Goal player or role player

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 9:51 pm

There seems to be a quite obvious division amoung forum posters. So are you a goal player or a role player? It may be useful to identify yourself as such when you post. Some clarification: A role player would not fight the exp/magic item yeilding encounter if there was no sound reason to do so provided in the game. One example would be sacrificing to an evil god to get a certain girdle if you were good. A goal player would have no such concerns.

Goal/role is a black/white distinction and of course we are all shades of grey, but I often
see comments along the line of just go and...where the action specified would be totally out of character for the person asking advice. The most common example is Edwin/Mae'Var's kill the cowled wizard quest. Edwin is simply not available (as a party member-by being dead) to a role player playing a good character (esp. a Paladin) as they MUST refuse to murder on principle. - Curdis (rp with gp tendancies)

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:11 pm

That will depends on what I know is going to happen.
I play a NG character and I Know that the shadow thives are evil but since here its there home turf my neutral side have no problems in working for them, if I was asked to do something that I found out to be*Evil* I would refuse to do it.Example the familes in Trademeet I *know* that one have a Elven chain mail and I *Love* to get my hands on one, but since I have a way to do things *good* I do it. even if neas I dont get my hands on one.I cant do a *evil* thing for my greed alone.
About the cowled wizard, I have dont *Know* if he is a good or evil person so I kill him, besides I told him that I was going to kill him and he just jump on me, He did not tried to talk thing over. when I get the quest to kill the guy at the sea bounty I dont, I talk things over. even if he was a *evil* person I have no right to kill him if I can solve thing peaceful.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

[This message has been edited by Drakron Du´Dark (edited 01-09-2001).]

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:11 pm

I would be a goal person with a shade of grey.

Spuriously classified as a powergamer too.

New to all this talk about PnP.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:27 pm

Drakron Du´Dark,

Being neutral good you can delay the imperative (i.e) tentatively agree to kill someone JUST BECAUSE YOU WERE TOLD TO FOR PERSONAL GAIN (Murder/Assassination). But unless the cowled wizard is actually evil and you KNOW this he is just defending himself in his own home! However as Lawful Good you have no choice. You cannot even tentatively agree to murder. In PnP a paladin who agreed to do as Edwin asked would not be a paladin evermore after this. - Curdis (reformed gp and a PnP fallen paladin so I know of what I speak!)

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:30 pm

And I'll give you 1 guess as to what I am.

Fa???? Paladin.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

[This message has been edited by Weasel (edited 01-09-2001).]

Caernarvon · Post by **Caernarvon** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:31 pm

Originally posted by Curdis:
The most common example is Edwin/Mae'Var's kill the cowled wizard quest. Edwin is simply not available (as a party member-by being dead) to a role player playing a good character (esp. a Paladin) as they MUST refuse to murder on principle. - Curdis (rp with gp tendancies)

Remember the paladin in one of the taverns in Bauldur's Gate (the actual city) who would attack (with the goal clearly being to murder) any party with an evil-aligned party member? Or how about the fact that Keldorn doesn't mind killing the cowled wizard because "to call a cowled wizard an innocent would be very naive." Or how about when the Noble order of the Radiant heart sends you on a mission to betray and murder the fallen paladins? Or when Jaheira scolds Keldorn for blidly destroying anything evil when they might've reformed instead (IMO she's totally right... but she has the same alignment as Saemon Havarian?). "Good" and "evil" are never that obvious. One of my games I cast "know alignment" all over the place and I was very surprised by the distribution.

Also, if a good character can never side with evil--even when the goal is to destroy that evil--then you won't get out of chapter 2. After all, nothing can justify allying yourself with the Shadow theives or a bunch of vampires, right?

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:47 pm

Originally posted by Caernarvon:
[B
Also, if a good character can never side with evil--even when the goal is to destroy that evil--then you won't get out of chapter 2. After all, nothing can justify allying yourself with the Shadow theives or a bunch of vampires, right?[/b]

Now this I have heard before.
The way it was explain to me was ,1. you can get past the 2nd chapter as a Paladin because you are not directly ask to kill no one.(You don't have to do Edwin's request)
2. You are new to town and you know the thiefs are bad(neutral) but you know vampires are bad(evil) so to help your friend you take the path of the thiefs guild with the understanding you will not kill for them.

Have I tried this ways?? No but I'm a FallenPaladin.

Something to think about.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:05 pm

Caernarvon,

Very 'good' points! It would depend on the referee in PnP but the 'detect evil - then slay' option is not very workable (image playing a lvl 1 evil mage!). The Paladin in BGI is part of the game world so should point the 'moral compass' for BGII BUT to agree to kill someone purely for personal gain (Edwin/Ma'Var - you don't know if they are evil) is actually across the line. Keldorn may be right but the decision to go ahead is still questionable (esp. in light of the Paladin save the girl quest - Gameworld situation).

The radiant heart mission is to uphold the honour of the order so that the *true* Paladins may lead by example, I don't see a problem here.

The needing to side with the shadow theives or other definite evil is a deliberate dilema and caused me EXTREME angst playing as a paladin. If you don't do Renal Bloodscalp's quest then the shadow theives never ask you to do anything objectionable so they are the lesser of two evils (if evil at all). - Curdis

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:06 pm

To reply.
1st A paladin sometimes have to chose the lesser evil. yes the shadow thives are evil but the night knaves are worst because of the battles for being the *oficial* thift guild on Amn.
2nd the *good* and *evil* are just convient labels for roleplaying,there were created for the DM sake.so he could manage the game better (I always played a p&p game as green elf Ranger CG and I was NEVER asked my aligment.only I and the DM know. and I never asked my fellow members what was their algment as well).
Besides there is no way to finish Mae´var quest without killing the cowled wizard and for a paladin his word is his bound.(the lawful in Lawful Good) so if he agrees to do something he must do it.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
Friedrich Nietzsche

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:14 pm

Originally posted by Drakron Du´Dark:
To reply.
Besides there is no way to finish Mae´var quest without killing the cowled wizard

Yes but you can tell Edwin no , He will attack you ; you defend. Take the key open the chest and then you have the information to give to Renal B.

You only end up killing Edwin because he attacks you.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Caernarvon · Post by **Caernarvon** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:19 pm

What is PnP? I'm totally in the dark as to what you're talking about...could you clue me in?

Well, if your character is the curious type, I don't think its necessarily bad to agree to Renal's quest just to see what Maevar is like. Lying to him in and of itself can't be bad either, as the paladins ask you to lie to Anarg (who isn't nearly as evil as Maevar). However, I think it's pretty clear that siding with Edwin is not an option. It's too bad the game designers didn't take this scenario into account--I think they didn't really plan it well.

Another quest that really annoys me is the Harper quest. If you don't agree to rescue a thief/spy, there is no option of even continuing Jaheira's personal quest. The mage stronghold is the same way--if you keep your agreeement to help the mage, you don't get the mage stronghold at all. This happened to me twice... I didn't even know there was a mage stronghold until I saw this site.

I guess that makes me a RP, huh?

Caernarvon · Post by **Caernarvon** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:22 pm

Oh NM, I think I might've figured it out... is PnP "pen and paper" (as in pen and paper RPGs)?

Drakron Du´Dark · Post by **Drakron Du´Dark** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:27 pm

p&p is Paper and Pen, the REAL game using AD&D 2nd edition Rules.
By the way, yes you get the Key but you dont *Know* that he have the key right and Bloodscalp say to *Infiltrate* the guild, you dont *Know* if Mae´var is being honest toward the shadow thives in the first place. it could be all a plot to create confusion among the shadow thives.
In Trademeet you get a warning from the high mercant about what could happen so I dont take risks and do thing in the *good* way.
I do the Zxar quest because he hinted that he Knows irenicus and besides if any harm would come I can always tell the harpers of what happened so they could take action.
And there is a *bug* that if you dont take the mage outside he give you the sphere anyway even if you have a stronghold.

[This message has been edited by Drakron Du´Dark (edited 01-10-2001).]

Curdis · Post by **Curdis** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:31 pm

Caernarvon,

PnP = Pen and Paper AD&D 2nd Edition (What BGI&II are meant to model - and do a fine job of too despite flaws). The designers thought Mae'Var's through well enough if you refuse to murder the cowled wizard you have to fight your way out of the evil theives guild! Right at a price.

The radiant heart and the deception of Anarg is much more problematic but as they are the Paladin bosses and hence the final in game arbiters of lawful good. O.K. I guess..... The whole Harper thing is dodgey and best avoided if you are a Paladin - so you don't do as Xzar asks - simple. - Curdis

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:50 pm

Drakron your right you don't know .But after the fight (Which you don't start) is it wrong for a Paladin to search the body for clues. If I remember right the key is marked.

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Black Hand · Post by **Black Hand** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 2:59 am

The paladin's code of honour would prohibit working for thieves at all, if he had not very good reasons (like rescuing Imoen).

So a real paladin would refuse Renal Bloodscalps offer right from the start.

@Weasel: Yes it's true a Paladin would never loot corpses, so let the thieves in the party do it!

Caernarvon · Post by **Caernarvon** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 3:18 am

Curdis,

Did they think it out so well? I've gotten wierd results depending on how fast I kill Edwin when he attacks. If he dies quickly enough, he's the only one you fight, the key is there, simple enough. But in some cases he disappears, a bunch of theives appear from nowhere and attack, and there the quest gets in a nonrealistic state where the theives on the top floor fight but the rest of the guild has no inkling of what is going on, Maevar still insists that you go see Edwin who's now off in god only knows where...

Actually, what would be really cool is if they replaced the silly "reputation" system with a system like the alignment test for your character that I found somewhere online (though I don't remember the URL). Basically, it asks how your character reacts to a bunch of hypothetical situations and from that determines your alignment. Bauldur's Gate 2 already has the questions, they just need a weighting system for the different responses.

Black Hand · Post by **Black Hand** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 3:33 am

Yes, the reputation system is really stupid. There are dozens of murderers running around in Anm an nobody has a clue.

But if your party kills one stupid peasant the WHOLE WORLD knows of it immediately!!

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 8:36 am

But could there be a game made to think of every possible twist and turn and still give you somewhat freedom to move around?

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'Weasel the Most Holy of the Holy Cavaliers'.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed Jan 10, 2001 9:25 am

Well I actually don't know - mayby a little of each.

I usally play CG or CN so I do what I want, to futher the cause of good, like killing a good person, because by getting his armor or sword I can do more good

For instance in BG1 - I didn't killed Drizzt(sp?) but I stole one of his swords because _I_ can do good.