Is there a hierarchy for sci fi shows?

stormcloud · Post by **stormcloud** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:00 am

I was just looking through Stargate at tvtome.com and saw Claudia Black on there... so I was just wondering if actors or people ever go "man, this isn't Star Trek" and if so, what do you think the penultimate/legendary shows are and what do you think the bottom barrel are?

I guess you could make the same argument for sci fi movies. Do you think Star Wars is number one? I'd just like someone to step forward and say no they think Star Trek or something else is better, and explain why.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:08 am

Star Trek made sci fi popular. I would say specifically TNG. They did it for everybody. They helped increase popularity in the genre so that other Roddenbury shows also good got attention. Then Babylon 5 also got it. Now we have Battlestar Galatica which is doing well.

Some shows such like Star Gate. I don't like it. Andromeda is good but they spin stuff to far away for my taste.

If there is a hierarchy, the entire Star Trek Universe takes the top five slots. Except for Enterprise. Those idiots messed so much with the history its pathetic.

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:13 am

[QUOTE=stormcloud]I'd just like someone to step forward and say no they think Star Trek or something else is better, and explain why.[/QUOTE]
no, you're looking to start a fight. I'd start, but I must admit to a certain love of bad sci-fi, and my opinions are probably best ignored...

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:07 pm

[QUOTE=CM]Star Trek made sci fi popular. I would say specifically TNG.[QUOTE]

I would say that the Battlestar Galactica / Star Trek combination really paved the road. That was the time Sci-fi took off... even though the original Start Trek didn't always do very well.

What do you by sayng that Battlestar Galatica which is doing well? Is there a new show? (though I do know of talk of a new movie IIRC)

CM · Post by CM » Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:40 pm

Those two originals did it in the 1970s. But then TNG made it gold in the late 80s and 90s and then you have spin offs and other Roddenbury material like Earth Final Conflict and Andromeda. There were i think 4 tv shows created by Gene Roddenbury on tv during the 90s.

Battle is now on the Sci Fi channel. They have started a new series and stuff. Pretty good. Very popular from what i have seen.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:01 pm

[QUOTE=CM]Battle is now on the Sci Fi channel. They have started a new series and stuff. Pretty good. Very popular from what i have seen.[/QUOTE]

Cool, I didn't know of it yet.

BTW, you think Andromeda is good?
I've watched it and find it of terrible quality... a Farscape spinoff but poorly. Horrible actors (Hercules?

) and an awfull setting.

Now Farscape, that's a good show!
Took some getting used to though.

CM · Post by CM » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:15 pm

Andromeda is bad. Good idea very bad implementation. Though the girl Andromeda is hot.

Farscape is good if you know whats going on. I liked the first season after that i missed 2 or 3 seasons and now i am completely lost. Very difficult story to follow. But good story once you get it.

I would personally suggest for Farscape that people start with season 1 ep 1 and then do it in order to figure out what is going on.

I know Stilgar is a big sci fi fan. Ask him if it comes on tv in Holland.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:34 pm

[QUOTE=CM]

I know Stilgar is a big sci fi fan. Ask him if it comes on tv in Holland.[/QUOTE]

Not anymore unfortunately, I used to watch it.
I saw most episodes.

Robnark · Post by **Robnark** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:55 pm

[QUOTE=Rob-hin]BTW, you think Andromeda is good?
I've watched it and find it of terrible quality... a Farscape spinoff but poorly. Horrible actors (Hercules?

) and an awfull setting.[/QUOTE]
it's rubbish. I love it. although I used to watch in black and white, and I became certain the ship should be yellow. and yes, the lead used to be Hercules in the TV series, as well as appearing in some really poor fantasy films. and CM is right - very hot android.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:21 pm

I'm really surprised that no one besides Stormcloud has mentioned Star Wars. I have enjoyed science fiction ever since I was a little kid, so I've always been aware of science fiction movies and TV series. The Outer Limits, The Twilight Zone, and movies like Forbidden Planet were popular long before Star Trek came along. But if you want to make a case about which franchise really brought sci-fi to the mainstream and revolutionized the way that science fiction is made, it has to be Star Wars. People tuned into Battlestar Galactica because they couldn't get enough of Star Wars. The older kind of science fiction (which didn't have the big budgets or the technology for really great special effects) relied upon interesting concepts and characters rather than lots of action and simple conflicts between good and evil. Star Wars took the premise of a western, added a bunch of goofy characters, and made it into a WWII-type movie. Every new Star Wars film follows the same pattern as the original, and they're all as popular as ever. But it's nice to see that other franchises like Stargate, Alien, etc. and movies like Blade Runner have remained sophisticated even while most science fiction has been "dumbed down" for mass consumption.

I don't really want to get into a discussion about Star Trek: The Next Generation, except to say that the only reason I ever watched it was because it was called "Star Trek". It contains some of the same visions that Gene Roddenberry had for the original Star Trek series, but otherwise, there's no way to compare them side by side. The old series took place in a world that was always on the brink of war, while the new series took place in a world where conflict did not exist. Since you can't have a plot without some sort of conflict, the scriptwriters did their best to invent some, usually along the lines of "the Holodeck is malfunctioning so we actually have a problem to solve now" or "Data doesn't know how to deal with human emotions". I can't believe they came up with seven years of that stuff and I can't believe that people actually watched it, but obviously, it possessed some sort of appeal.

When it comes to plot, I prefer the plots of any of the old Star Trek episodes or even the plots of any of the Star Wars movies, not to mention the plot of almost any episode of The Twilight Zone or The Outer Limits. But if you want a hierarchy of science fiction, it will always be based on personal taste. Do you prefer Ursula LeGuin or Larry Niven? They're so different, I don't know how you'd compare them.

Godslayer · Post by **Godslayer** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:51 pm

I have to agree with VonDondu. Star Wars did pave the way. A modern example is when Episode 1 came out. You had people sleeping on the ground in front of the ticket booth for days before the opening. I didn't see that with Star Trek: First Contact. Granted, it probably has something to do with the fact that there is a Star Trek TV show that people can watch to satisfy their craving, but, IMO, it still doesn't compare with Star Wars. Also, SW has far reaching effects into the "normal" world. Everyone knows where "use the force" and "Luke, I am your father" came from. Granted, most people do know where "Beam me up, Scotty" is from too. But Star Wars has been much more influencial in mainstream culture than anything else, IMHO.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:04 pm

[QUOTE=Godslayer]Everyone knows where "use the force" and "Luke, I am your father" came from. Granted, most people do know where "Beam me up, Scotty" is from too...[/QUOTE]
IBM named one of their commercial operating systems OS/2 "Warp". Warp? What the heck does that mean? Is it bent or something?

CM · Post by CM » Wed Mar 30, 2005 1:14 pm

Von i agree with you. Personally i like Dr. Who as well. But i rank star wars as a movie series and different from the TV shows. I don't think the two can be compared. Plus honestly the current star wars hype is because nobody had seen a new star wars movie for what 10 years? That builds up expectations and popularity.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:58 am

I have rather unpopular ideas about sci-fi, but I suppose that's what this is for.

I liked original Star Trek, but I don't think it was at all high quality. The concept of the commanding officer going down to fight aliens himself is rediculous. The plots were all the same. The acting cheesey. I still liked it, but I'm a nerd.

I also think that there was nothing revolutionary about Star Wars except the effects and the pulp content. It's not really a sci-fi flick IMO, it's action. Plus, I subscribe to the theory that Star Wars is a blatant rip-off of Dune. Now there's a good sci-fi. The book is a bilion times better than any of the movies could be though.

Vicsun · Post by **Vicsun** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:16 pm

Dune. Now there's a good sci-fi. The book is a bilion times better than any of the movies could be though.

While I've never been into sci-fi, I have to admit to being a big fan of Dune

I've read all 6 books and loved them; the prequels, however, I don't dare touch.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:26 pm

[QUOTE=jopperm2]Plus, I subscribe to the theory that Star Wars is a blatant rip-off of Dune. [/QUOTE]

Why? They both have a desert, but IMO the equasion stops there.

Naturally there is the space vs planet dune contridiction, but that can be overlooked.
However, I find it hard to find similarities for Darth Vader = Prins Harconnen?, The empire = House Harconnen?, Jedi's = The Fremen?
None of them realy match IMO, so I'd like to know why you feel that way.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:11 pm

SW: Princess Leia D: Princess Alia (pronounced a-leia)

SW: Villain turns out to be hero's father D: Villain turns out to be hero's grandfather

SW:Tatooine a desert planet D: Arrakis (Dune) a desert planet

SW: Sandcrawler - Vehicle piloted by Jawas, "left over from a forgotten mining era long ago" D: Sandcrawler - Vehicle piloted by Arrakins, used to mine for spice

SW: Moisture Farmers (like Uncle Owen) D: Dew Collectors: "...used by Fremen to line concave planting depressions where they provide a small but reliable source of water"

SW: Spice Mines of Kessel D: Spice is the most valued commodity in the universe, mined from Dune

SW: Jedi Mind Trick - Jedi ability which controls the actions of others D: The Voice - Bene Gesserit ability which controls the actions of others

SW: Jedi Bendu, the Jedi training technique which gives them excellent internal control as well as supernatural prowess in combat D: Prana Bindu, the Bene Gesserit training technique which gives them excellent internal control as well as supernatural prowess in combat

SW: Vision of Obi-Wan appears to Luke on Hoth, while he's seemingly dying D: Vision of Pardot Kynes appears to Liet-Kynes in the desert, while he's dying

SW: The Trade Federation has a monopoly on shipping in space D: The Spacing Guild has a monopoly on shipping and transportation in space

SW: Luke practices his lightsaber technique against an automated training remote D: Alia practices her sword technique against an automated training dummy

SW: Millennium Falcon barely escapes from the jaws of giant, sightless space slug before it falls back into the asteroid. D: The Duke's ornithopter barely escapes from the jaws of a giant, sightless sandworm before it falls back into the dunes.

S: Luke spies on the Sandpeople using electrobinoculars D: Paul spies on the Fremen using electric binoculars

SW: Repulsors - Small devices which counteract gravity (used in the landspeeder, speeder bikes, pod racers and Jabba's barge) D: Suspensors - Small devices which counteract gravity (used to suspend the Baron Harkonnen and Glowglobes)

SW: Jabba (1983) is a worm/slug thing, about 15 feet long, with human-like facial features, arms and hands, who sits atop a dais D: Leto II, God Emperor of Dune (1981), is a worm/slug thing, about 15 feet long, with human-like facial features, arms and hands, who sits atop a dais

There's a start.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:26 pm

Wow, now I'm motivated to go start reading the whole Dune series. Never knew what it was about before.

Stunning resemblences there.

I've always been more into the whole fantasy thing. I like the whole thought of wars fought face to face and armor and stuff like that. Not some guy with a blaster rifle blowing away anything that comes in range. I like the whole magic concept far better than space ships as well.

There was only one show that had a sci-fi theme I enjoyed but that was about a decade ago and I only saw it once at about 3 am. Being 12 and at that time at night, I can't recall what show it was at all.

I did like the concepts involved with the Star Wars series though. Looking at what jop posted though, made me curious about looking all that up in the Dune series.

jopperm2 · Post by **jopperm2** » Thu Mar 31, 2005 2:36 pm

Combat is very up close and personal in dune. THere are guns and whatnot, but a lot of it is done with blades.

They are masterpieces IMHO.

Rob-hin · Post by **Rob-hin** » Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:59 am

Ok ok, you convinced me.
Thanks for the information, interesting stuff.