4th of July Plans

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:56 am

[QUOTE=C Elegans]Now I had time to look more into this. It's of course difficult to find international polls where exactly the same formulation have been used, but I think

79% of Americans think it is good that American custums and ideas are spread around the world

62% of Americans think the world would be a better place if other countries became more like the US

49% of Americans think the world would be a better place if people from other countries were more like Americans

can be compared to data from the ESS (European social survey) where only a little more than 10% of the population is 12 European countries in Northen, Central and Easter Europe agrees to the statement "It's better if everyone share the same custums".[/QUOTE]

I wonder if this survey was ever administered to the Indian subcontinent? -Because I think there would be a result not unlike the US. In a heterogeneous society, there is a strong impetus to conform, and the US has been one of these societies since approximately the 1840s. (That was the start of the great immigration movements, the first being Irish.) While a homogeneous culture can rely upon overwhelming numbers and social cohesion to absorb very small sub-cultures, heterogeneous cultures develop differently. The ideal is to fit in, to absorb social norms and therefore social benefits.

It wouldn't surprise me if EU countries, a generation down the line after strong immigration (and by that, I mean something approaching one-time US norms, far in excess of what individual European nations are currently experiencing), began showing a desire for foreign nations to mirror their own internal values.

Magrus · Post by **Magrus** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:02 am

*nods* It's a bit ludicrous for you to peg the U.S. on the customs thing. I'm fairly sure any nation that is "well off" and comfortable in living situation would have a bit of pride in that and that alone. I mean, how many people in certain countries in Europe wish there were elements of their culture found in the US or parts of Asia?

Cuchulain82 · Post by **Cuchulain82** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:07 am

@CE

I was being a little lazy- I saw the study and opened it, but didn't have the requisite gumption to read through it. I thought maybe you would answer me question quickly, and you did, so thanks!

Personally I am skeptical for three reasons:

(1)I don't trust surveys about amorphous rhetorical topics like "Patriotism" or "American Values". I think those topics mean something different to every person. Couple this with the fact that you are asking Americans about American values, so I would say that they would tend to think of the good things about American customs... and say "of course our customs are good and should be spread."

(2)I am also skeptical of the University of Chicago specifically. Starting in the 1950's they developed one of the strongest reputations of any school in the US and had a very definate ideology. This was specifically true in the Arts. I know that Chicago philosophers (starting with Leo Strauss and going down through people like Alan Bloom) were polarizing figures, demolishing any support for continental philosphy and sticking to a very strict analytical approach. In Economics, much of the successes of the 1960's in Central and South America were orchestrated by Chicago economists. This sounds great, except that the successes in the '60s were followed by even greater failures in the '70s. In fact, many nations have yet to recover from that period.

Recently, Chicago has fallen on hard times and isn't the premier institution that it once was. In fields like Philosphy and Econ, Chicago was regularly on par with Harvard and Yale, but that is no longer the case. My point is that Chicago as an institution has the reputation of persuing particular points of view. I don't know if that was still the case, but it was for many years.

As an aside, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz are generally considered "Straussians"- and that is not a compliment in most circles (although Leo Strauss is possibly the greatest commentator on philosophy that has ever lived).

(3) I'm generally a skeptical person.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:13 am

[QUOTE=fable]I wonder if this survey was ever administered to the Indian subcontinent? [/QUOTE]

I don't know about this particular survey, but I read an article a while ago (don't remember where so I can't check the reliability right now) comparing nationalistic values in India, Europe and the US, and the figures for national pride were higher in India than in Europe as well. The article pointed out different aspects of national pride, and presented the view that US nationalism was based on political and cultural values, whereas Indian nationalism was based on historical events like the indepence etc. If this is true, it's an interesting difference.

What will happen in Europe I cannot predict at all. Nationalism has gone up and down in Europe, whereas in the US nationalism is consistently high and is more intergrated in everyday life.
Europe was densly populated long before the US, and the geographical setting is very different, so immigration waves have not followed the same patterns. Right now the US and Europe are further away from each other in terms of values than ever after WWII, so it's difficult to make prediction for Europe based on what has happened in the US.

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:58 am

Cuchulain82 wrote:(1)I don't trust surveys about amorphous rhetorical topics like "Patriotism" or "American Values". I think those topics mean something different to every person. Couple this with the fact that you are asking Americans about American values, so I would say that they would tend to think of the good things about American customs... and say "of course our customs are good and should be spread."

Surveys are a source of low quality data compared to many other forms of data, but they are useful for one thing: comparisons. Due to the large sample sizes, the measurement gets statistical characteristics that makes it suitable for comparisons. So even if the absolute numbers are unsure, you can safely assume that comparisons beteen 2 groups or comparisons between one point in time an another, are reliable providing the survey was correctly administered.

So for instance, there should be no doubt that in general, Americans are more nationalistic than Europeans since over the years, many surveys have measured different aspects of nationalism and came to the same conclusion.

(2)I am also skeptical of the University of Chicago specifically.

Oh, the Chicago school of economy is infamous all over the world for it's experiments on South American countries. But, is this reason to question survey results that are in agreement with surveys conducted by other administrators? I mean, even if they have some political agenda with conducting the survey, and at a later point will interpret these data as mening something that goes in line with their agenda, data are data and the results are consistent with other surveys.