huge and I'm sure those locations are done well (and populated differently?) so I'm not complaining. Just surprised.

2. I think the use of triggered areas was a conscious design decision to prevent people from making fights easier by creeping into a room and only exposing one enemy at a time. A lot of IWD could be made much easier by doing this.

3. I have been known to curse the pathfinding from time to time!

-ishuman

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 5:56 pm

Motivation - If you played the earlier game you were probably hoping to see statues or some mention at least, but no... in fact you were almost forgotten!!! Wandered into the tundra and were never seen again (probably killed by kobolds!). Really makes you feel good about taking the paladinic path (good).

spoiler highlight to read:
Targos Docks 7 - FIRTHA KERDOS' HOUSE:

Upon entering Firtha Kerdos' house you will find a small pack of goblins. After killing the goblins Firtha will angrily tell you to get out of her house. Mention Hedron's Ship, the Wicked Wench, and she will ask you to tell Hedron that she was safe. She will also mention that she is blind but has another sort of vision. If you have completed the Targos Caves you can also talk to her about her dead cat. When asked about the troubles in Icewind Dale and the Ten-Towns she will relate a tale to you.

I was more disappointed by TOEE - great engine - best rule implementation ever - but the rest pure scrap !

this is not ToEE, this is IWD2
if you have problems with ToEE, take it to the ToEE forums

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:19 am

[QUOTE=Raumoheru]this is not ToEE, this is IWD2
if you have problems with ToEE, take it to the ToEE forums

[/QUOTE]

...there is a group of games you could call tactical D&D based CRPGs (IWD1, IWD2, POR, BG, BG2, TOEE, and NWN for some part)...

...and I don't see the point why you shouldn't compare them with each other - especially when the thread is on that issue!

[QUOTE=Angry Chris]I am just wondering if anyone else feels as violated by this bastardization of the Forgotten Realms RPG series as I do?...

...snip...

...BG2, Neverwinter, IWD, they all had decent game development even if they had a few bugs in the code. So are we going to let them regress to this or are we going to demand a return to the quality of the previous games?[/QUOTE]

.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:25 am

[QUOTE=silverdragon72]...there is a group of games you could call tactical D&D based CRPGs (IWD1, IWD2, POR, BG, BG2, TOEE, and NWN for some part)...

...and I don't see the point why you shouldn't compare them with each other - especially when the thread is on that issue!

[/QUOTE]

of that list only iwd2 was meant to be the last of it's kind, the opening rant might have more teeth if only black isle was still around - hence trying to compare a "dead" franchise like iwd2 to something like nwn, of course nwn gets more support from the development team. it's supposed to be a flagship type title and it's modular construction allows for continued marketing ie premium modules, two expansions, gold, platinum...

further iwd2 ending up w/ the eldest engine, and had to find a way to make it do new tricks. as such it's not the prettiest game, but i think it does a good enough job. and the simple fact that black isle got out of the comp gaming buisness after iwd2 shows how little support the dev team got, and shows what kind of pressure was on them to make this game.

for what it's worth, iwd2 does "what it says on the box." they didn't exceed expectations like a bg 1&2, but they provided a fair product at market value.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:56 am

.

@koz-ivan: think you missunderstand me - never said that NWN is dead - but the classic tactical CRPG seems to be dead...

there seems to be some kind of CRPG-redesign in the last years:

- ego-perspective
- small or no parties
- nice graphics & effects
- reduced tactical fights

...resulting in games like NWN (for me closest to the classic CRPGs - therefore mentioned as "for some part" in my last post), KOTOR 1&2, Morrowind, and so on...

from my point of view these aren't bad games - but I miss some new classic CRPGs...

...especially as there seems to be no publisher, budget or capable development team anymore after black-isle is out of business !

...the last classic CRPG was TOEE - high potential game with nice graphics and best rule-implementation ever - but without appropiate budget / time only 10% of what it could be !!!

...AFAIK there seems to be no "classic" CRPG under development for 2005...

...and what I really miss is "just" a combination of TOEE (graphics & rules) & BG2 (story & NPCs), IWD2 / BG2:TOB (complex tactical combat).

.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:06 am

Well i would like to have IWD1 combat(lot harder than IWD2)... and chance to create your own party just like in IWD..

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:38 am

[QUOTE=Wrath-Of-Egg]Well i would like to have IWD1 combat(lot harder than IWD2)... and chance to create your own party just like in IWD..[/QUOTE]

...think I should give IWD1 a try after I finished HOF...

...you're absolutely right about building an own party...-...on the other hand the BG2 NPCs were also great:

best solution from my point of view:

scripted NPCs like BG2 which are only determened on gender & eventually race (not subrace), a rough alignement (e.g. not evil or not chaotic) and an amount of EXP they start with...

...only the absolute minimum of determination you need for scripting dialogues, romances, quests and all the nice role-playing stuff...

....without restricting your own decisions how you build your PCs / party!

...btw. I customized all my NPCs in BG2 that way

.

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 7:34 pm

[QUOTE=silverdragon72].

@koz-ivan: think you missunderstand me - never said that NWN is dead - but the classic tactical CRPG seems to be dead...

[/QUOTE]

fair point, that was in refrence to trying to compare iwd2 to the other games. iwd2 is very much a dead game.

and i hadn't thought about it in the terms of the "classic tac crpg" being dead, but saddly you are accurate. perhaps it's the online play element that has "reduced" the market for games that aren't all that different from the gold box ssi games (aside from obvious changes in technology, the basic games/story/plots aren't all that different.)

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:00 am

One good part

One good part about the game is the battle square. Using this allows you to test just how good your individual party members are, not how much you can cheese.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:13 am

[QUOTE=koz-ivan]fair point, that was in refrence to trying to compare iwd2 to the other games. iwd2 is very much a dead game.

and i hadn't thought about it in the terms of the "classic tac crpg" being dead, but saddly you are accurate. perhaps it's the online play element that has "reduced" the market for games that aren't all that different from the gold box ssi games (aside from obvious changes in technology, the basic games/story/plots aren't all that different.)[/QUOTE]

Yay...

How should i reply to that..

Well...

But still.. **** YOU!

So you claim that games with good multiplayer option are better and different?

I would like to to be sure before i start to post things...

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:00 pm

[QUOTE=Wrath-Of-Egg]Yay...

How should i reply to that..

Well...

But still.. **** YOU!

So you claim that games with good multiplayer option are better and different?

I would like to to be sure before i start to post things...

[/QUOTE]

ah well good day to you sir...

i never said multi play was better, i did claim that perhaps multi play has reduced the desire for the game companies to bulid good single play party games.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 1:36 am

WEll NOTHING THEN...

Angry Chris · Post by **Angry Chris** » Mon Dec 06, 2004 12:24 pm

[QUOTE=koz-ivan]of that list only iwd2 was meant to be the last of it's kind, the opening rant might have more teeth if only black isle was still around - hence trying to compare a "dead" franchise like iwd2 to something like nwn

Ahhh, but you forget who the Wizard is behind the curtain. They have the final say and oversight on ALL games that they are selling, and should be making the effort.

further iwd2 ending up w/ the eldest engine, and had to find a way to make it do new tricks. as such it's not the prettiest game, but i think it does a good enough job.

Actually I think the engine is fine. I was not especially surprised to see it being re-used, but I was surprised by the lack of innovation or detail with it.
Try engaging the cheat mode and then activate both the 'remove fog of war' and 'show traps' cheats on a map you have already cleared. You can find many maps with unexplorable terrain that you would not be able to even see (so why include it?). The trap display will show the quick and crude method for *most* of the dimension polygons, although there must have been at least one person working on some since they are very good.

With such a dichotomy of some very good and very bad in the same project would seem to say that they team was unravelling, and probably broke due to senior management disagreements.

but they provided a fair product at market value.
??? $60 for this 2-day walkthrough? I do not think so. Bargin bin at $30 and I would agree.

silverdragon72 · Post by **silverdragon72** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:51 am

.

...sorry don't understand ! 60$ ?!

IWD2 is a x year old product - you should get for 10 bucks!

...as I lost my original copy of the game I bought IWD2 for €10.- (~10$) one month ago!

...and I don't understand also, how anybody manage to finish IWD2 in 2 days !!!

.

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:45 am

well.. there are those no life people..

but 10 € would 13 $

koz-ivan · Post by **koz-ivan** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:41 am

Angry Chris wrote:Actually I think the engine is fine. I was not especially surprised to see it being re-used, but I was surprised by the lack of innovation or detail with it.

one of the things i miss about the interplay boards was where the dev team would talk about their efforts on given products.

a common theme was how difficult it was to continue to work with the infinity engine, or how many things they wanted to improve on but were pressed for time. (pickpocket was an example given instead of success or reload b/c you just annoyed a plot critical npc, alternative penalites were tested and there wasn't time (or $) to make it work.)

Try engaging the cheat mode and then activate both the 'remove fog of war' and 'show traps' cheats on a map you have already cleared. You can find many maps with unexplorable terrain that you would not be able to even see (so why include it?). The trap display will show the quick and crude method for *most* of the dimension polygons, although there must have been at least one person working on some since they are very good.

my guess is that the maps were drawn up earlier in the process and later when plots / scenarios were changed they were closed off.

With such a dichotomy of some very good and very bad in the same project would seem to say that they team was unravelling, and probably broke due to senior management disagreements.

or that they were pressed for time and the powers that be didn't want to waste any more cash on the project. and that wotc may not always be the nice guy behind the curtain.

but they provided a fair product at market value.
??? $60 for this 2-day walkthrough? I do not think so. Bargin bin at $30 and I would agree.

i've spent more on games i've enjoyed less, by that standard imho iwd2 was at fair market value, while a game like bg2 would of been a bargain @ $80. (which is about what i paid for both bg2 & tob, oddly enough)

Wrath-Of-Egg · Post by **Wrath-Of-Egg** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:54 am

[QUOTE=koz-ivan]
i've spent more on games i've enjoyed less, by that standard imho iwd2 was at fair market value, while a game like bg2 would of been a bargain @ $80. (which is about what i paid for both bg2 & tob, oddly enough)[/QUOTE]

WEll.. If you ask me.. (i strongly suggest you dont do it) bargain 80$.. well i would say are you insane? For me price of those game's together would be something like 20$ where is Kivan, Shaar-Teel, Alora, Xzar, Monatarion and Branwen? good thing was that it still had Imoen in BG2.. and then i lost her.. grr.. evil game is missing all my fafourite NPC's..

Plot was way too predictable for me...

And mostly game didn't give any chalenge.. and it was also so ****ing boring..
(i am sorry for that bad word)

Yeah.. it is personal...