Level gaining

[stolider]

Again, my friend, I understand what you're saying. Yet, altough both surround the same issue, you're first post has a very different point than the second. Regarding you're second post, I couldn't agree more. I loved the part with the hero of Trademeet, and that sais it all.

[jonschneider]

I actually enjoyed the plot of throne of bhaal more than either BGI or BGII. I kinda adhere to the opinion of many that if you want the kinda plot you're talking about, sellsword, you need to read a book. of course i haven't played all that many rpg games for the pc. there may be games out there with much more involved plotting. If so i would definitely like to check em out.

I do agree with the desire for better AI scripting on all sides of the game, but as KillerKid brought up, i do wonder if such detailed AI is feasible (that spelling doesn't look right...). Not only would it require tons of memory, thereby slowing down the game significantly, but it would also take the developers next to forever to go through and create custom AI for all the npcs of the game. I really don't know much about this though, so I could be talking out my ace.

[Xyx]

Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>Xyx - I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but adventure games are marked out not only by their total lack of character development, but also by their near total lack of plot and focus on all-out action (Tomb Raider anyone?) and so have little relevence to my point.</STRONG>

Uhm... I meant games such as Secret of Monkey Island and Fable. Definitely not Tomb Raider, which I would qualify as an action/platform game with bits of "adventurous activities" thrown in.

Originally posted by Sellsword:
<STRONG>it would not require 80 million possible responses as you suggest. Just ten variables would be a refreshing change and they would lead to a game of almost unparalleled replayability.</STRONG>

Making a complex game like that obviously takes more time and money than the developers were willing to spend on BG.

Take the Jaheira romance for example. It's one of the most intrusive plots in the game, probably second only to the main storyline. It's bugged almost beyond playability! It doesn't even have ten variables per plot item, yet it is so unwieldy within the game that the developers could not keep track of all the odds and ends.

Making such a complex game is possible, but I would expect the game industry to go for a quick(er) buck instead.

[der Moench]

Well, I LIKE gaining levels and getting better 'stuff,' but I understand the issue. Does anyone remember a PnP RPG called 'Rune Quest' - ? In that game you never gained the kind of sheer Godlike powers that AD&D allows, and I really enjoyed it: it MADE you role-play a but more, rather than just falling into a hack'n'slash mentality. It would indeed be difficult to make such a game into a CRPG, but maybe with some of these new MMPORGs (or whatever the heck the acronym is), where there is more 'human' control. On the other hand, I must say SoA had a great story line, that kept me very interested in continuing to hack my way towards Imoen and (later) Bodhi and Irenicus. (I should note that I have not yet played ToB.) So ... I understand Sellsword's 'gripes,' and maybe designers will listen in on this site and try to change up their style a bit, but in the meantime - I still like the Baldur's Gate games!

[Fezek]

Here's my two pence worth. I must admit that I've found a lot of the complaints on this board a little over the top. But something has dawned on me and that is playing this by myself is nowhere near as interesting as playing with someone else sitting next to you. I play with my lass and we have ruddy good fun. Even a game as simple as Diablo 2 is more fun in Multiplayer mode than playing the BG-series by myself. There is so much extra interaction when you play with another person sitting next to you. We actually buy games only if you can play multiplayer games. Somebody bought me Wizards and Warriors but it has no MP mode so I just switched off after a day or two. Same with Deus Ex. But SoA in multiplayer mode just is the business. I haven't installed ToB yet, so I comment on what it is like.

Oh and here is a joke;

two Irish guys are sitting in a bar drinking when they notice a methodist priest enter a brothel across from them
A-" Tis a shame to see a man of the cloth succumb to sinful pleasure"
B-"Aye"

Later they notice a Rabbi do the same thing;
A-"Tis a shame to see such a high ranking Hebrew fall foul of the pleasures of the flesh"
B-"Aye"

The they notice a catholic bishop enter the same brothel;
A-" What a pity..one of the girls must be quite ill"
B-"Aye"

[StillSouth]

Xyx

There is no enemy in the game that casts Simulacrum or Project Image (two of the most powerul spells available) that I know of

I thought liches cast these, eg Shangalar, and a few others i've come across.

[KillerKid]

wel it might not take 80million but would still conribly take up alot of space think about how much space bg2 takes up already and it has what 2 or 3 resonces that end up doing the same thing. Well you would have to multiply that many tiems over to be able to get 10 and having then each effect something difrent they made the game this way so that you cant acidently say something and screw over the whole game. ever notice that there are only a couple instances where saying something chances any part of any of the plot. They didnt make talking in thg ame acually very important they made actions important. it would take to long to acualy finisht he game you want and it wouldn't even be an rpg but an adventure game and they do technaly have those out there. If you want ag ame where you dont get bigger better weapons and such play a game called Zork there are like 2 or 3 sequels to i think that its a decent game. it sounds kidna like what you want where instead of investigating it from a fighters point you investigate it from like a dectivies point also i would recomend this game called majestic its this huge game that happens in real life. i saw it in pcgamer it aperntly is like puts you in a real life murder mystery with people calling you in the middle of hte night and you getting anoymous aim msges and such.

[Firecc]

First of all: BGII is a great game!

But I understand why certain things irritate players. For one thing - reputation. The only time the game recognizes you is in Trademeet. I don't think it is too hard to implement more of that kind of stuff into a game. A reputation of 20 is "heroic", well, does anyone notice a difference? Lets say Arnold Schwatzneger (misspelled, but U know who I mean), walked into a bar. People would be exited and a few would even dare to ask for an autograph. Fame like a global rock star but nobody noticees me - except the bad guys.

My point is that thay should have concentrated more on the social atmosphere rather then hack' and slash. I loved the Trademeet quest and was very disappointed after solving the skin murder quest. The captain said "thanks" and nobody really cared in the bridge district after that.


(I remember DiabloII: They *really* want you to save their skins but you have to pay for every single arrow, every repair, every potion. No discount here. Sucks.)

[Valorhan]

I enjoyed Diablo2 multiplayer but BG2 was probably one of the best games I've ever played. I mean in Diablo2, it was just plain hack-and-slash and finding random 'rare' items. In the BG series however, you were immersed in a intriguing plot (like I said, one of the best plots I've seen in a computer game) and there were many interesting role-playing possiblities which kept me playing the game over and over again. As a conclusion, I want to say that, despite all its shortcomings (the developers probably did the best they can), the BG series has got to be one of the BEST games that I have ever played.

I can't wait until Neverwinter Nights come out.

[Xyx]

Heh, I love to bash BG as much as the next person, but I don't think anyone in this thread (or any thread on this board, for that matter) thinks BG isn't one of the best (if not the best) games they've ever played.

When you are really interested in something, you pay such close attention that even minute details become obvious. The kind of inconsistencies BG shows would not be as apparent to me in a game such as Diablo or Final Fantasy. I simply wouldn't care enough to notice...

[cgardenh]

Try the Thief games. They are first person but still cool. The character interaction is still just so-so but the motivations of the character at least in the cut scenes are cool. Not much roleplaying opp. But at least it makes sense. you never get better with skills and seldom gain powerful items. You have to rely on getting better at hitting things. and guess what you don't have to kill everything you see to be sucessful at the game.

[average joe]

i've only played the first thief, but i can definitely say it rocked. play it in a dark room in the middle of the night....i gurantee you'll be looking over your shoulders.

[cgardenh]

lol AJ lot's of ambiance.

[Catcher]

Much of the important ground has been covered already, I'll try to minimize how much I rehash.

1: Leveling Up and Magic Item Inflation - As has been said before, the real reason for this is probably not so much laziness as sales. Have you seen the numbers for Diablo II? I unserstand they're at least 10 times the sales numbers for BG II and 100+ times the sales of Planescape: Torment. Not that this is right, but dedicated programmers and developers do have to eat. That said, I do agree that there should be more non-stat driven rewards. Several good ideas have already been tossed about here; it might also be good to have more intense, non-party NPC interactions, like Vendettas to balance out Romances. More realistic within the existing sales paradigm might be to remove the automatic XPs for killing critters, picking locks, scribing spells and spreading out the "mission" XPs into different pathways in solving the quest. Case in point: in the Ghoul Lord's domain your PC has a chance to allow the undead "town" to survive peacefully. It's really hard to do that though when you know about the loot and XPs to be gained by destroying them. If you didn't get the XPs and couldn't just take the loot, then you might be more tempted to try a peaceful way. Even more interesting might be a system of XPs by path that also references your PPC's class and alignment. Thus, when faced with an encampment of enemy soldiers and the options fight, evade, talk (con) you'd get more for option 1 if you were an evil warlord (you get more stuff and can move more quickly that way), more for option 2 if you're ANY kind of rogue, and more for option 3 if you were a good mage. Note: This is just a broad example

2: Opponent Intellegence and Interactivity - In part, Sellsword, I'm henching this over from one of your other topics One way to resolve this is being tried in NWN, where a human GM can "step into" an opponent and control him/her/it/them. Doesn't resolve cases where hundreds of people might be playing on one server, but could be really nice on a small private server-world. What would be better would be to have "villians" rather than "bosses". If new engines allow NPCs to do more than simply follow your party through a door in combat, maybe we can have villians who actually make and carry out plans while you're adventuring. It would certainly put a little fire under those who dally before saving Imoen (imagine if Irenicus could "brainwash" Imoen ). Even more fun, it might randomize encounters more. Imagine the chagrin on the boards if one person saved "Renfield" from poisoning took him back to a building to get rewarded by the Harpers while another save "Renfield" and was led to a nasty encounter with a villians flesh golems The problem here, as with most of the AI and multiple pathway suggestions, is the demand on computing power. Once again, selling copies raises its ugly head. If you raise the minimum specs by say 100 MhZ these days you cut out a good 10% of your market.

Oi! Enough spouting, you can all wake up now