Debating Buying Need Advice

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:26 pm

I have downloaded the 233 Mg demo so I could try ToEE and see if I wanted to spend $$ on it now (or wait till it hits the bargin bin). I have loaded the demo on my PC (2.4 Ghz) 40 Mg hard drive using XP. When I went to open it, a browser popped up. Do I need to go on line just to use the demo or is that to register it? As I downloaded the demo I didn't get an instruction manual (that I am aware of). I really don't want to go on and stay on line to play a demo. I don't want to get hit with a bunch of pop-ups and spam. I know some of the newer RPG's are playable only on line. Is ToEE one of these? I don't see any mention of it in the reviews I read?
Thanks

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:20 pm

I'm afraid I can't help with the demo, as I've never seen it or heard anything about it. I just wanted to say go ahead and spring for the game. In most places, it is already in the bargain bin, and will not cost much more than $10-15. At that price it's a bargain, even if you only play for five or six hours. Chances are really good you'll be playing for a lot longer than that, so go for it. Just be sure to patch it first, because you'll just get frustrated with the plain disc version. Apply atari's patch 2, then temple.zip; or patch 2, co8 3.0.4, then temple.zip (this changes the game for reasons other than repairing mistakes made by the programmers, who were rused, whereas patch 2 and temple.zip just make it run better/more accurately). Do not apply patch 3. If you want more info on this, just ask. There's a post a bit down the list here with all the links you'll need to get the patches. Just buy the game. You'll be glad you did.

PS: Like your name, there, Philos.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:32 am

Thanks for the help

Thank You for the advice Lord Plothos. I will pick up a copy and download the patches. I was intrigued when it saw it released (I remembered it from my gaming days) but started to worry when I began hearing about bugs. I was hoping to see more of the Greyhawk World but since the developer is going down I guess we are not likely to see more.

Thanks too for the compliment.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:33 pm

I actually have heard that someone has (or is interested) in buying the rights to the game's engine (which is very good). Much of the d20 system is hard-coded as part of the engine, from what I understand, so it may be that this move was made in the interest of putting out more D&D games, though they may or may not be Greyhawk, even then. Still, there's some hope.

But, yeah, bugs are no longer an issue, thanks to the work of many dedicated modders.

PS: Is sophia the object of your philos, by any chance?

Raumoheru · Post by **Raumoheru** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:43 pm

to answer your second question,

ToEE is not playable online AT ALL.

sorry

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:56 pm

Thanks for the Help

Been gone for a week, first chance to reply. My thanks to both of you, Raumoheru & Lord Plothos. Raumoheru, I am glad ToEE is not Online. I hate having to go online just to play a game. I didn't purchase a couple of really great looking games just because they required to do so. Too many hackers and viruses. I have firewalls and such but the less time online, the less chance of being infected.
Lord Plothos to answer your question, yes, among other things sophia is indeed in that category.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:48 am

Cool, me too. Anyway, glad we could help. Don't hesitate to drop a line if you want any advice. There's not much going on with this board, but I still check it daily just in case.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 2:35 pm

Picked It Up

Well,

I found it this weekend at Best Buy, and as you said only $10. I forgot about needing the patches and I have installed it and played it a good bit already. I remembered it had bugs after encountering a couple of them. My paladin's "Lay on Hands" only works on himself and of course the looting bug (which is what tripped my memory about ToEE having bugs) I will eventuall get the patches. Other than the offficial patch 2, what others would I need? I am running XP (with SP2) on a Dell 2.4 Ghz PC.

I do like the game, but as the manual is strictly .pdf it is hard to read and I am struggle with trying to get my characters to do what should be (or used to be before AD&D ver 3.5) normal D&D functions. For example I want my rogue to "hide in shadows" and go scouting but that option doesn't appear in the "radial menu". I have BG 2 and IWD 1 & 2 and those player interfaces seem much more user friendly to me. I probably just still need to get used to ToEE's style.

It really is not a bad a game overall. It is VERY true to the original module, which I brought years ago and had a chance to DM. This was one reason I was so interested in this game. I loved the Greyhawk Campaign and this story in particular.

Thanks for any help.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:01 pm

[QUOTE=Philos]Other than the offficial patch 2, what others would I need? I am running XP (with SP2) on a Dell 2.4 Ghz PC.

I do like the game, but as the manual is strictly .pdf it is hard to read and I am struggle with trying to get my characters to do what should be (or used to be before AD&D ver 3.5) normal D&D functions. For example I want my rogue to "hide in shadows" and go scouting but that option doesn't appear in the "radial menu".

It is VERY true to the original module, which I brought years ago and had a chance to DM. This was one reason I was so interested in this game. I loved the Greyhawk Campaign and this story in particular. [/QUOTE]
I run it with patch 2 and temple.zip, which you can find here:

http://www.jadri.com/temple.zip
or
http://www.co8.org/files/patch/temple.zip

To install this, replace your file "temple.dll" in the main game directory with the file of the same name from the zip, then transfer the folders in the zip's "data" folder to that folder in the game's directory. Then you're done. Looting problems and several other issues should be fixed, you'll be able to go to level 20, though don't have to, and some spells are fixed as well. It's very true to the original intentions of the designers, which is why I like it. Avoid patch 3, as this fix does everything that does and more, plus 3 will cause problems with every fan patch out there from now until the end of time.

Your game didn't come with a printed manual? Funky. If you find it easier, try this site for the 3.5 rules:

http://d20srd.org/index.htm

Temple is very true to 3.5, so this should be a good guide to any questions you have. It's much easier to navigate than a pdf. BTW, there's a "sneak" option in the radial menu that'll have your enemies doing spot checks to see you, which is similar to hiding in shadows.

Yes, Troika was good to Gygax. Atari messed 'em, though, and they went under because of it. Too bad. This game is great, and the engine is fantastic. If the developers had had time to finish it, our minds would have been thoroughly blown. As it is, once patched, this is still one of the best D&D (or any, IMO) games of all time. It gets better as you progress. Enjoy!

And, as ever, keep any questions coming!

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:39 am

Picked It Up

Thanks for the advice about patches. A couple of more questions: What is the co8 "patch" and what does it do/the value of it exactly? Can I install the patches and still continue my existing game or am I going to have to start over?

Yep, it is now sold as just a 2 cd set in one of the typical bargain bin small packages. No written material (other than the sleeve in the cd case) of ANY kind. I am going to have to print the manual out because there are evidently a lot of useful hot key features etc. that are not obvious. It wasn't so much the 3.5 rules I was struggling with as the interface and commands. The "help" function isn't organized (IMHO) in the best manner for someone just starting out. In fairness, I do like the "click on a key word" feature to it. But MANY important game functions were not addressed in a direct manner. I had to poke and play around to find out about some key game features.
Also a page about what differences 3.5 has brought about (like the hide in shadows function now being incorporates into "sneak") would have been nice. I could find hide (as a skill) in the help menu but nothing about hide in shadows. So, unless you already knew 3.5 rolled hide in shadows into sneak, you were hosed. I imagine the manual addresses all this stuff.
I had noticed (and tried) the "sneak" function but the pc basically crawled across the screen so slowly that I seriouly question the value of it for doing any meaningful scouting . Better to just have your mage cast an invisibility spell on them and let them move normally. This is a VERY disappointing departure from the old D&D skills and experience with other D&D game engines.

Still those criticisms aside overall I am pleased and it was DEFINITELY a good buy for $10.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:53 am

Take a look at this link:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040801x

You're right about sneaking, though. It's most annoying, and I rarely use it (though - minor spoiler - at 1st level I do like to creep up and snag the elven chain from the hill giant in Emridy meadows - end spoiler.)

As for co8, I can't give a too-detailed response about it, as I don't use it. I know it changes some of the dialog, and adds a quest that lets you buy masterwork items from the blacksmith in Hommlett, which makes crafting uber weapons much easier (and it's already quite easy to get super powerful). I believe it also adds some things to his list like katanas and shurikens and stuff for some people who wanted to make ninjas and other such folly. At least one good thing I think it did was fix starting equipment, so that if you took weapon focus in something you would start with a weapon of that sort, etc.

For a list of fixes made by 3.0.4, check out this (slightly outdated) link:

http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1107

I don't THINK that the 3.0.4 that's available now is much different from what's described here, but it could be.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:29 am

I did the same thing at Emridy Meadows (was 2nd level though as I had done enough Hommlett quests to make it). Pretty good haul, the elven chain AND SHIELD were great for my elf as I had planned to make him into a fighter/ mage. The elven shield having a 0% spell failure rate was perfect for that. Even with the chain on he only has a 15% chance of spell failure and is AC 22 without any magical enhancements (like Cat's Grace, P from E, etc).

Do you know about my second follow up question, If I install the patches can I keep going with the present game or will I have to start over?

I will probably try the game without co8 at LEAST once than maybe see what effect it has.

NEW QUESTION: When I tried to use the identify spell I was docked 100 gp. I thought that I only had to pay IF I had someone like Conlon the smithy identify an item. Is this another bug and if so do the patches you mentioned fix it?

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:51 am

[QUOTE=Philos]I did the same thing at Emridy Meadows (was 2nd level though as I had done enough Hommlett quests to make it). Pretty good haul, the elven chain AND SHIELD were great for my elf as I had planned to make him into a fighter/ mage. The elven shield having a 0% spell failure rate was perfect for that. Even with the chain on he only has a 15% chance of spell failure and is AC 22 without any magical enhancements (like Cat's Grace, P from E, etc).

Do you know about my second follow up question, If I install the patches can I keep going with the present game or will I have to start over?

I will probably try the game without co8 at LEAST once than maybe see what effect it has.

NEW QUESTION: When I tried to use the identify spell I was docked 100 gp. I thought that I only had to pay IF I had someone like Conlon the smithy identify an item. Is this another bug and if so do the patches you mentioned fix it?[/QUOTE]
The shield is good for wizards, because as you say there's no spell failure chance and even if not proficient, which just doubles the armor check penalty, there's no penalty to double, so he'll be fine. Instead of the elven chain, you may want to consider the spell mage armor (you can create a wand, so you don't have to use a slot every time). It gives you +4 armor bonus and lasts a REALLY long time. With that, a high dex, and the shield, you can get a 20 AC with no spell failure chance at all. Might want to try it. (The +4 should stack with the shield, but not with, say, bracers of armor.)

I was playing with patch 2, had the looting bug and installed temple.zip and continued that game all the way through to the end without problem, if that answers your patch question. Installing patch 2 after starting MAY cause problems. I'm pretty sure co8 will require a restart too, so as you say you'll probably want to finish your game before trying that.

The reason identify is costing you 100gp is the spell has an expensive material component. Either you or the merchant must supply this, so he'll charge you for the service. There are a couple of things to help here:
1. With temple.zip, you can use the spell Read Magic to identify potions as well as scrolls.
2. You can create a wand of identify for around 330gp and 30xp and get (I think) 20 charges. Use 19 of them, then sell it to Calmert or Burne for around 650gp. (Because of the component, this wand is SUPPOSED to cost more to make, according to the 3.5 rules, but in ToEE, it doesn't, so you can work around the cost.)

Hope that helps.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:33 pm

Identify

Great idea about the wand. This is one feature ToEE has that is DEFINITELY better than the Infinity Engine games (Like IWD) I have played. Being able to make scrolls, wands, and magic items is a big plus. Bummer about costing experience but makes sense AND will keep you from overdoing it (to some extent).

At what level (I still haven't had a chance to print the manual yet) can a PC craft a wand? In the meantime, if I create a scroll of Identify will it still cost the 100 gp? I have made 4 other 1st level scrolls (grease, mage armor, sleep) and they all cost only 12gp to make.

My elf has the mage armor spell and I do plan to use that later. Right now he is my utility spell caster. I have another pc that is my combat mage. As the utility mage he can do spells (before or after a fight) when it safe to take the armor off. Spells like identify, detect secret door, and such. This frees my combat mage to load up on the combat spells like magic missle, etc. So for example, my elf casts mage armor on my combat mage, can check for a secret door, and then put his armor back on and be a fighter when we move into the next area. This has worked pretty well for me in past games and I am just starting to do so in this one.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:08 pm

Not sure about the scroll, as I've never bothered with them. I guess try one and see what the listed cost is, and there you go. Compare it to other 1st level scrolls and see if it's more.

You must be caster level 5 to take craft wand. This works well for wizards, who get a bonus feat at level 5, and one of the feats they can pick is craft wand.

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe mage armor must be cast on yourself (the caster can't cast it on another), unlike, say, shield, which doesn't last very long. Anyway, good strategy with the utility mage, though I find that one mage is plenty for my purposes, especially with the ability to create wands.

I find casters aren't the best thing to multi-class in (with the possible exception of adding 1 fighter or barbarian or ranger level to a cleric for the weapon proficiencies). In fact, I usually only multiclass rogue 3/fighter everything else, because all I really sacrifice is a couple of feats, some HP, and just 1 plus to base attack in exchange for +2d6 sneak damage when I flank. That's a nice combo. Other than that, I stay pretty pure class-wise. But that's me.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:55 pm

Mage Armor

Well, I am pretty sure I remember my pc mage was able to cast mage armor on Spugnoir. She had mirror image to use on herself so I thought it best to do something for him. When I activated the spell mage armor on the radial menu (starting to get used to that thing) it had a rotating little blue circle and the wand appeared that you use to apply a spell to another player. I put the wand over Spugnoir and voila, he had mage armor. Now, it could be that since I haven't applied the patch, possibly this is a bug in the unpatched version.
But you are right about mage armor "normally" being a caster range spell. It sure is in the IWD and BG games.

Thanks for help with wands, I will employ that eventually. I will try an Identify scroll tonight and see what happens.

One of the great things about AD&D is the many ways and paths folks can try things. I too "usually" prefer straight classing but have a weakness for elven fighter mages. One of the best pen and paper characters I ever played was one. Other wise, I probably would have only done the fighter/thief thing just to get some thieving skills, straight thieves don't offer enough (for my tastes) to warrant having one as opposed to a fighter/thief.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 4:00 pm

The nice thing about the elven wizard is he gets longsword and longbow proficiencies automatically, just for being an elf (did you know this rule?). This reduces somewhat the value of adding fighter levels.

Hmm... the spell may be bugged. I'm very sure when I made a mage armor wand it'd activate on the caster the instant it was used, but the spell itself may have been different. I can't recall. So I can't say if temple.zip fixed this or not. If it hasn't, there's a very high probability Livonya's mod has fixed it. She did a lot of work fixing spells.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:28 am

Elven Wizard

Well, the scroll idea was a flop. Evidently, the game developer figured out that little possible loop hole. Identify is NOT in the spell list when you go to scribe a scroll. Oh well, have to wait to make a wand.

Concerning elven mage and weapons, no, that's news to me. Did that change with 3.5? I am also playing IWD with 3.0 and have an elven mage but don't recall seeing longsword and bow listed in his skills/abilities (of course I wasn't looking for it either). In regards to many of the less obvious or seldom needed rules of D&D my mind still falls back to the old 1st edition rules. In fact I still have those books in a box somewhere, believe it or not.

The weapons are a help, but I still have to say the extra hit points from having a fighter level or three is great for a low level mage's survivability. Awful lot of chances for a single hit to take one out. Again, for me it's more nostaglia than anything why I multiclass my elf. I really do prefer single classing.

Lord Plothos · Post by **Lord Plothos** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:20 pm

Did you ever check out that link to the hypertext SRD for 3.5 I posted? It won't take you too long to read up on the races and classes. There are also the feat and skill descriptions. Probably worth a glance.

Haven't played IWD, and only recently got back into D&D with 3.5 (having last played the old AD&D). Probably helps me more than hurts me in respect of not getting confused, but anyway, I think a lot has changed regarding classes, races, skills, and feats since 3.0.

There's also a link at wizards.com to a page outlining how the rules have changed from previous versions.

Philos · Post by **Philos** » Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:18 pm

AD&D 3.5

Started to but keep getting interrupted. I will shortly though. I have visited wizards before but had been thinking about 3.5 at the time, will have to go back there.

I have official patch 2 downloaded. I noticed that on Atari's site, patch 1 is 8+Mg and patch 2 (and includes 1) is only 5+ Mg. That is a head scratcher. Guess they had a LOT of unnecessary code in patch 1. They had patch 3, but remembered you advised against it. It blocks other fan mods I believe you said?

I still need to download temple.zip though.

New question if you don't mind. I really appreciate all the help. I have used search to find a couple of secret doors. But haven't found any traps as yet, how does that it reflected/display on screen? Again I am sure the manual will show this, but I have to print it at work and that is a lot of pages.

Thanks again