Questions Regarding Character Abillities

TheAmazingOopah · Post by **TheAmazingOopah** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 12:34 am

I thought about creating a character that can go all the way through part one and two, and I had some questions regarding intelligence, wisdom and abillity tomes:

-Intelligence; Is it true that a higher intelligence gives you more game options? I know that it does make a difference in Icewind Dale, where it gives you more dialogue options, and can open therefore even ways to quests, that wouldn't be available with a lower intelligence score. If I'm correct, this didn't counted for Baldurs Gate (right?). But does this also count for Baldur's Gate II? How important is it? And what is the mininum score you have to have, in order to get the maximum out of the dialogue options? (16..? 17..?)

-Wisdom; Of course you need wisdom if you are a priest (just as you need intelligence if you are a spellcaster), but does it also affect the "story spells" you learn, when you've had a dream? This question also counts for the first part

-Abillity Tomes; When I've used say, the Tome of Influence to pump up your charisma in Baldur's Gate, does this extra point still lasts when I export my character to Baldur's Gate II?

dj_venom · Post by **dj_venom** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 1:06 am

Intelligence - No, I do not think that it acts like Icewind Dale. However, even if it did you would still be able to get other people to do it.

Wisdom - I'm not sure whether this even made a difference in the first one, however you don't gain anymore abilities and, you actually lose them.

Charisma - I have heard that certain tomes do not work, and there are issues with importing characters, however if it doesn't work, you can always edit it with Shadowkeeper. It's not cheating, it's only fair.

Good luck.

stramoski · Post by **stramoski** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 4:24 am

More info/answers

There are a few minor dialogue options options added with specific attribute requirements:
There's a certain beholder I can think of who responds well to charismatic people. I'm sure there are other examples, but I can't think of any.
Don't stress too much, though... After all, you can just kill the aformentioned beholder, and get the same loot as he gives you.

Importing from BG1 saves will retain any ability score adjustment by tomes. The tomes actually raise the attributes, they don't just bestow some effect that last forever, so it's a permentant change.
I've never had problems importing, except when trying to "sneak" in loot...

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 7:07 am

Higher Wisdom and Charisma could give you more options for certain dialogues, but it is not necessarily your main character who talk to the person/creature. So don't worry about that.

Having said that, Wisdom has effects on your saving throws, if I recall right, and certain creature in BG2 drains your Intelligence. So, if you give your main character too low ability, a couple of hit from them could actually kill you without giving you any physical damage.
Also, remember, you have to give up one of your ability point during BG2.

The special power given to you during dreams in BG1 (that's what you are talking about, right?) depends on your alignment, not on your ability scores.

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:36 am

There are some problems when you import a character from BG1 into BG2, at least in my experience. First of all, BG2 will apply the experience cap to your old character. If you character has over 89,000 experience points (161,000 if you're importing from Tales of the Sword Coast), BG2 will automatically try to adjust your character's level, hit points, etc. (you get to choose your own proficiency points, thieving skill points, kit, etc.), usually screwing up something in the process. I've even seen BG2 change the hit points of a BG1 character who only had 89,000 experience points, for some inadequately explored reason. So I usually don't bother trying to import a character. If I have to edit the character myself to make corrections, I might as well create the character from scratch.

Certain dialogues are affected by Intelligence Wisdom, just as other dialogues are affected by Charisma. Two examples that come to mind are the Bard Stronghold quest (affected by the Intelligence and Charisma of your main character), and the dialogue with the Spectator Beholder (Widsom 13 or higher gives you the same option as having a wiseguy like Edwin, Cernd, or Haer'Dalis in your party).

From a cursory glance at the scripts, an Evil character with 17 Wisdom, 17 Charisma, and 18 Dexterity (it lets you snap someone's neck if you're evil) (plus 19 Intelligence if you have the Bard Stronghold) will see most if not all of the dialogues in the game. We're talking about less than 50 stat-based dialogues. I don't know if stat-altering potions have any effect.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 8:26 pm

If you do not have ToB installed, a mage with INT less than 18 will have trouble learning 9th level spells. (Since you would need an XP cap remover to even cast them in SoA, anyway, this may not be a concern. But you can still learn them for the experience.) I believe this restriction goes away when you load ToB, but it's been awhile since I looked into that. Also, the number of spells you can have in your spell book is affected by INT.

The Beholder looks at WIS not CHA.

A high CHA will make items slightly cheaper in most stores in both BG and BG2. This combines with the effects of a high reputation.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Tue Jun 14, 2005 9:34 pm

[QUOTE=JackOfClubs]If you do not have ToB installed, a mage with INT less than 18 will have trouble learning 9th level spells. (Since you would need an XP cap remover to even cast them in SoA, anyway, this may not be a concern. But you can still learn them for the experience.) I believe this restriction goes away when you load ToB, but it's been awhile since I looked into that. Also, the number of spells you can have in your spell book is affected by INT.

The Beholder looks at WIS not CHA.

A high CHA will make items slightly cheaper in most stores in both BG and BG2. This combines with the effects of a high reputation.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the 18 INT for level 9 spells thing isn't true. It's in the manual, it's in the AD&D game, but it is not implemented in the Baldur's Gate series.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:36 am

[QUOTE=JackOfClubs]Also, the number of spells you can have in your spell book is affected by INT.

[/QUOTE]

But only in the moment when you want to learn a new spell, so you can use a potion of genius to go around that limitation.

Wisdom gives to a priest some bonus spells (between lev. 1-4), and to a mage/sorc. could be very interesting to have high value if you plan to use the spell Wish.

stramoski · Post by **stramoski** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:34 am

Well known wish workaround

The wisdom of the caster is irrelivant for the Wish spell. Just have anyone in the party speak to the summoned Djinni, and his/her wisdom will be checked.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:17 pm

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]Actually, the 18 INT for level 9 spells thing isn't true. It's in the manual, it's in the AD&D game, but it is not implemented in the Baldur's Gate series.[/QUOTE]
I've had this argument before on this board. If you do not have ToB installed it is impossible to get Nalia or Imoen (for instance) to learn level 9 spells because their INT is too low. See this old thread for more discussion on this point. (The relevant part starts on page 2.)

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:59 pm

Actually, on page 1 of that message thread, somebody named VonDondu wrote, "I just took a look at an unpatched version of BG2: Shadows of Amn, and what do you know? Mages who have less than INT 18 cannot scribe 9th Level spells. The 'Write Magic' option does not appear when you look at the scroll. So there definitely IS a difference when you install Throne of Bhaal... [But] even if a Mage has less than INT 18, he or she can still scribe 9th Level spells if you can find a way to temporarily increase his or her Intelligence..."

But I don't know, all of that sounds counter-intuitive to me. I wouldn't believe it unless I tested it myself.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:41 pm

Can either of those mages reach 18th level without ToB installed? If not, it really doesn't matter.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:42 am

You can't reach lev. 18 with a mage/sorc. in SoA unmodified (no exp. cap remover).

As for the wisdom for the spell wish, indeed somebody else (with high wisdom) from the caster can talk to the Genie, but to get the really good option you need a very high wisdom (18+), which only two NPC have naturally (Vicky and Cernd). So if you don't plan to have those two in your party, could be a good option to have your arcane PC to have a very high wis..

TheAmazingOopah · Post by **TheAmazingOopah** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 9:11 am

Hmm, the discussion has got a little bit of track. I'm still not very sure about the answer on my questions.
I understand that a high charisma is quite important for the team captain, as it also lowers store prices, that the wisdom doesn't have any affect on the spells gained from the dreams (which I believe to understand, you don't even have in BGII) and that both wisdom and intelligence can have an influence on dialogue options (though in that case, you could also call in your priest or mage to do the talking). But now in short: which abillity is the more important one for a team leader, who is a fighter, when you look at the dialogue options - Intelligence or Wisdom?

VonDondu · Post by **VonDondu** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:40 am

The only stat-check I saw for Intelligence in the dialogues pertained to an event in the Bard Stronghold "quests". I wouldn't expect a Fighter to acquire the Bard Stronghold (it can be done, I just don't expect it), so I don't think Intelligence matters when a Fighter talks to people. (It's an issue when you fight Mind Flayers, though, and you need at least Intelligence 9 to read protection scrolls.) On the other hand, there were dozens of stat-checks for Wisdom in the dialogues. So you probably ought to put more points in Wisdom. Wisdom 17 should do the trick.

By the way, if I'm reading the dialogues correctly, Wisdom 16 gives you the best options for the Wish spell in the unpatched version of Shadows of Amn; Wisdom 18 gives you the best options if you install Throne of Bhaal.

Galuf the Dwarf · Post by **Galuf the Dwarf** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:49 am

[QUOTE=VonDondu]There are some problems when you import a character from BG1 into BG2, at least in my experience. First of all, BG2 will apply the experience cap to your old character. If you character has over 89,000 experience points (161,000 if you're importing from Tales of the Sword Coast), BG2 will automatically try to adjust your character's level, hit points, etc. (you get to choose your own proficiency points, thieving skill points, kit, etc.), usually screwing up something in the process. I've even seen BG2 change the hit points of a BG1 character who only had 89,000 experience points, for some inadequately explored reason. So I usually don't bother trying to import a character. If I have to edit the character myself to make corrections, I might as well create the character from scratch.[/QUOTE]

Actually, I found a simple solution to this problem, oh she-sage. I just imported any character I take from a non-CHAR1 file, and their experience doesn't reset.

krunchyfrogg · Post by **krunchyfrogg** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:34 pm

[QUOTE=lompo]You can't reach lev. 18 with a mage/sorc. in SoA unmodified (no exp. cap remover).

As for the wisdom for the spell wish, indeed somebody else (with high wisdom) from the caster can talk to the Genie, but to get the really good option you need a very high wisdom (18+), which only two NPC have naturally (Vicky and Cernd). So if you don't plan to have those two in your party, could be a good option to have your arcane PC to have a very high wis..[/QUOTE]

You can just pop one of those Potions of Insight before casting Wish. Lord knows you get enough of them, and you don't really need them for any other reason.

JackOfClubs · Post by **JackOfClubs** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 5:49 pm

[QUOTE=VonDondu]Actually, on page 1 of that message thread, somebody named VonDondu wrote, ... [/QUOTE]
Heh. Sorry, love. That quote shows up as page 3 on my browser; we must have different settings. D'oh! And here I thought I was being all journalistic and stuff. (I was referring specifically to posts #6 through #14 for those still interested, although I now see that this issue wasn't the original question.)

With regard to that question, I think this approach might have problems
[QUOTE=TheAmazingOopah]...both wisdom and intelligence can have an influence on dialogue options (though in that case, you could also call in your priest or mage to do the talking).[/QUOTE]This is fine if you happen to know which dialogues require high wisdom before you start them but won't be too practical in most cases. A better approach would be to max WIS on the character you want to do all the talking and give them the various CHA enhancing items as well. That covers all your bases with a minumum of fuss. (I personally would pick Viconia for the task, since she already has high stats in INT and WIS, but your party choices may differ.) Also, there are some dialogue choices which require the PC to speak but I don't know if they are affected by stats. The Djinn in the Irenicus' dungeon would be a case in point.

lompo · Post by **lompo** » Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:38 am

[QUOTE=krunchyfrogg]You can just pop one of those Potions of Insight before casting Wish. Lord knows you get enough of them, and you don't really need them for any other reason.[/QUOTE]

Sure you can, but can be a little more unconvenient that using the potion of genius for learning spells. You need to cast wish in the middle of a battle (and often towards the end of the fight) so that means that you have to drink the potion before a battle you know you are going to use the spell (a in that case you can have the effect dispelled during the fight) or you can drink it right before casting (but you will loose a round to do that).

Anyway, back to the topic neither wis/int/char are very important for a PC fighter (unless you want to dual it obviously), but considering that ther eare items that can greatly increase char. and int. can be of help mainly against mindflayers, if I have some spare points I would drop them onto wis.: my suggestion for a fighter is 18/18/18/10/14+/10.