Just started and I love it

stormcloud · Post by **stormcloud** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:40 am

Sith = nazis, as it should be.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:38 pm

What exactly do you mean by that? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I tend to believe that one can compare the Sith reasonably to many regimes other than just the Nazis.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:13 pm

Not to mention, Star Wars darksiders are most like 19th century melodramatic villains: exaggerated monsters, designed by George Lucas to impress ten-year-olds. The Nazis were human beings who acted as they did in reallife for a wide range of reasons--which when you think about it, was a lot worse.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:42 pm

Longwinded reply, not aimed at anyone in particular

The thing about RPGs is that they have tremendous applicability if they are designed well, and I think that is what makes them fun. Everyone identifies with parts of a story and draws parallels. However, usually straight allegorical comparisons don't apply well to RPGs, or fantasy in general.

For example, the Sith as a political group in KoToR are characterized as power-hungry, expansionist, and very focused on "zero-sum games"- meaning that they think resources are limited and the more they have, the less everyone else has, and that is good for them. If you look back to the 20th century, the most expansionist and meddlesome nation was, for the most part, the USA!

However, if you say that the Sith are characterized by a lack of human rights, rigid top-down political structure, and an exceptionally strong ideology, then the 20th century equivalent I would say is the USSR!

So, the Sith can represent the USA or the USSR, depending upon how you pick and choose characteristics. However, the truth is that the Sith do not correlate directly to either group very well.

I don't mean to be condescending about this, but saying that the Sith= Nazis is a little inaccurate. It's like saying that the One Ring in the Lord of the Rings= Nuclear Energy, or that the Elves= Hindu Bodhisattvas. There may be similar characteristics, but that is probably the extent of it.

This isn't a term paper or a personal attack. stormcloud, your post just got me thinking, and I have too much spare time at work.

Darth Coran · Post by **Darth Coran** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:08 pm

now when you say that the USA took the most away from others would also be a gross characteristic,the Usa sought to help other countries.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:02 pm

Guys, this is turning more into a thread about realworld corrolaries to the Sith--if such a thing can be imagined for stovepipe hat villains--rather than anything concerning KotoR. As such, I'm moving it to the SYM (Speak Your Mind) forum. Feel free to post about it, there.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]The thing about RPGs is that they have tremendous applicability if they are designed well, and I think that is what makes them fun. Everyone identifies with parts of a story and draws parallels. However, usually straight allegorical comparisons don't apply well to RPGs, or fantasy in general.

For example, the Sith as a political group in KoToR are characterized as power-hungry, expansionist, and very focused on "zero-sum games"- meaning that they think resources are limited and the more they have, the less everyone else has, and that is good for them. If you look back to the 20th century, the most expansionist and meddlesome nation was, for the most part, the USA!

However, if you say that the Sith are characterized by a lack of human rights, rigid top-down political structure, and an exceptionally strong ideology, then the 20th century equivalent I would say is the USSR!

So, the Sith can represent the USA or the USSR, depending upon how you pick and choose characteristics. However, the truth is that the Sith do not correlate directly to either group very well.

I don't mean to be condescending about this, but saying that the Sith= Nazis is a little inaccurate. It's like saying that the One Ring in the Lord of the Rings= Nuclear Energy, or that the Elves= Hindu Bodhisattvas. There may be similar characteristics, but that is probably the extent of it.

This isn't a term paper or a personal attack. stormcloud, your post just got me thinking, and I have too much spare time at work.

[/QUOTE]

I've never looked at it that way, I have to say I agree altogether with you there.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:15 pm

I want him for SYM....

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:20 pm

[QUOTE=Aegis]I want him for SYM....

[/QUOTE]

Aegis, first, whom are we speaking of.

Second, have you given up on trying to net Brynn? Moving on to fresh meat?

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:22 pm

[QUOTE=Magrus]Aegis, first, whom are we speaking of.

Second, have you given up on trying to net Brynn? Moving on to fresh meat?

[/QUOTE]
Stop being jealous. And no, I haven't given up on Brynn. She shall be the queen of Spam someday

and I was talking about Cuchulain. Interesting point of view on the sith and such.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:34 pm

[QUOTE=Aegis]Stop being jealous. And no, I haven't given up on Brynn. She shall be the queen of Spam someday

and I was talking about Cuchulain. Interesting point of view on the sith and such.[/QUOTE]

Jealous? No, just curious.

I agree, we should kidnap him and keep him for SYM purposes.

Looks like we spammed this thing already. Welcome to SYM!

CopperWater · Post by **CopperWater** » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:59 pm

I think America should be represented as the wookies. Just cause i am an American with a love for Chewbacca.

Macleod1701 · Post by **Macleod1701** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:02 am

I don't beleive this is either the time nor the place to be discusiing your sexual fantasies regarding large hairy americans that can't speak properly love trees.

If GL in his ultimate wisdom, (that made me laugh) made the Sith to represent any country it would probably just be an amalgamation of all the oppresive militaristic states

stormcloud · Post by **stormcloud** » Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:38 pm

well imho;
1. sith = powerful war machine
2. sith = racists with genocidal plans (concentration camps for aliens)

also if u look at the star wars 4-6, especially ANH, george based a lot of the movie on world war II movies.

1. in the cantina, the bith play music from ww2/ww2 films
2. Imperials wear grey like Wermacht, as well as have Storm Troopers

storm trooper: Definition and Much More From Answers.com
storm trooper n. A member of the Nazi militia noted for brutality and ... [From
storm troops, translation of German Sturmtruppen : Sturm(abteilung), ...

3. escape from death star = b17 scenes where bombers fight off mescherschmitts
4. death star bombing run = ww2 bombing runs

i dont deny you can apply the Imperial/Sith theme to many other regimes, but for me it just clicks with the whole German/Nazi/Military/World conquest segment of history.

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:46 am

More spam

1. sith = powerful war machine

This is not unique to the Sith or the Nazis. What nation today spends the most on defense? (It is really a lot of money, by some calculations at much as the remaining top 50 Defense spenders in the world)

2. sith = racists with genocidal plans (concentration camps for aliens)

This isn't unique to the Sith or Nazis either. Genocide is a recurring theme in history for many countries- from Ancient Roman conquest to the current state in the Sudan in North Africa.

Which alien concentration camps do you mean?

also if u look at the star wars 4-6, especially ANH, george based a lot of the movie on world war II movies.

1. in the cantina, the bith play music from ww2/ww2 films
2. Imperials wear grey like Wermacht, as well as have Storm Troopers

storm trooper: Definition and Much More From Answers.com
storm trooper n. A member of the Nazi militia noted for brutality and ... [From
storm troops, translation of German Sturmtruppen : Sturm(abteilung), ...

3. escape from death star = b17 scenes where bombers fight off mescherschmitts
4. death star bombing run = ww2 bombing runs

That's Star Wars the movie, not KoToR. In the first 3 movies the Sith do not even exist, per se. They are added in to the story later as Star Wars gained popularity, but at the time the first movies were made there is no mention of "the Sith". Maybe George Lucas had the back-story planned to include the Sith, but really in the first 3 movies the bad guys doing all the Nazi-type activities are part of the Empire, not the Sith. The two groups are distinct- the head of the Empire is a Sith, but the people carrying out the bombing runs and garden-variety bad guy tactics are basically just Army men directed by generals and bureaucrats (sound familiar?). Besides, the Emperor comes across as cold and impassionate, concerned only with power. This is very different from the historical Hitler as I understand him- very passionate, both in character and his beliefs about the Aryan race.

And, since the movie was made in 1977 with very little money, can you really blame George Lucas for borrowing heavily from the WWII idea of fighter-bomber pilots? I think it works well, right down to the music.

As far as movies 4-6 go though, think about who the enemy is- not Stormtroopers but Robots. You can interpret this however you want, but the themes of dehumanization and "man vs. machine" are usually associated with WWI (LOTR), Communism (the "pod people" idea) and Impiricism/Colonialism ("Things Fall Apart" "The Battle of Algeirs"). WWII was about an excess of humanity (persecution, ego, racial superiority) not a lack of it.

I had a lot more typed out, but in the interest of brevity I erased it to see how you, stormcloud, respond.

Re: Fable
Sorry to keep posting via KoToR- I couldn't find the thread in SYM.