Endings *SPOILER*
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Would the Giovanni be among the more obscure Sabbath clans? Or are they Camarilla? Pictured them as evil vampires, since what they do with corpses
(There is a reason why dead people get burried. It is because they do not look very fit after a while dead!) and since noone was mad at me for raiding their mansion.
[/QUOTE]
The Giovanni are independant, they I believe signed an agreement with the Camarilla (at Thorns?), something along the lines of we'll stay out your way and you won't destroy us I believe although I can't remember the details and can't find the post which detailed it on a forum I frequent.
Just a minor point/quibble, it's Sabbat not Sabbath, entirely irrelevant but just so you know
Turns out it wasen't at the convention of thorns that was just the anarchs and assamites so no idea when this treaty was etc.
Does seem likely that he was a gargoyle, as they don't seem fond of using elders for some reason, probably cause they don't go round fighting with big swords and turning into giant bats to attack a puny neonate.
(There is a reason why dead people get burried. It is because they do not look very fit after a while dead!) and since noone was mad at me for raiding their mansion.
[/QUOTE]
The Giovanni are independant, they I believe signed an agreement with the Camarilla (at Thorns?), something along the lines of we'll stay out your way and you won't destroy us I believe although I can't remember the details and can't find the post which detailed it on a forum I frequent.
Just a minor point/quibble, it's Sabbat not Sabbath, entirely irrelevant but just so you know
Turns out it wasen't at the convention of thorns that was just the anarchs and assamites so no idea when this treaty was etc.
Does seem likely that he was a gargoyle, as they don't seem fond of using elders for some reason, probably cause they don't go round fighting with big swords and turning into giant bats to attack a puny neonate.
The key thing being that elders are paranoid, they don?t get personally involved in combat unless they really have to. Secondly the Sheriff chancing into the giant bat and flying around the tower seems to me to be a pretty clear breach of the Masquerade.
Also for your amuse ment I'll try to list all the clans as I remember them:
Brujah
Gangrel
Tremere
Nosferatur
Ventrue
Toreador
Malkavian
Tzimisce
Lasombra
Cappadocian
Giovanni
Sulot
Assamite
Hm, how many did I miss?
Also for your amuse ment I'll try to list all the clans as I remember them:
Brujah
Gangrel
Tremere
Nosferatur
Ventrue
Toreador
Malkavian
Tzimisce
Lasombra
Cappadocian
Giovanni
Sulot
Assamite
Hm, how many did I miss?
[QUOTE=RWStagg]Cappadocians are only in Dark Ages I believe, being replaced by the Giovanni in modern nights?
Saulot would be the Salubri, also only in dark ages I believe, and you missed um...the followers of Set and the Ravnos?[/QUOTE]
We're walking a fine line here between "clan" and "bloodline." Any line of vampires that does not have an antediluvian is considered a bloodline, so while the Salubri were once a clan (in the Dark Ages), they are now only a bloodline since Saulot was diablerized long ago by Tremere. (Although supposedly Saulot is recovering, but that's a different subject entirely...)
There are indeed still a handful of Salubri around, eight I believe. Or was it eleven? I can't remember... But they all hide because most of them would be killed on sight as the Tremere (wrongly) convinced everyone they were demonic.
Cappadocians were a clan until the Giovanni diablerized Cappadoc, so now they would be only a bloodline, but as far as I recall they no longer exist.
Other independent clans or bloodlines are:
Caitiff/Pander (the Camarilla and Sabbat name for "thin bloods," respectively)
Kiasyd - a bloodline created by the Lasombra
Assamite - a very old, reclusive middle-eastern clan
Daghters of Cacophony - a bloodline (possibly from the Toreador) whose sole obsession is music
Samedi - a bloodline (possibly from the Nosferatu) whose appearance is even worse than the Nosferatu; they are more zombie-like and their bodies are in a constant state of rot and decay
And last but certainly not least:
Baali - the absolute epitome of all things evil, Baali are demon and devil worshipping vampires whose sole purpose is to spread darkness and suffering throughout the world
They even have their own discipline --- Daimoinon --- which is all about sins and curses and the fires of hell and all those other fun things!
...There's probably even more than this but that's all I can remember.
Saulot would be the Salubri, also only in dark ages I believe, and you missed um...the followers of Set and the Ravnos?[/QUOTE]
We're walking a fine line here between "clan" and "bloodline." Any line of vampires that does not have an antediluvian is considered a bloodline, so while the Salubri were once a clan (in the Dark Ages), they are now only a bloodline since Saulot was diablerized long ago by Tremere. (Although supposedly Saulot is recovering, but that's a different subject entirely...)
There are indeed still a handful of Salubri around, eight I believe. Or was it eleven? I can't remember... But they all hide because most of them would be killed on sight as the Tremere (wrongly) convinced everyone they were demonic.
Cappadocians were a clan until the Giovanni diablerized Cappadoc, so now they would be only a bloodline, but as far as I recall they no longer exist.
Other independent clans or bloodlines are:
Caitiff/Pander (the Camarilla and Sabbat name for "thin bloods," respectively)
Kiasyd - a bloodline created by the Lasombra
Assamite - a very old, reclusive middle-eastern clan
Daghters of Cacophony - a bloodline (possibly from the Toreador) whose sole obsession is music
Samedi - a bloodline (possibly from the Nosferatu) whose appearance is even worse than the Nosferatu; they are more zombie-like and their bodies are in a constant state of rot and decay
And last but certainly not least:
Baali - the absolute epitome of all things evil, Baali are demon and devil worshipping vampires whose sole purpose is to spread darkness and suffering throughout the world
They even have their own discipline --- Daimoinon --- which is all about sins and curses and the fires of hell and all those other fun things!
...There's probably even more than this but that's all I can remember.
Originally Posted by Jennelle
We're walking a fine line here between "clan" and "bloodline." Any line of vampires that does not have an antediluvian is considered a bloodline, so while the Salubri were once a clan (in the Dark Ages), they are now only a bloodline since Saulot was diablerized long ago by Tremere. (Although supposedly Saulot is recovering, but that's a different subject entirely...)
Surely then the Giovanni would be merely a bloodlines, consdering they would not have an antideluvian, merely a 3rd generation progenator....The same being true of the Tremere...
Yeah I heard that Saulot was in Ireland of all places when whoever it was rose Carthage from the ground, Alas I wasen't there but there was talk of it, apparently there was demon baby sacrificing or something, and some brujah went to try and destroy it, madness if you ask me.....
[QUOTE=RWStagg]Surely then the Giovanni would be merely a bloodlines, consdering they would not have an antideluvian, merely a 3rd generation progenator....The same being true of the Tremere...[/QUOTE]
Bloodlines, clans... I can't tell the difference sometimes. My rationale was that Tremere diablerized Saulot, thus becoming a 3rd generation, and thus officially qualifying as the progenitor of Clan Tremere. Ditto with Giovanni, except his antediluvian victim was Cappadoc.
But by that logic, Clan Tremere is a clan no longer since Saulot's soul finally took over Tremere's body! Jeez, it took him long enough. Then something about Tremere's protege Goratrix and Saulot trapping him in a mirror... Ah, well, suffice it to say the Tremere got what was coming to them! So without Tremere himself I guess they would be a bloodline.
[QUOTE=RWStagg]Yeah I heard that Saulot was in Ireland of all places when whoever it was rose Carthage from the ground, Alas I wasen't there but there was talk of it, apparently there was demon baby sacrificing or something, and some brujah went to try and destroy it, madness if you ask me.....[/QUOTE]
Ah, Carthage. The Brujah were so proud of that city, too. After Carthage was razed they never were the same. All full of rebellion and fragmentation... How sad.
But yes, it was a bunch of madness. It is said that Saulot had a hand in the development of Carthage, though the entire destruction fiasco can be blamed directly on the Baali. They fabricated a bunch of "demon worshipping" madness and actually managed to convince the Ventrue that the destruction of Carthage was in everyone's best interests! (Though to be fair to the Ventrue, those Baali can be rather crafty.)
Those Baali --- they just wanted to meddle in Saulot's handiwork! To hear them tell it, Saulot is the younger brother of Baal, their clan founder! They're always whining about how Saulot showed his brother Baal how to contact infernal powers only to set him up for betrayal! Something about how Saulot tattled to Caine about Baal's demon worshipping, at which point Caine slew him and cursed his entire lineage of childer. Nonsense.
Bloodlines, clans... I can't tell the difference sometimes. My rationale was that Tremere diablerized Saulot, thus becoming a 3rd generation, and thus officially qualifying as the progenitor of Clan Tremere. Ditto with Giovanni, except his antediluvian victim was Cappadoc.
But by that logic, Clan Tremere is a clan no longer since Saulot's soul finally took over Tremere's body! Jeez, it took him long enough. Then something about Tremere's protege Goratrix and Saulot trapping him in a mirror... Ah, well, suffice it to say the Tremere got what was coming to them! So without Tremere himself I guess they would be a bloodline.
[QUOTE=RWStagg]Yeah I heard that Saulot was in Ireland of all places when whoever it was rose Carthage from the ground, Alas I wasen't there but there was talk of it, apparently there was demon baby sacrificing or something, and some brujah went to try and destroy it, madness if you ask me.....[/QUOTE]
Ah, Carthage. The Brujah were so proud of that city, too. After Carthage was razed they never were the same. All full of rebellion and fragmentation... How sad.
But yes, it was a bunch of madness. It is said that Saulot had a hand in the development of Carthage, though the entire destruction fiasco can be blamed directly on the Baali. They fabricated a bunch of "demon worshipping" madness and actually managed to convince the Ventrue that the destruction of Carthage was in everyone's best interests! (Though to be fair to the Ventrue, those Baali can be rather crafty.)
Those Baali --- they just wanted to meddle in Saulot's handiwork! To hear them tell it, Saulot is the younger brother of Baal, their clan founder! They're always whining about how Saulot showed his brother Baal how to contact infernal powers only to set him up for betrayal! Something about how Saulot tattled to Caine about Baal's demon worshipping, at which point Caine slew him and cursed his entire lineage of childer. Nonsense.
- Intergalactic
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:27 pm
- Contact:
[QUOTE=RWStagg]Surely then the Giovanni would be merely a bloodlines, consdering they would not have an antideluvian, merely a 3rd generation progenator....The same being true of the Tremere...[/QUOTE]
I will try to keep sabbat without the h in mind
While we are at it: Is it antediluvian or antideluvian? hehehe
Aren't 3rd gen vampires antediluvian by definition?
Anyone remember what the final-boss in the first vampire game was?
He transformed himself , so he must have been a tzimisce. And the game
played in NY, where the headquarters of the tzimisce are. And i think, there was some talk about a citadel of blood ,too.
[QUOTE=RWStagg]
Yeah I heard that Saulot was in Ireland of all places when whoever it was rose Carthage from the ground, Alas I wasen't there but there was talk of it, apparently there was demon baby sacrificing or something, and some brujah went to try and destroy it, madness if you ask me.....[/QUOTE]
Sorry i don't understand much of that. Carthage was a phoenician settlement. So the god Baal was among the worshiped gods there.
It was Baal who was said to take child-sacrifices. This claim came from the bible, whose authors made an effort to badmouth Baal. However,there are no proves on child sacrifices. At least none i know of.
Carthage was in the unfortunate position to be loathed by the romans and it's religion a rival to the more successful jewish one. So it is hard to find objective info on it. Which probably makes it a nice setting for a vampire utopia
Sorry if i bored you with this, but ancient history happens to be an area of interest of mine...
[QUOTE=Jennelle]
But by that logic, Clan Tremere is a clan no longer since Saulot's soul finally took over Tremere's body! Jeez, it took him long enough. Then something about Tremere's protege Goratrix and Saulot trapping him in a mirror... Ah, well, suffice it to say the Tremere got what was coming to them! So without Tremere himself I guess they would be a bloodline. [/Quote]
Even if Saulot took over Tremere, the second in charge in the Tremere clan could simply suck tremere/saulot dry and take over. Then they would be a proper clan again
Where does the animosity towards Tremere come from,by the way? I think they are the best clan , simply because they aquired their fate by their own strength.
I will try to keep sabbat without the h in mind
While we are at it: Is it antediluvian or antideluvian? hehehe
Aren't 3rd gen vampires antediluvian by definition?
Anyone remember what the final-boss in the first vampire game was?
He transformed himself , so he must have been a tzimisce. And the game
played in NY, where the headquarters of the tzimisce are. And i think, there was some talk about a citadel of blood ,too.
[QUOTE=RWStagg]
Yeah I heard that Saulot was in Ireland of all places when whoever it was rose Carthage from the ground, Alas I wasen't there but there was talk of it, apparently there was demon baby sacrificing or something, and some brujah went to try and destroy it, madness if you ask me.....[/QUOTE]
Sorry i don't understand much of that. Carthage was a phoenician settlement. So the god Baal was among the worshiped gods there.
It was Baal who was said to take child-sacrifices. This claim came from the bible, whose authors made an effort to badmouth Baal. However,there are no proves on child sacrifices. At least none i know of.
Carthage was in the unfortunate position to be loathed by the romans and it's religion a rival to the more successful jewish one. So it is hard to find objective info on it. Which probably makes it a nice setting for a vampire utopia
Sorry if i bored you with this, but ancient history happens to be an area of interest of mine...
[QUOTE=Jennelle]
But by that logic, Clan Tremere is a clan no longer since Saulot's soul finally took over Tremere's body! Jeez, it took him long enough. Then something about Tremere's protege Goratrix and Saulot trapping him in a mirror... Ah, well, suffice it to say the Tremere got what was coming to them! So without Tremere himself I guess they would be a bloodline. [/Quote]
Even if Saulot took over Tremere, the second in charge in the Tremere clan could simply suck tremere/saulot dry and take over. Then they would be a proper clan again
Where does the animosity towards Tremere come from,by the way? I think they are the best clan , simply because they aquired their fate by their own strength.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]While we are at it: Is it antediluvian or antideluvian? hehehe[/QUOTE]
Great question, Intergalactic.
I guess it depends on what you're trying to convey. If your object is to talk of those that existed before the deluge, then you would want to choose the term "antediluvian," "ante-" being a prefix meaning "before."
If, however, you mean to speak of those individuals who were dead-set against the great flood (who needs all that water, anyway?), then you would want to choose the term "antidiluvian," "anti-" being a prefix meaning "against."
Antidiluvians... All those people that were protesting the deluge!
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Aren't 3rd gen vampires antediluvian by definition?[/QUOTE]
Why yes, yes they are. So is Caine and the 2nd generation vampires... But antediluvian seems to have become interchangeable with 3rd generation in the World of Darkness.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Anyone remember what the final-boss in the first vampire game was?
He transformed himself , so he must have been a tzimisce. And the game
played in NY, where the headquarters of the tzimisce are. And i think, there was some talk about a citadel of blood ,too.[/QUOTE]
You know, I played that game most of the way through, but I actually gave up right before the end. I didn't like that game too much... Too buggy.
...And I liked your little history lesson.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Even if Saulot took over Tremere, the second in charge in the Tremere clan could simply suck tremere/saulot dry and take over. Then they would be a proper clan again [/QUOTE]
Well, that's just the thing. Saulot is not so easily diablerized. Tremere completely underestimated Saulot; he had no idea what he was dealing with. Some say that Saulot allowed himself to be diablerized, knowing that in time he could will his soul to overtake Tremere's.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Where does the animosity towards Tremere come from,by the way? I think they are the best clan , simply because they aquired their fate by their own strength.[/QUOTE]
They're not universally reviled; it depends on who you talk to. Those that know the true nature of Saulot and Clan Salubri tend not to like the Tremere, though. See, the Salubri were a clan of healers; they have an entire discipline centered around healing the body, mind, and soul of others. They could heal vampires and humans alike. Some of the more powerful ones could even cure a person of madness.
Once Tremere diablerized Saulot, he set about exterminating the Salubri. He spread lies and rumors about the Salubri being demon worshippers and managed to turn just about the entire race of kindred against Clan Salubri.
Also, Saulot was the first vampire to reach Golconda. The Salubri are the only clan that has a real grasp on the road to Golconda. They all strive to attain it. Golconda is not well understood and shrouded in mystery, but is basically a means of transcending vampirism. Those that feel vampirism is damnation have hope in Golconda.
The reason why some people despise the Tremere: they picked of an entire clan of peaceful, altruistic healers whose sole desire was to ease suffering and help other vampires transcend their beastly nature.
Great question, Intergalactic.
I guess it depends on what you're trying to convey. If your object is to talk of those that existed before the deluge, then you would want to choose the term "antediluvian," "ante-" being a prefix meaning "before."
If, however, you mean to speak of those individuals who were dead-set against the great flood (who needs all that water, anyway?), then you would want to choose the term "antidiluvian," "anti-" being a prefix meaning "against."
Antidiluvians... All those people that were protesting the deluge!
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Aren't 3rd gen vampires antediluvian by definition?[/QUOTE]
Why yes, yes they are. So is Caine and the 2nd generation vampires... But antediluvian seems to have become interchangeable with 3rd generation in the World of Darkness.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Anyone remember what the final-boss in the first vampire game was?
He transformed himself , so he must have been a tzimisce. And the game
played in NY, where the headquarters of the tzimisce are. And i think, there was some talk about a citadel of blood ,too.[/QUOTE]
You know, I played that game most of the way through, but I actually gave up right before the end. I didn't like that game too much... Too buggy.
...And I liked your little history lesson.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Even if Saulot took over Tremere, the second in charge in the Tremere clan could simply suck tremere/saulot dry and take over. Then they would be a proper clan again [/QUOTE]
Well, that's just the thing. Saulot is not so easily diablerized. Tremere completely underestimated Saulot; he had no idea what he was dealing with. Some say that Saulot allowed himself to be diablerized, knowing that in time he could will his soul to overtake Tremere's.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Where does the animosity towards Tremere come from,by the way? I think they are the best clan , simply because they aquired their fate by their own strength.[/QUOTE]
They're not universally reviled; it depends on who you talk to. Those that know the true nature of Saulot and Clan Salubri tend not to like the Tremere, though. See, the Salubri were a clan of healers; they have an entire discipline centered around healing the body, mind, and soul of others. They could heal vampires and humans alike. Some of the more powerful ones could even cure a person of madness.
Once Tremere diablerized Saulot, he set about exterminating the Salubri. He spread lies and rumors about the Salubri being demon worshippers and managed to turn just about the entire race of kindred against Clan Salubri.
Also, Saulot was the first vampire to reach Golconda. The Salubri are the only clan that has a real grasp on the road to Golconda. They all strive to attain it. Golconda is not well understood and shrouded in mystery, but is basically a means of transcending vampirism. Those that feel vampirism is damnation have hope in Golconda.
The reason why some people despise the Tremere: they picked of an entire clan of peaceful, altruistic healers whose sole desire was to ease suffering and help other vampires transcend their beastly nature.
- Intergalactic
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:27 pm
- Contact:
[QUOTE=Jennelle]
I guess it depends on what you're trying to convey. If your object is to talk of those that existed before the deluge, then you would want to choose the term "antediluvian," "ante-" being a prefix meaning "before."
If, however, you mean to speak of those individuals who were dead-set against the great flood (who needs all that water, anyway?), then you would want to choose the term "antidiluvian," "anti-" being a prefix meaning "against."
Antidiluvians... All those people that were protesting the deluge!
[/QUOTE]
I guess when the great flood happened, everyone who was not on a certain ship was very much antidiluvian
Vampires actually had less reason to be antidiluvian since it only meant a uncomfortable week or two under water...
[QUOTE=Jennelle]
You know, I played that game most of the way through, but I actually gave up right before the end. I didn't like that game too much... Too buggy.
[/QUOTE]
At least it had decent melee weapons, unlike other games *cough*
The story was verrry clicheee ,though.
[QUOTE=Jennelle]
Well, that's just the thing. Saulot is not so easily diablerized. Tremere completely underestimated Saulot; he had no idea what he was dealing with. Some say that Saulot allowed himself to be diablerized, knowing that in time he could will his soul to overtake Tremere's.
[/QUOTE]
Now if Saulot was stronger than Tremere , why let he let Tremere defeat him.
Can't imagine the process of diablerization is very pleasant. And as you pointed out, he lost his clan due to that. Which must have hurt even more ,since his old clan was altruistic and very special in the vampire community.
So where is the money?
Maybe he was after Tremere's secrets... but what could a goody two shoes vampire want with Thaumaturgy? Suspicious, suspicious...
I think it is more likely that Tremere is still in control of himself
And even if not, the other members had some centuries to gain knowledge about vampires. Time Tremere didn't have.
In any case my money is on Tremere.
A pity though that a clan like Salubri where chosen. Why couldn't Tremere take
... Tzimisce for instance. Then i wouldn't have to fight those hideous monsters now
I guess it depends on what you're trying to convey. If your object is to talk of those that existed before the deluge, then you would want to choose the term "antediluvian," "ante-" being a prefix meaning "before."
If, however, you mean to speak of those individuals who were dead-set against the great flood (who needs all that water, anyway?), then you would want to choose the term "antidiluvian," "anti-" being a prefix meaning "against."
Antidiluvians... All those people that were protesting the deluge!
[/QUOTE]
I guess when the great flood happened, everyone who was not on a certain ship was very much antidiluvian
Vampires actually had less reason to be antidiluvian since it only meant a uncomfortable week or two under water...
[QUOTE=Jennelle]
You know, I played that game most of the way through, but I actually gave up right before the end. I didn't like that game too much... Too buggy.
[/QUOTE]
At least it had decent melee weapons, unlike other games *cough*
The story was verrry clicheee ,though.
[QUOTE=Jennelle]
Well, that's just the thing. Saulot is not so easily diablerized. Tremere completely underestimated Saulot; he had no idea what he was dealing with. Some say that Saulot allowed himself to be diablerized, knowing that in time he could will his soul to overtake Tremere's.
[/QUOTE]
Now if Saulot was stronger than Tremere , why let he let Tremere defeat him.
Can't imagine the process of diablerization is very pleasant. And as you pointed out, he lost his clan due to that. Which must have hurt even more ,since his old clan was altruistic and very special in the vampire community.
So where is the money?
Maybe he was after Tremere's secrets... but what could a goody two shoes vampire want with Thaumaturgy? Suspicious, suspicious...
I think it is more likely that Tremere is still in control of himself
And even if not, the other members had some centuries to gain knowledge about vampires. Time Tremere didn't have.
In any case my money is on Tremere.
A pity though that a clan like Salubri where chosen. Why couldn't Tremere take
... Tzimisce for instance. Then i wouldn't have to fight those hideous monsters now
Trust me you don't wanna go near the Tzimisce, with all that nasty Vissicitude it'd just be a badddddd plan.
I was refering to it's modern incarnation when I was refering to Carthage. As I said I never actually went to investigate it but there was word of it rising up in Ireland and some people went to destroy it, they failed miserably on all accounts.
The main reason I don't like Tremere is purely OOC - they have the do everything discipline of Thaumaturgy....
Plus there was this whole thing with a really powerful elder trying to kill us all in a game, heads in boxes, that sort of thing...
I was refering to it's modern incarnation when I was refering to Carthage. As I said I never actually went to investigate it but there was word of it rising up in Ireland and some people went to destroy it, they failed miserably on all accounts.
The main reason I don't like Tremere is purely OOC - they have the do everything discipline of Thaumaturgy....
Plus there was this whole thing with a really powerful elder trying to kill us all in a game, heads in boxes, that sort of thing...
Clearing up some of the confusion around the mysterious Sheriff, whom is inceditially one of my favorite characters. Anyway, here goes;
Chiropteran Marauder does indeed show that the Sheriff has Vicissitude. However, Tzimisce is not the only clan in the oWoD (old World of Darkness) that has Vicissitude. The African Kindred (Laibon) have a clan known as the Nagalopers. Their clan disciplines are Auspex, Vicissitude, and Animalism.
So, let's check the facts here. He's from Africa, and can use both Vicissitude and Animalism disciplines. As far as I'm concerned, the case with the Sheriff is crystal clear.
Chiropteran Marauder does indeed show that the Sheriff has Vicissitude. However, Tzimisce is not the only clan in the oWoD (old World of Darkness) that has Vicissitude. The African Kindred (Laibon) have a clan known as the Nagalopers. Their clan disciplines are Auspex, Vicissitude, and Animalism.
So, let's check the facts here. He's from Africa, and can use both Vicissitude and Animalism disciplines. As far as I'm concerned, the case with the Sheriff is crystal clear.
As I recall the source of the Brujahs anger is mainly due to the fact that Brujah himself was diablerized during the fall of Carthage by his childer and it wrought some changes to the bloodlines. All Brujahs of the modern world are descendants from Brujahs childer and not Brujah himself. The children of Brujah, called true Brujahs, have an discipline which is a far more potent version of celerity. Temporalis or something, which allows them to directly manipulate time. Before the takeover of the clan Brujahs where scholars not rebels. That however, would change. Perhaps a bit of topic, but I though it interesting none the less.
Secondly as the interpretation of the old texts vary, some believes that there where far more than thirteen antidiluvians. Some say there may have been as much as thirty, or even more.
Secondly as the interpretation of the old texts vary, some believes that there where far more than thirteen antidiluvians. Some say there may have been as much as thirty, or even more.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Now if Saulot was stronger than Tremere , why let he let Tremere defeat him.[/QUOTE]
What I was trying to express was that Saulot's sense of self and his sense of his place in the order of things was stronger than Tremere's, thus making his "soul" stronger. I believe he was at peace with himself, which is why he did not fear being diablerlized. While I cannot be sure as to his intentions, here are a two possibilities off the top of my head:
1. Saulot had reached Golconda and transcended vampirism, so perhaps he thought that once Tremere had consumed him that his soul would be set free (instead of trapped or destroyed as seems to be the case when most vampires are diablerized.)
2. Saulot decided that Tremere was dangerous and that his endless thirst for power made him even more treacherous. Tremere obviously would not stop his pursuit of immortality until he found some antediluvian to devour, so Saulot may have believed it better for himself to suffer than another. Perhaps Saulot believed that, given enough time, he could overcome Tremere's soul, thus destroying this dangerous creature forever while at the same time attaining revenge for the pain that Tremere had wrought upon him and his clan. Then he would be free to do as he liked with Clan Tremere; all the better if Clan Tremere didn't realize that behind Tremere's familiar visage lay the soul of Saulot. What better way to infiltrate a clan that you consider dangerous than to pose as their progenitor?
Before you dismiss the second possibility you must realize that Saulot was ancient; so what if his plan was going to take a couple millennia? What's 2,000 years in the life span of someone so ancient? It would be worth it if he could teach Tremere the dangers of lusting after power. After all, revenge is best served cold.
...Or maybe Saulot was miserable and suicidal and decided to let Tremere devour him so he could end his painful existence.
...Or maybe, and this one is a favorite of mine, maybe Saulot just forgot to set his alarm clock? He was supposed to get up and go somewhere but he hit the snooze button too many times. He's a heavy sleeper, you know. I mean, he was slumbering when Tremere found him and devoured him, and he slept through the whole thing! Let's not forget that sloth is one of the seven deadly sins.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Can't imagine the process of diablerization is very pleasant.[/QUOTE]
I don't imagine that it is, but I still think it's more than likely that he allowed himself to be devoured. It seems that this trait stuck with the Salubri through the generations, as the modern day practices of Salubri somewhat mirror Saulot's action. They only allow seven of their clan to exist at a time, and once one of them has achieved Golconda, they sire a new childe. They teach the childe all that they know, at which point they consider their existence complete. They then allow (or force) their childe to diablerize them, thus setting their soul free and preserving the power of blood within their clan as to not weaken their generation. This is their tradition.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]And as you pointed out, he lost his clan due to that.[/QUOTE]
Yes, well, for all that Saulot was, he was not omniscient. I don't think he knew that the Tremere would turn on all this childer and wipe them from the face of the Earth.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Which must have hurt even more, since his old clan was altruistic and very special in the vampire community.
So where is the money?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I completely understand them; their beliefs are somewhat mysterious, but I believe I know where the money is in this situation:
Salubri believe that in order for a soul to be truly free after death, a person must reach Golconda. This not only applies to vampires, but to humans as well. They believe that a person who dies before reaching Golconda is doomed to exist as a wraith.
It is well known that Saulot had reached Golconda. He was the first vampire to ever do so. Perhaps, among other things, Saulot was showing his childer that death is nothing to fear once you have achieved Golconda. He was trying to show them that after reaching Golconda, death was a peaceful release, not a terrible damnation. You have to set a good example for your children, don't you? What better way to show your complete confidence in a path to salvation than to die for your belief?
...But like I said, maybe he just forgot to set his alarm clock...
What I was trying to express was that Saulot's sense of self and his sense of his place in the order of things was stronger than Tremere's, thus making his "soul" stronger. I believe he was at peace with himself, which is why he did not fear being diablerlized. While I cannot be sure as to his intentions, here are a two possibilities off the top of my head:
1. Saulot had reached Golconda and transcended vampirism, so perhaps he thought that once Tremere had consumed him that his soul would be set free (instead of trapped or destroyed as seems to be the case when most vampires are diablerized.)
2. Saulot decided that Tremere was dangerous and that his endless thirst for power made him even more treacherous. Tremere obviously would not stop his pursuit of immortality until he found some antediluvian to devour, so Saulot may have believed it better for himself to suffer than another. Perhaps Saulot believed that, given enough time, he could overcome Tremere's soul, thus destroying this dangerous creature forever while at the same time attaining revenge for the pain that Tremere had wrought upon him and his clan. Then he would be free to do as he liked with Clan Tremere; all the better if Clan Tremere didn't realize that behind Tremere's familiar visage lay the soul of Saulot. What better way to infiltrate a clan that you consider dangerous than to pose as their progenitor?
Before you dismiss the second possibility you must realize that Saulot was ancient; so what if his plan was going to take a couple millennia? What's 2,000 years in the life span of someone so ancient? It would be worth it if he could teach Tremere the dangers of lusting after power. After all, revenge is best served cold.
...Or maybe Saulot was miserable and suicidal and decided to let Tremere devour him so he could end his painful existence.
...Or maybe, and this one is a favorite of mine, maybe Saulot just forgot to set his alarm clock? He was supposed to get up and go somewhere but he hit the snooze button too many times. He's a heavy sleeper, you know. I mean, he was slumbering when Tremere found him and devoured him, and he slept through the whole thing! Let's not forget that sloth is one of the seven deadly sins.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Can't imagine the process of diablerization is very pleasant.[/QUOTE]
I don't imagine that it is, but I still think it's more than likely that he allowed himself to be devoured. It seems that this trait stuck with the Salubri through the generations, as the modern day practices of Salubri somewhat mirror Saulot's action. They only allow seven of their clan to exist at a time, and once one of them has achieved Golconda, they sire a new childe. They teach the childe all that they know, at which point they consider their existence complete. They then allow (or force) their childe to diablerize them, thus setting their soul free and preserving the power of blood within their clan as to not weaken their generation. This is their tradition.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]And as you pointed out, he lost his clan due to that.[/QUOTE]
Yes, well, for all that Saulot was, he was not omniscient. I don't think he knew that the Tremere would turn on all this childer and wipe them from the face of the Earth.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]Which must have hurt even more, since his old clan was altruistic and very special in the vampire community.
So where is the money?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure I completely understand them; their beliefs are somewhat mysterious, but I believe I know where the money is in this situation:
Salubri believe that in order for a soul to be truly free after death, a person must reach Golconda. This not only applies to vampires, but to humans as well. They believe that a person who dies before reaching Golconda is doomed to exist as a wraith.
It is well known that Saulot had reached Golconda. He was the first vampire to ever do so. Perhaps, among other things, Saulot was showing his childer that death is nothing to fear once you have achieved Golconda. He was trying to show them that after reaching Golconda, death was a peaceful release, not a terrible damnation. You have to set a good example for your children, don't you? What better way to show your complete confidence in a path to salvation than to die for your belief?
...But like I said, maybe he just forgot to set his alarm clock...
- Intergalactic
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:27 pm
- Contact:
I like your sleepy vampire theory. After all old fellows like to have long rests.
And he could slumber as long as he wants in Tremere's body. His "host"
would have to take care of feeding them both and running the clan.
Maybe it was Saulot , who stepped up to Tremere and asked him to be diablerized. I imagine after a few millenias drinking blood and playing vampire
power politics gets bit boring. So Tremere took over while Saulot takes a long,
refreshing nap inside Tremere
And if he ever feels like becoming active again, he could struggle for control.
Which would keep him occupied for a while, too. Quite a clever stunt old
Saulot pulled off there.
I understand Golconda is something like Nirvana. Now it would be interesting, when the clan developed that belief.
Picture this:
The higher management of Saulots clan visits him for new orders.
Then they find him diablerized. By a vampire of lower generation ,too.
Now that is not something you can announce to the rest of the clan or, even
worse, the public. Having their sleepy elder drained makes them look like fools.
So Saulots "saw it coming" but he was ready because "he had reached Golconda ". Makes the whole thing look a better already
It would also explain why there are so few left, and why they behave not
in the clan's best interest , as far as survival is concerned.
With Igni's research it indeed looks like Troika wants the cab driver to be Caine and put some effort into getting the details right.
It doesn't explain , of course, *why* Caine has to be in the game.
Isn't Caine's return the beginning of the apocalypse according to lore? (Or Gehenna in vampire terms.) If something like Gehenna happens, i would assume it is caused by the humans finding out about vampires,and not by the return of some elders. How bad can a few old vampires be compared to the destrution and surveliance potential of a modern society?
And he could slumber as long as he wants in Tremere's body. His "host"
would have to take care of feeding them both and running the clan.
Maybe it was Saulot , who stepped up to Tremere and asked him to be diablerized. I imagine after a few millenias drinking blood and playing vampire
power politics gets bit boring. So Tremere took over while Saulot takes a long,
refreshing nap inside Tremere
And if he ever feels like becoming active again, he could struggle for control.
Which would keep him occupied for a while, too. Quite a clever stunt old
Saulot pulled off there.
I understand Golconda is something like Nirvana. Now it would be interesting, when the clan developed that belief.
Picture this:
The higher management of Saulots clan visits him for new orders.
Then they find him diablerized. By a vampire of lower generation ,too.
Now that is not something you can announce to the rest of the clan or, even
worse, the public. Having their sleepy elder drained makes them look like fools.
So Saulots "saw it coming" but he was ready because "he had reached Golconda ". Makes the whole thing look a better already
It would also explain why there are so few left, and why they behave not
in the clan's best interest , as far as survival is concerned.
With Igni's research it indeed looks like Troika wants the cab driver to be Caine and put some effort into getting the details right.
It doesn't explain , of course, *why* Caine has to be in the game.
Isn't Caine's return the beginning of the apocalypse according to lore? (Or Gehenna in vampire terms.) If something like Gehenna happens, i would assume it is caused by the humans finding out about vampires,and not by the return of some elders. How bad can a few old vampires be compared to the destrution and surveliance potential of a modern society?
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]
Isn't Caine's return the beginning of the apocalypse according to lore? (Or Gehenna in vampire terms.) If something like Gehenna happens, i would assume it is caused by the humans finding out about vampires,and not by the return of some elders. How bad can a few old vampires be compared to the destrution and surveliance potential of a modern society? [/QUOTE]
Very....especially when they are in CHARGE of all the human devices.........
Isn't Caine's return the beginning of the apocalypse according to lore? (Or Gehenna in vampire terms.) If something like Gehenna happens, i would assume it is caused by the humans finding out about vampires,and not by the return of some elders. How bad can a few old vampires be compared to the destrution and surveliance potential of a modern society? [/QUOTE]
Very....especially when they are in CHARGE of all the human devices.........
- Intergalactic
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Fri Nov 26, 2004 4:27 pm
- Contact:
But if they wake up, they are not exactly Mr. current affairs. So they are *quite* likely to draw attention to them.(Let's not forgett, that they will probably very thirsty, too )
And after the living part of the human race sees what's what, their secret dream has come true. Finnaly there is something to fight, *everyone* wants annihilated.
And after the living part of the human race sees what's what, their secret dream has come true. Finnaly there is something to fight, *everyone* wants annihilated.
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]So Tremere took over while Saulot takes a long,
refreshing nap inside Tremere [/QUOTE]
Saulot napping inside Tremere... An even better theory than my snooze button idea! Free food, nap as long as you want, and what could be more safe? No one would ever think of looking for Saulot inside of Tremere's mind/soul.
Interesting Golconda conspiracy theory. While one can never be sure, I think that the idea of Golconda was not something the Salubri created on the fly to cover up the "embarrassment" of having their clan founder diablerized. (Remember, Cappadoc was diablerized by Giovanni and the Cappadocians never tried to make lame excuses for their antediluvians's negligence.)
It it quite well established that Saulot had reached Golconda long before he was daiblerized. Somewhat early in his existence he was overcome with grief at the crimes he had witnessed his brothers and sisters in Caine purpetuate. He wandered off to the East and was gone for a long time. When he finally returned from Asia, he had not only mastered the discipline Obeah, but he also had manifested a third eye. It was at this time he was considered to have reached Golconda. He tried to spread his knowledge of Golconda to help others, but most of the other cainites of that time were too busy warring with each other and slaughtering each other to pay any attention.
Feigning having attained Golconda would be nearly impossible. There are clear signs that a cainite has transcended the state of vampirism: they gain complete control over the beast and never frenzy again, their power in relation to their generation becomes meaningless and they are able to attain mastery of any discipline, but here's the clencher: they no longer suffer from Rötschreck and are immune to damage from the sun. A vampire faking ascention would be hard pressed to go walking around in the sunlight for as long as they wanted and suffer no damage.
C'mon, I mean, he had a third eye when he came back from the East. That's got to count for something. Either that's a clear sign of enlightenment or it's a case of plastic surgery gone horribly wrong... Maybe he didn't speak the language very well and his request got lost in translation. ("What is THIS? I told you people I wanted you to make my eyes look younger and less tired! I wanted you to do something about these wrinkles, bags and dark circles... I didn't want ANOTHER EYE! I want my money back!)
----------------
And on a more on topic note, I now officially refuse to believe that the cab driver was Caine. Yes, that seems to be what the game designers had intended (the "Caine" sound clips folder and the aura are good proof of this), but I will remain happily in denial. In MY reality, Caine does NOT awaken from his long slumber and think to himself: "You know, I really need to learn how to drive!" He does NOT then happily trot off to take driving lessons in order to satisfy his life-long aspiration of driving a cab around L.A. He also does NOT spend his time using his newly earned driving skills to tote around a neonate nobody and give them Dr. Phil-like advice:
"Mr. Cab Driver, I don't know what to do... I think I want to join the anarchs, but all I've known since my embrace has been the Camarilla."
"...And how's that workin' for you?"
refreshing nap inside Tremere [/QUOTE]
Saulot napping inside Tremere... An even better theory than my snooze button idea! Free food, nap as long as you want, and what could be more safe? No one would ever think of looking for Saulot inside of Tremere's mind/soul.
Interesting Golconda conspiracy theory. While one can never be sure, I think that the idea of Golconda was not something the Salubri created on the fly to cover up the "embarrassment" of having their clan founder diablerized. (Remember, Cappadoc was diablerized by Giovanni and the Cappadocians never tried to make lame excuses for their antediluvians's negligence.)
It it quite well established that Saulot had reached Golconda long before he was daiblerized. Somewhat early in his existence he was overcome with grief at the crimes he had witnessed his brothers and sisters in Caine purpetuate. He wandered off to the East and was gone for a long time. When he finally returned from Asia, he had not only mastered the discipline Obeah, but he also had manifested a third eye. It was at this time he was considered to have reached Golconda. He tried to spread his knowledge of Golconda to help others, but most of the other cainites of that time were too busy warring with each other and slaughtering each other to pay any attention.
Feigning having attained Golconda would be nearly impossible. There are clear signs that a cainite has transcended the state of vampirism: they gain complete control over the beast and never frenzy again, their power in relation to their generation becomes meaningless and they are able to attain mastery of any discipline, but here's the clencher: they no longer suffer from Rötschreck and are immune to damage from the sun. A vampire faking ascention would be hard pressed to go walking around in the sunlight for as long as they wanted and suffer no damage.
C'mon, I mean, he had a third eye when he came back from the East. That's got to count for something. Either that's a clear sign of enlightenment or it's a case of plastic surgery gone horribly wrong... Maybe he didn't speak the language very well and his request got lost in translation. ("What is THIS? I told you people I wanted you to make my eyes look younger and less tired! I wanted you to do something about these wrinkles, bags and dark circles... I didn't want ANOTHER EYE! I want my money back!)
----------------
And on a more on topic note, I now officially refuse to believe that the cab driver was Caine. Yes, that seems to be what the game designers had intended (the "Caine" sound clips folder and the aura are good proof of this), but I will remain happily in denial. In MY reality, Caine does NOT awaken from his long slumber and think to himself: "You know, I really need to learn how to drive!" He does NOT then happily trot off to take driving lessons in order to satisfy his life-long aspiration of driving a cab around L.A. He also does NOT spend his time using his newly earned driving skills to tote around a neonate nobody and give them Dr. Phil-like advice:
"Mr. Cab Driver, I don't know what to do... I think I want to join the anarchs, but all I've known since my embrace has been the Camarilla."
"...And how's that workin' for you?"
[QUOTE=Intergalactic]But if they wake up, they are not exactly Mr. current affairs. So they are *quite* likely to draw attention to them.[/QUOTE]
Now, now, let's not underestimate an ancient vampire! We have clear proof that even the eldest of all vampires was able to awaken and blend right into society: Caine WAS driving a car, and you know they didn't have those types of newfangled devices when he was last awake.
America, apparently, is indeed the land of opportunity after all: even Caine, who was QUITE the criminal being that he was the first person to EVER murder ANYONE, was able to move to L.A. and make a good living for himself as a taxi driver.
Need a ride? Call "Caine's Cabs!"
Now, now, let's not underestimate an ancient vampire! We have clear proof that even the eldest of all vampires was able to awaken and blend right into society: Caine WAS driving a car, and you know they didn't have those types of newfangled devices when he was last awake.
America, apparently, is indeed the land of opportunity after all: even Caine, who was QUITE the criminal being that he was the first person to EVER murder ANYONE, was able to move to L.A. and make a good living for himself as a taxi driver.
Need a ride? Call "Caine's Cabs!"