Please Help - Having Problems Deciding Party For Archer...

[ElvenKing]

I'm currently playing through SoA with ToB installed with a NG Elven Archer. The problem I'm having is trying to form the final party around my Archer since he is a middle ranks support type.
The two most balanced that I've come up with so far are:

1) Keldorn -> Sarevok (once ToB begins)
2) Minsc
3) PC Archer
4) Cernd
5) Aerie
6) Jan -> Imoen (at Spellhold)

OR

1) Minsc
2) Jaheira
3) PC Archer
4) Viconia or Anomen
5) Nalia -> Imoen (at Spellhold)
6) Jan -> Sarevok (once ToB begins)

I'd like the second party better if my Archer could romance Viconia but since he's an Elf no such luck...
Any suggestions or insights? Especially with regards to Cernd vs. Jaheira? I definitely want to take along a Druid but I'm not sure which one.

Thanks for listening,
ElvenKing

P.S: Please bear in mind that dropping Minsc is not an option! He's my big, dumb buddy...

[ 07-05-2001: Message edited by: ElvenKing ]

[ 07-05-2001: Message edited by: ElvenKing ]

[fable]

As I recall, the evil human kensai/mage I ran in one game had no problems romancing Viconia.

Jaheira vs Cernd: I mentioned in another post a comment about something called "Zuegzwang." It's a chess concept that involves taking one turn too many. You would have grabbed your opponent's queen, but he had you in checkmate one move too early: Zuegzwang.

Cernd is a classic case of this, as I see it. Jaheira is just finishing ripping the cajones from a fighter, when she notices two mages start casting. Time for serious business: she casts in turn Insect Plague, putting all her opponents temporarily out of action. Meanwhile, an enemy thief approaches. Quickly, she switches to a favorite weapon, and beats out his brains.

Cernd, in the same situation, is in his wolf form, tearing up the opposition, when he notices a pair of enemy mages casting. He has to change forms to cast Insect Plague: too bad, that's an extra turn lost. Then, after he finishes, he's approached by a thievely foe. Cernd switches back to his wolf form--a little late: it takes him an extra turn for the change to occur. He's severely hurt in the meantime.

Cernd is a classic victim of Zuegzwang, in my opinion. He can deliver the goods, but always just a bit too late. I think he's great if you want a real strategic challenge in a game, but if you want a druid who can do what's needed on the spot, Jaheira's your choice.

[Doltan]

Your first party seems more balanced as to having two tanks up front (Keldorn/Sarevok and Minsc), melee damage, and plenty of spell casting. The second party seems light on fighters because Jaheira can get a very nice AC, but doesn't dish out much melee damage. Therefore, you are left with only Minsc as a guaranteed melee performer. If you prefer this approach and want party #2 (it does offer more spell casting, which can be fun), I would make switch Minsc for Sarevok in TOB, because they serve pretty much the same role, and keep Jan.

Both parties will be fine as to completing the game. Just make sure to get them good equipment and the lack of melee damage in party #2 won't hurt you.

As for Cernd vs. Jaheira, I always take Jaheira, but that is for role-playing purposes. Once again, it's an issue of whether you have a position for more of a spell caster or a melee type. Your two possible parties do an excellent job of showing when you would prefer one over the other (Cernd fits in the first, Jaheira fits in the second).

[ElvenKing]

@ fable - Good points with regards to the Cernd vs. Jaheira question. The reason I had Cernd instead of Jaheira in the first party is to balance the fact that Aerie is not as much cleric as either Viconia or Anomen would be. I figured that Cernd's extra spells would help offset this problem.

@ Doltan - In the case of the second party my reasoning was to drop Jan in favour of Sarevok once I hit the Planar Stronghold. This would solve my lack of melee power up front. I definitely don't want to drop Minsc however; he's been in every party I've had since I first played BG1. I couldn't reward that kind of loyalty by ditching him... What about Anomen instead of Viconia however? He's not as interesting in terms of interactions, but he would be handy as a second tank until ToB.

ElvenKing

[Yshania]

Just to throw a spanner in the works. I went through the first time sticking with Anomen as my cleric. Unfortunatley I did not find him that good a fighter. I have never been tempted by Viconia - but did have Aerie for her cleric and mage spells.

This time through I am in Chapter six and the only cleric I have had was Aerie for five minutes - until I completed her quest then let her go.

Because of (IMO) the lack of decent clerics I have decided to do without, using druid heal spells and plenty of rest and potions!

My current party is:

PC - Druid Avenger
Jaheira (romance)
Korgan
Mazzy
Imoen
Keldorn

I intend to drop Keldorn - probably - for Edwin (I do not have enough mage abilities and a lot of tanks) When I get ToB, I will probably drop Mazzy for Sarevok to maintain neutral/evil balance...(funny because I did not set out intending an evil party!)

Just how important is a cleric?

[Doltan]

ElvenKing: Anomen instead of Viconia is a pretty good solution to the tank problem. Between him and Jaheira, you should have enough healing and you have two medium tanks and one good one (Minsc). Also, I'm a big fan of Keldorn and think he is a great tank. You could swap Viconia for Keldorn, and then make up the extra healing/cleric spells by swapping Jan or Nalia for Aerie. You don't need two Mage/Thieves, and Aerie maintains your Mage abilities and makes up for Viconia's cleric spells being lost. Oh my, I guess I just described your first party (except for Jaheira instead of Cernd). It seems to me that my wandering logic is leading me to conclude that your party#1 is a good one.

By the way, I think Fable makes a good point about Cernd/Jaheira, but in party #1 you would rarely use Cernd in his wolf form. You would use him mainly as a spell caster, and he's better at that than Jaheira. He's actually not a bad tank in his human form either, if you consider iron skin and other spells.

[TheDude]

here are 2 parties for u who i tink will work out:

1 good guys
minsc
anomen
Pc
nalia > Imoen
jan > Saravoc
Keldorn/Mazzy (both are nice depents on how u want to play: another great archer or a great fighter in the front)

2. bad guys
Minsc
Pc
viconia
Korgan > Saravoc
Jan > Imoen after spellhold
Edwin (i never had much problems with minsc and edwin together when Edwin turns in Edwina)

hope this will help
both parties have nice Mage and Cleric spells

[jatana]

I'm currently playing a half-elven male archer- my party is: Minsc,Viconia (I purchased the strength belt from Ribald for her),Jan, Nalia (will drop her for Yoshimo on way to Spellhold and trade him for Imoen), and Mazzy (trade for Sarevok). Viconia isn't hard to have in a good party just keep your rep below heroic. If you want a druid then go with Jaheria.

[Xyx]

Cernd is a classic victim of Zuegzwang, in my opinion. He can deliver the goods, but always just a bit too late.

Only in the case of spellcasting, I believe (never played Cernd). Shapechanging is fast, right? If so, Cernd should be able to attack the instant after he transforms, which is reasonably quick. Spellcasting (including the use of innate abilities) has to wait until 6 seconds are over (unless you have Improved Alacrity).

Aerie maintains your Mage abilities

Aerie is a pretty lousy Mage in SoA. No level 8 spells (and boy are they worth it). She gets a decent amount of Cleric spells, though.

[ElvenKing]

First off, I would like to thank all of you for responding with some really great advice. After much deliberation, I have finally arrived at the following party choice. The more time I spend thinking about this problem the more I realize that the Archer is by far the toughest character to fit into a well-balanced party, at least in my experience, since he cannot really function as a second tank and is restricted solely to missile support. This means one of the middle slots better served by perhaps a better thief or caster is lost.
By well-balanced I mean melee ability, clerical ability, spellcasting, thieving and the potential for romance. I also want to be able to use a wide variety of weapons with no overlap in proficiencies from character to character. Plus a good mix of alignments in order to have as much dialogue as possible - to me, this just serves to increase the roleplay factor.
The hardest part was deciding whether or not to take Keldorn. In the end I decided to leave him behind since I feel that once you retrieve Carsomyr he essentially becomes overpowered. My last full run through the game with a Jester I had him as my main tank and found by the end of the game that I wasn't really using the rest of the party. Basically Keldorn had become a one-man show, and battles that should have been tougher were simply a cakewalk.
So without further ado, and thanks in large part to some excellent advice, I've decided to go with the following party.

1) CG Minsc - main tank
2) TN Jaheira - second tank, romantic interest
3) NG Archer - missile attack, mage disruption
4) Viconia - main cleric
5) Nalia - main mage (would have taken Edwin but could never betray Minsc like that)
* after Spellhold, Imoen replaces Nalia
6) Jan - main thief, backup mage, great dialogue
* after Suldanessellar, Sarevok replaces Jan and become main tank

And there you have it. Hopefully this will be the group to keep me from falling off the wagon and ending up in Restarters Anonymous... again.

Cheers,
ElvenKing