Default Party Project - Hands of Fury

[myrophine]

I have decided to bide my gaming time by taking the default party, Hands of Fury, through the game and maybe even into HoF.

Since this is a broad project (ie not just interested in one thing) and the post might be long I'll provide a table of contents now so you don't have to read whats not of interest.

Its a long post but might be of interest although you might be too advanced a gamer? Or you might be getting thrashed by orcs and not know what I am talking about I suppose...? Anyways I think the most interesting thing is the default party concept and the actual "working out" of how to make them rock/fun.

Thank you if you read any portion!! and sorry if the lenght causes problems...I haven't posted before and don't know if this is ok...so just scrap it moderators if it is bad. I have the text saved and can post in segments if necessary (like silverdragon did)

I. Why the default parties? What am I exploring with them?

II. What is my playing experience? (So that you will know this to give you some basis in replying to me). READ THIS: I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THROUGH AND DON'T WANT ANY SURPRISES SPOILED!!!

III. How should I build these characters? (with normal as the main goal...but hopefully open them up so they are not..."innocent by-standers" in HoF but are rather death machines (at least to some extent)

IV. My experience in tactics (see above II to see why my tactics are total rubbish and educate me further).

I. Ok so an important question...why not make my own? I think its really cool to make your own so don't get me wrong... The only thing is I find it an interesting challenge to take a default party with these features: 1) they have weaknesses 2) they have biographies and personality (somewhat) and 3) I have to adapt to them and find out how to play unfamiliar character types.

1) Why is it good that they have weaknesses? Do I enjoy reloads? Ha! Well this makes a challenge and it relates to 2...they have distinct identies. Don't get me wrong I am trying to make Hands of Fury (HandsOF) as strong as I can, but I don't want to/can't possibly make them ultimate (I'll try that out with UPP, JUPP, and silverdragons ideas some time later)

2) I can feel this party: Lead by a brutal priest of Talos, Makados with his right hand man the brutal barbarian Daheel-"bloody four" (he brutalized 4 drunks to death in a bar fight whom he had beaten to the point where they were begging for mercy. Harbesh Carver a calous thief who is mostly a thug without the coordination of most thieves (10 to start ughh). His elven friend (whom he loves to bicker with) Amraith an elven noble gone bad. Warrior archer and student in thievery of Harbesh (at least what I decided to do). Finally, the brilliant Mirtai (or something or other) who is the budding arch-mage of the group. She is in search of adventure and preferred the roving dangerousness of this group to the Hostower (sic?)...(she is Chaotic Neutral). Last but not least is the Shadow Druid (according to me) named... omg I forgot!!!...so they aren't as interesting as BG2 characters.

Still I can believe this party a lot better than I can believe in the crazy parties that I come up with on my own (ie what an odd coincidence that an aasimer, a tiefling, a deep gnome, a drow and some other crazies meet in a bar). Maybe I just have a poor imagination but I like the history of the party and tendencies to be given to me.

3) I would not normally choose the race/stat/classes of each party member let alone the composition as a whole. I have my own (misfounded I am seeing after reading silverdragon, UPP, JUPP etc) ideas about what is good.

So a closing comment that pretty much sums up all I've said is that I want a party that has a background and believable members with weaknesses (and actually they also have strenghts too!) take this band of misfits and thrash the living daylights out of things.

II. Ok the first time I played this game I thought it was impossible...then I figured out the basics of the system...how to cast spells (and when) PAUSE PAUSE PAUSE etc. Then I took a break. Got awsome at BG2 and when I came back I had loads of new ideas to try. I've taken probably a hundred parties to the orc lands but only about 10 of them made it to the underdark and only 3 of them through and only one (actually the Hands of Fury a long time ago when I had not read any internet material explaining builds) defeated the guardian... For some reason I didn't play them further and they got erased when my computer broke. So I'm not clueless but I am still trying to implement what I have read...get it to actually work.

to be continued...part III and IV.

[myrophine]

III. What does the HandsOF start out as and how should I build them. This will have to wait to a certain extent as I kind find a character viewer I'll just talk in some generalities about what I remember and might report a stat in error if I stretch myself beyond what I know.

Makados - priest of Talos; Human; chaotic evil (leader in name but doesn't have the intelligence to pull of the role of diplomat...unless you wish to hose concentration).

Starts off with str 14 dex 12 con 10 int 10 wis 14 cha 16. Comments: He is described as having a formidible melee presence in the party description...so that gives you an idea that my party is not the UPP JUPP etc. This is what we are dealing with. Well at least he can get str/dex combat feats (if a point is put in dex). Also the wisdom is lowish for THE ONLY CLERIC ON THE TEAM. That charisma is wasted as undead go down to disruption quite easily and don't appear that often anyways. Plus for HoF I have read that turning is impossible even with deep gnome maxed wis cl29m1. Starts with the feat toughness...does this make me a "role-player" or should the designers be shot for not making it 1 hp per 2 lvls or something?

Notes: So far I have built him straight up as a cleric lvl 6 to get access to summoned undead. I shifted him away from the diplomatic feats he starts with to concentration and maybe 2 points in spell craft. Some day I'll list the feats I took and everyone can gut me for my bad judgement. I have a problem using up Cl spells other than hold person/other disablers. I just forget because I don't know the class well since usually I play good clerics who play healer with shift+cast.

Options: (best for normal) - just level as a straight cleric untill you got what you need of cleric (how high should I go? - I don't know...only ever had a Cl11F4). Mix-ins during normal..hmmmm. I have 2 other frontline fighters (not that they are awsome) but I could take 4 fighter levels? Or Barbarian Levels? I already have a druid and the wisdom 14 (+1 added at level 4 so far) is nothing to write home about so I don't think I'll make him a cl15 d(12+n) other(3-n)... I could give him bard or sorc levels. Should I be concerned that he won't be wearing armor?

HOF: I never played this. Cleric 25 with mixins was reported as an options. I think I'll need somebody to cast the heal/mass heal spell or I'd consider making him into a sorceror. I am just in the preliminary stages of learning (yet I am already lvl 6 so I am making decisions that affect him...). Maybe 5+ lvls of bard?

I don't know how stats affect the existent HOF builds (eg. I could never make this an ac tank bc Chaotic evil (no monk) and low dex)

Daheel-Bloody four

I like this guy... Barb with 18 con! Also decent str/dex 16/16. Who cares what his intelligence and Ch are...wisdom 10. Chaotic evil so forget about making him any type of caster (otherwise could go banite)

wields axes too.

Options: well I think I'm going for BarbX with maybe some minor mixins. The old Barbx/f4? maybe rogue 3 if not needing extra DR? ranger 1 to polish off at level 30 if that doesn't hurt DR.

HOF: well I guess barb isn't THE most effective class but then again I have a band of misfits NOT ultimates. This guy is the one who's stats most match his role/class. Can't really think of how to make him good in HOF...just hack things with the axe. Too dumb and ugly to EVER WoB etc.

Notes: Yes this guy is kicking butt. He dishes out damage but more importantly is always left standing with high HP and low AC. Tanked the entire room against Bugbear leader when Makados was beaten up, Harbesh charmed, Amraith half dead plus needed for archery, mages spells exhausted, and druid 2nd mvp wailing on the leader with ice daggers and icelances.

Intimidator/makes woods not a royal pain
Harbesh Carver:

Dwarf; Rogue (starts as); true neutral

stats: str 16! con18! dex10 (ughh ughh triple ughh!) Int 14 Wis? Ch not high . starts with a star (oops I mean a feat) in small blades...yet another piece of flavor rather than power building or whatever (dex 10 remember).

I thought this guy really stunk as a thief. Why have a thief if this is it? So what I did was have him handle searching and traps (only). I gave him 4 figher levels and strapped on heavy armor. I also gave him expertise so he wouldn't get pounded on so much.

It worked! He does ok with traps plus he has most kills and xp in party (even though a lot were barrels haha). I think its because I micro manage the expertise, take advantage of the backstab, gave WS small blades, and I use him as clean up hitter (that means he sits with expertise jacked up until someone is damaged a lot...then he turns it off and kills them with his quick weapon...a shortsword +1 seeking.

build in normal: OK load up fighter levels untill all the feats you want then take 3 rogue levels and top off trap mastery.

HOF: more options than daheel as he can get a little bit of magery. The problem is that he has to take rogue levels along with mage levels to avoid the dreaded xp penalty. Solution? planning/squatting/sucking it up and taking the penalty. Still I would like to build his str base to 18 so when "un-enhanced" he still does decent 2 hand damage. And his dex to 13 to get dex feats (maybe?). So some trade-offs exist. I can do the str/dex (already committed 1 pt to str oh well doesn't need much int to master traps). so I haven't decided but I think I'll have at least 8 levels in mage for greater malison. I don't think I should/need to get WoB cause even if I pump 6 points in str plus find int enhancing item (which should go to archmage of party) won't have much more than 20 int...still he could cast exec. eyes so maybe mage 17+ rogue3 fighter10 and would involve some level squatting. I'd probably make him a conjurer or illusionist and the elf a transmuter (for quest).

Whew.... if your still reading I give you massive thanks and accolades!

[myrophine]

III. continued

Amraith:

Moon Elf; Fighter (starts); Evil (can't remember exactly what).
stats: str10dex20con10 (can you say "ranged combat"?) int14wis14ch-8

starts with dual wield/ambidex. I ignored this and grabbed ranged feats first. Once R3 was achieved I gobbled up weapon finesse to dish out an occasional backstab.

Don't have a problem with the low strength but I really hate the split in int/wis. I would prefer one or the other (int best) to be 18. Oh well.

So far he is F2R3 as I felt the need to get some scouting/pickpocketing/open locks action going. Later invis/potions of MT with internet "intelligence" about targets/knock or bash is going to be used...example cave bear with champions strength can "pick" many a lock .

normal building: there are two paths as I see it but both involve getting the guy to F4/R3 (for WS bow) first. I don't consider the cleric route since cleric is a poor mixin and I don't have favored class cleric with a moon elf. The first path is to take raise the F AND R levels (to avoid xp hit) untill 3 attacks then get mage levels going for HoF prep. OR just start up with mage levels and by the time you get mage 12 you've got 3 attacks (plus rapid shot) AND you can tensors transform/blink/mi/stoneskin/supportbuff etc I like #2 don't you?

HOF build: I'm pumping at least 6 points into intelligence but I still think mage 20 is the limit I'll take this guy since he doesn't need more DC (already its crud and he should avoid DC spells without a greater malison/greater spell focus combo). So what to do with the other 4 levels? well I'm sure that I have more to worry about with this party than that!

Notes: I like this guy even though no 18 in intelligence. at least the dex is 20 as he starts out an archer. He has a lot of kills but not the most. Maybe its just my playing error but I find that a lot of times he gets targeted even when not scouting ahead. He is invaluable in the roll of disrupter of spells...with his rapid shot feet he usually has an arrow knocked when the enemy is begins casting and with the low caster AC/bowspec/dex/fighterlvl combo he usually hits. Now what I've JUST learned: as the enemy has had great success in casting MI then buying time to charm hold snillocs my crew is that I NEED to sacrifice chromatic orbs of the mage in order to have MM to eat up MI. OR save aoe disablers like stinking cloud, spike stones (or would that just eat an image/rnd?), horror. I was mighty upset when a fireball just ate up an image...doesn't make sense to me at least.

Arch-mage: starts with an M I think

Half-elven; Mage; Chaotic Neutral

stats str10con14dex14int18!!!!!!!!wis10ch10

I like this girl with her high intelligence. She starts with rapid shot so I've been using sling with her instead of my usual mage with x-bow.

I gave Harbesh the X-bows since #1 he's a dwarf and looks good with it #2 doesn't need to sit and shoot for an entire round. 1 shot then charge with shortsword and shield is the order of day.

Makados wields darts (I don't like to sell ammo hehe) or casts bombadiers/disables/buffs (b/c I often forget to plan ahead) when out of dart range.

Build (normal): grab level of spell as soon as available. When scrolls for next level are NOT available...Squat or add figher lvl (hp/feet/sling WS) depending on whether need the hp to survive.

HOF: obviously at least 20 wizard levels and pump intelligence. She is the wailer and if I turn someone into a bard then I will have bob marley too be a singer too j/k. Otherwise take fighter levels for extra feets sling WS and better HP/AB. At least four levels. probably some rogue for evasion + morkenkainens b-stabbing sword . Maybe something else but not this parties biggest worry at least at level 6.

notes: so far she's doing good both with the sling rapid shot and with her sleep orbs horrors webs stinking clouds. Now she has finally got fireball so I will enjoy it before it too becomes outmoded. I discovered nasty slime zombies were vuln. to fire and she ate them up. Ice trolls too but since I learned that her sling does like +10! dmg each hit since its bludgeoning I just save the spell!

Shadow Druid (forgot the poor man's name (sigh).)

Human; Druid; Neutral Evil

stats 10 in all physical 16int16wis14Ch
feats: luck of heroes and missile

Notes: His sling is pretty weak although its hitting reliably at lvl 6. He has saved the bacon with web, entangle, spike stones, rain clouds, produce fire (a very cool mod spell...think small fireball that lasts 1 round for those that arrive to the cookout late). Also Ice daggers and Ice lance were instrumental in killing the bugbear leader as even the raging Daheel couldn't kill faster than healing potions (in the shortrun at least).

This guy has the most options of all the guys yet that makes him the hardest to decide with. I have taken him to druid 6 since I know that I want at least 12 levels for barkskin +5. Is this rational? I don't have an ac tank really so I don't know. Anyways I am exploring the druid spells and having fun. I have the spell mod installed which I highly recommend if you want to actually cast your spells and not be like (oh well might as well cast x spell...otherwise I'll have to shoot my pee shooter or risk a lot of pain as an animal fighter)...maybe I just never learned the basic spells? Anyhow more is better!
I don't have the shapes mod in since I am still in normal and don't want it too easy...

normal building: At least Druid 12 (maybe not straight there but I'll probably pick up lvl 4 spells so I can get the elemental feats as a druid uses plenty of elemental magic) fire and cold I think. Many options. Sorceror? but only 14 Ch so I don't like that. Bard? I like that but then I can't do the other option. If I have Makados do bard 5 I will probably not have my Druid do bard. Plus I know Silverdragon does Druid 21/Bard9 and since I intend to play that party sometime I desire something else. Mage? 16 intelligence so it is an option. But I will then have 1 archmage and 3 demi-mages plus a bard. Thats enough arcane magic and I'm short on clerical. I have read that the high level clerical magic leaves something to be desired and haven't heard bad things about the modded Druid 9th level (well only that theres no WoB). So How many Druid/Cleric lvls? I AM tempted to get 5 mage levels for defensive spells. Ok lets start with the minimums (I'm in WAY over my head at this point having never played past normal kuldahar). How about Druid 12+ (for barkskin if I even need it...along with some druid kill zone area damage spells druid things etc), Cleric of Bane (for 4 wisdom total) 9+ (for at least the heal spell alla cleric)...Mage 3 or 5 or 7. Is a tricaster just crazy talk? THIS IS THE CHARACTER I REALLY NEED HELP ON! I don't mind installing shifter mod in HOF because then its not overbalanced.

Ok, I think he should have a main casting class and then decide what to get out of the supplemental classes. I want damage spells from druid + already invested 6 lvls. I want quest wisdom from the banite also he is the party negotiator and can benifit from tyrants dictum. I want at least MI from the mage. Blink would be nice but I can probably get someone to cast Imp Invis on me when in melee. I could also get MI from bard level 5 and free makados to be an intriguing cleric/sorceror? But then again it doesn't make sense (to me to have tons of spells yet be often singing.

I also haven't been thinking of xp penalty....I want a high level character in normal mode (meaning one class outstanding) and already invested in druid. I also want the option of song/lingering song, no xp penalty, and the extra wisdom.

Druid 7 (I'm already at 6 and want the extra spells)
Bard1
Druid X (Whatever happens when I "unsquat" at ice temple
Cleric1 (right before banites)
Druid12 if not already there
squat untill this character dying etc.
unsquat outside underdark Druid Y
HOF? don't know that one yet

so that opens options for Makados: (decided to make sorceror ) he can end up with a natural 22 in charisma.

Cleric 9 (to pick up at least 1 heal spell)
squat
sorc4 for MI
squat untill out of underdark
sorcX
sorc21 (as 13/17 loses WoB etc) 11/19 is a possibility...I really don't know the cleric spells very well

IV. Ok skip this. I don't have any special tactics really. Read notes for some idea or build and play yourself. The only thing I will note is that this party will lack a full on cleric!!! If Daheel were Neutral Evil I might make him Barb/Banite 15/15 to cover some basis. A druid isn't a cleric and I'm wondering how much pain (ie if I should change the character) I will feel.
THIS IS A BIG QUESTION AND I WELCOME FEEDBACK.

Thank you so much if you have even read part of one section of this post!

[Ravager]

Uh, what was the question?

I would generally recommend taking fighters over barbarians due to greater feats choice (although barbarians should get more HP). Rangers + Paladins can also be useful for mix of spellcasting (healing) and combat. You should have at least 2 melee front-line fighters. Fighters may want reasonable DEX (Dexterity) and INT (Intelligence) for feats (Check the manual).

A cleric is a must, with high WIS(wisdom) to get access to the highest levels of spells (also applies to druids). STR (strength) and CON (constituion) dependent on where you want them (front-line or support). Druids have better wilderness lore support and access to shape-shifting which can be useful.

A rogue to pick locks and disable traps (Other skills are just a bonus to me ) High DEX required due to the limitations to leather armour armour (any better and I think you cannot use stealth). If you are going to be using sneak attack attacks, reasonable CON so he/she will survive .

Mages need high INT just as clerics high WIS (Sorcerors need high CHA-charisma).

Special races- Use a mix of normal and special races so you don't end up with a low-level party. Anyone with high INT may be a good choice for a special race due to the amount of skill points gained.

Skills- At least one person should have reasonable Diplomacy/Intimidate or Bluff for conversations ingame. Other skills should be applied to the classes they fit best.

I think that's all I can stand to write about this for now .
Sorry if I have covered some/most of the stuff you have written about.

[myrophine]

Thanks for your reply. I have thought about what you said about the various characters.

As far as what is the question?

Oh, the topic is how to make the default party, hands of fury, into the best or funnest it can be. so the choices are limited by initial stats, races, classes, etc...

I had fun with this. And it was a little overwhelming to choose everything from scratch.

myro

[Ravager]

I can't say I have tried the default party myself!

[QUOTE=myrophine] it was a little overwhelming to choose everything from scratch.

myro[/QUOTE]

I think that choosing your own party immerses you more in the experience .

I'll have a look at the party for you tomorrow. In the meantime I'll suggest what I can.

Your party's alignment should only matter in regard to the spells you can cast (although a good party may have spells that will have greater effect on evil monsters).

I would split your rogue into two classes alternating as you should be able to have enough points in the skills to do the necessary jobs. At least one mage or cleric should stay focused in that class to get you maximum spells though you may not get access to level 9 by the end of normal difficulty. Fighting classes may be good to multi-class.

As for stat increases every 4 levels, see my above post.

That's all I can think of for now.

[myrophine]

I played the party through to kuldahar (and got loaded up with magic items ) Then I got bored and took the Lady's Lament (another default party to Kuldahar also). With everything I have learned I made my own party although its a rip-off of silverdragons with some of my own ideas...

They are pretty good and I tried some of the things I read in the guides. I kept them fairly basic.

Makados CE human - straight cleric of Talos X
*His tremor and chain lightning sphere spells are very helpful along with his priest ones: undead, heal, recitation, etc

Daheel CE human - fighter1BarbX (to be fighter 4 when the level squatting "moons" align correctly...the great conjunction)
*The backbone of the group. Most kills (although I use him as a wreckless barbarian and he is the only one killed...twice)

Amraith NE moon elf - fighter4rogue3wizardX
*Great Archer and throws in a spell every so often. Low intelligence so his save spells never stick (but thats why I stopped using them).

Harbesh TN shield dwarf - fighter 8 rogue2 wizard3 (squatting)
*Another deadly tank and can cast MI and has evasion (but low dex)

Mirai Wainwright CN human - fighter 4 mage 11 (12?)
*Just leveled her up as a fighter to make her ranged attack rule and can't wait to cast tensers as last ditch when she is running low on spells. Not to mention that she can now wade into battle and hack someone up with her +4 2 handed sword ....Also I couldn't find level 7 scrolls (or 8 for that matter)

Fissera NE human - bard5 druidX

*Makes everyone better with tymora's melody, support spells, and occasional thorn spray etc

Anyhow I lost interest in making "broken" characters into a HOF team and decided to make my own guys.

I can't remember my stats but the 1, 2, and 3 characters are similar to silverdragons party (I like drow and aasimar ) only I have a rule against min/maxing so I had to juggle some things. Also I don't like the druid shifting mod for some reason (doesn't seem druidic to me...shapes aren't supposed to dominate combat...in pnp I have used druid shapes either to scout or escape in a hurry. BUT druids have other powers that never come into play in a crpg so I have no problem if anyone else wants to beef up their druid with some extra power...I take the spell mod for example.). So I don't want a 21 druid /bard 9 and I don't want a druid 12 / bard 18 for that matter.

So I seperated the bard and the druid and got rid of silverdragons tiefling rogue10/mage20. My utility men and arcane back up characters are: A) a drow bard5/necromancerX (normal) to bard 11/Necromancer 19 (HOF) and B) a deep gnome monk1/illusionist17 (normal) to monk1/illusionist17/druid7 (to get barkskin +4 and an xp penalty in HOF) then monk1/illusionist17/druid12.

So in normal I have 2 warriors a cleric a sorceress (forgot to mention - target sorc27Pal2Monk1) and 2 auxilliary specialist wizard.

HOF everyone will have MI and with Cera Sumat x2 everyone SR. I'll have 2 heavy hitting spellswords. A high priest who can also hit hard occasionally Cl25/M1/Pal1/Illusionist3. A kick butt sorceress. 2 auxilliary mages: one of whom can also sing every bard song. And the other who can also cast barkskin for the high ac members including himself (starts with dex and wis of 20)

good cheer,
Myro

[myrophine]

Some things in my post are not clear...

Makados Harbesh Fissera etc are the default party.

Whereas, I listed just the classes of the characters I made up and spared y'all the terrible names I come up with

Myro

[Ravager]

Right, I looked at the default Hands of Fury party today and recorded the details on my PDA (shameless I know )

Makados

Very low Constitution- wouldn't stand long in a fight- especially on the frontlines, where he apparently likes to be. Wisdom is a bit low too, although it could be improved every 4 levels. This character would probably be better as an aasimar (+2 chr and wis - for spells and turning undead)

Daheel

Good stats. Depending on style of play may be better as half-orc. Check the race benefits and decide on that. Barbarian is the half-orc favoured class so it may be better for multi-class

Amraith

Bah! Completely ridiculous. If he is going to specialise in 2 weapons, he needs to compensate for low AC with CON and well as DEX. No fighter is going to get any good bonuses from 10 str. His race is too frail to be a fighter- better to have a dwarf

Mirai

Good stats. for a wizard. Maybe better as a drow- if you're prepared to have less spell access due to level adjustment.

Harbesh

Reduce CON, increase DEX- better yet change race to something like Tiefling or Halfling

And last but not least ... Fissera

Int too high. Str, con and dex need to be higher to be more effective. Best advice- Scrap this character altogether.

I stick to my earlier advice to build from scratch, although you could use them as templates. At the least they could use modification.

Can't tell you much about level squatting as I haven't tried it myself, however, I don't think you should try as it probably wasn't considered by the designers and shouldn't be neccesary anyway.

Glad to be of help. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

[myrophine]

Ravager,

I had some of the same thoughts as you on the characters and can comment on my experience in playing them.

Makados Cleric X - He may "like to be on the front lines" but I never put him there. I used his Talos sphere spells to bombadier (some are even party friendly). He also did a whole lot of recitation, prayer, chant. He cast animate dead, bulls strength etc. He stayed in front of the mages and cast spells when needed or used a returning throwing weapon. When needed he acted the temporary body guard and has a divine shell a greater shield of lathander for this purpose.

Daheel - BarbX (to get F4 eventually) - He simply chops things up with a 2 handed weapon. A couple times he got mobbed and died but not before raging and taking most of the enemy along with him. He's the main killer of the group.

Harbesh - Rogue3Illusionist3Fighter8 (before Yuan-ti temple) - another tank and actually a better defensive tank (MI blur) with some offensive punch too (sneak attack). Does traps.

Amraith - Rogue3Fighter4WizardX - I used this guy as a sniper and fill in arcane buffer. Has Weapons expertise for body guard duty (along with MI). Can deliver backstabs for melee damage but not that useful. Mainly has the rogue levels to handle locks and scouting + evasion.

Mirai - MageXFighter4 - has fighter levels too. I liked her 18 intelligence and 14 con 14 dex to keep her effective and alive. If I could have found 7,8 level scrolls I would have kept her a pure mage.

Fissera - Actually not a bad character if you MC to a bard and go to level 5 (no reason for 11 as no ultimate ac characters). He contributed nicely with tymora's melody helping Daheel deal x3 criticals and amraith deal x3 rapid shot criticals. Also everyone has luck to saves along with a +3 bonus. Considering that this group is NOT min/maxed (ie not the best saves) and is NOT magic resistant the save bonus is worth it. The modded druid spells were somewhat useful with spirit of flame and scion of storms. Could bodyguard with MI then shapeshift (if hit too much dispelling MI then shift to wolf run shift to human recast MI shift to boar or polar bear)

Level Squatting - I do it in the Ice Temple to get 6k from the first several golems. Then I unsquat the casters (low hp) to greatly make the rest of the temple easier. I park the fighters at 6BAB to keep them with 2 attacks (3 dual wielding) and keep a close eye on them. Trolls and wolves are handled with kill zones and disabling spells. barbarians are handled with any will save spell (or even reflex).

I unsquat the fighters when they hit 12BAB or when they hit a rational caster mixin level (Wizard 5 for example). Also maybe grab improved crit but with tymora's melody and a keen weapon or a scimitar its just icing on the cake.

The most important thing to do is to keep your parties average character level slightly less than an integer. For example if you have 2 level 6 fighters then you can have 3 level 9 characters but the final character must be level 8. Then the average levels is (6 + 6 + 9 + 9 + 9 + 8)/6 = 7.something. So you will get the same experience as six 7th level characters but you have 2 fighters with multiple attacks and can cast 5th level spells! Pretty neat!

myro

[Ravager]

That must almost be it, then.

If you plan on taking a party right through to HOF mode, it probably is better to start with your own party, so you can plan in advance.
As useful as multi-classing is, it can compromise a character's strength (not the stat) especially if they are a spellcaster. I think there is an XP penantly for multiple classes too (if they are not favoured).

I had some of the same thoughts as you on the characters and can comment on my experience in playing them.

Tsk. I thought you hadn't played this party before.

If you like having bards in your party, you could start anew and replace Fissera(the druid,right?). Just remember CHR is important for them.

Do you have any other questions I can answer? (rather than just agreeing with me ).

[Ravager]

Do you have any other questions I can answer? (rather than just agreeing with me ).

Obviously not.

I checked all of the IWDII default parties and like the look of 'The Winter Rose' & 'Annals of Harglan' parties (best of the worst). All of the parties are probably fine, I'm just fussy and prefer characters to stand a chance on the front-line .

[myrophine]

Ravager,

Oh no I hadn't played with them before (the hands of fury) but in the hours between our posts I spent much time glued to the computer.

I think I had a lot more questions before I played the game for umpteen million hours (I have some free time on my hands).

My main questions were how to get the most out of the characters in normal and in HOF. I HAVEN'T played them in HOF mode and I don't think they would be the best party but it would be interesting to try and account for their weekness.

I'll post some brief comments and try and flesh out specific questions (as far as making a TEAM good enough for HOF).

Makados - Since he's the only divine caster I would pump his wisdom and level him up fairly high? But how high is high? And what benefit do you get from greater than 15 levels (aside from the DUHM spell)?

He has a 16 starting charisma which is a high stat for a default party. Should I multi-class to sorceror to pick up defensive buffs? That would cover for a low constitution and squeeze some use out of the Charisma. Or, should i make Makados a level 5 bard and not fissera (I don't think we need level 11 bard as there are no high ac characters so ac will be moot in HOF mode).

So what exactly to do? I'll throw out my top 3 picks:

Cleric 18 (for DUHM +6 to stats) Bard 5 (last level late) Fighter4 Rogue3

Cleric 24 (for DUHM +8 to stats) Fighter4 Rogue2

Cleric 11 for Heal Keep Charisma at 16 pump charisma and make Fissera the Cleric...giving Cleric11Sorceror19 or some such

Daheel: I really don' think theres a huge range of options...F4 for WS and 3 feats. He has no casting stat and impressive physical ones. I'd go

Barb 26 Fighter 4 OR Barb 23 Fighter 4 Rogue 3

Pump strength. I have no questions on my character unless you have a better idea or an opinion on the above choice of the two options

Harbesh Carver: From what a hear a high level rogue sucks in HOF (or is just hard to play at the least) He has the con and strength of a fighter and the intelligence to cast the minor buffs as a mage. He could be leveled as more mage and cast malison + stoneskin + prot elements. Maybe even animate dead, mass haste, (I don't know the upper level spells well)

F12 Wizard8 Rogue10 OR F22 Wizard5 Rogue3

Amraith: Not enough physicality to be a fighter (but stuck with one F level) not enough int or wis or char to be a DC caster. High dex for rogue duties. I would make him an archer and support caster and pump intelligence.

F4 Rogue3 Barb3 Wizard20

Mirai - High intelligence and 14 str 14 con good for default char. I would Make Her same as above F4Rogue3Barb3Wizard20

Fissera - We don't need a druid 12 for barkskin as no high ac characters.

Ravager what would you do with this guy? I think he has good stats for a druid as in animal form you get all new physical stats. If you have the Weidu Mod. What about Druid21barb9 for a raging elemental dragon?

Or if Makados becomes a sorceror19cleric11 make fissera a druid15cleric15 of Bane for +4 Wisdom?

So my question is what would you (Ravager or anyone else out there) do with this party going up to 30 levels and playing against HOF oponents (other than reload a lot )

myro

[Dedigan]

The major thing I'd do level-up wise would be to not use so many rogue levels. While it's nice to have evasion, it isn't really that necessary, especially if you have wizard levels. So I would make Harbesh my only rogue, giving a few more levels to play with for the other characters. I would probably turn him into fighter 8, rogue 9, wizard 13 or something similar to try to avoid experience penalties as long as possible. It isn't ideal, but it's the best I can think of for now, and lets him do all the rogue work.

As far as tactics go, you don't really have any high level arcane casters, so you'll rely more on summons than anything else in HoF mode. Fortunately, with a high level cleric and druid, you have a lot of summons. Make sure you have plenty of Malison and Emotion: Despair then your Wails of the Banshee will also be helpful.

For the barbarian and probably the druid, make sure you have a two handed weapon or a thrown weapon. Then you won't have to deal with much resurrection at all.

[Ravager]

Still going with the extra-long posts, I see. You'll have to start doing bullet-point summaries after each section. Don't worry about me, just my slightly warped sense of humour.

At the moment I am trying HOF mode in IWDI so I can probably give you tips based on that and hopefully IWDII won't be too different.

Right, all monsters have a lot more HP and extra damage dealing capability. This also seems to apply to any support you summon, so I cannot stress the benefits of people being able to summon. I can't remember whether there is a limit to the amount that can be summoned, so feel free to experiment. Unfortunately, my fireball spells have had a decreased effect (I love that spell) and the same will probably apply to the other spells. I think that the monster's stats are generally the same though, so you may be able to exploit the same weaknesses as in Normal mode, it's just going to take longer .

Multi-classing - Every time you multi-class a character and the levels are more than 1 apart, you will geta 20% XP penalty. This increases to 40% and so on for more classes. Many races have favoured classes which are ignored under this rule.

Makados does seem like a good sorceror or bard. Sorcerors should have better spell access, but bards get their songs, lower spell access and the highest lore. So it's your choice, based on your style of play. Generally I leave my bard unarmoured so that spells can be cast. In IWDI you are not allowed to wear wizard robes, this may extend to IWDII (probably not though). Either way, he'll probably stay near the back especially with the low HP provided by those classes.

Daheel probably won't multi-class well. If you want the hitpoints, I would recommend staying as a Barbarian. I think they still get d12 HP compared to fighter d10. Otherwise go to fighter, although you would be limited in feats, you should still have greater access. You would also be better with weapons as there shouldn't be any stat requirements. Check the manual for feat requirements so you know where to put the stat bonuses. Make sure you take the Heavy armour feat early on, to make him as effective as poss. As a human character his highest level is ignored when multi-classing so no xp penalty if you want him to be a fighter.

Amraith has reasonable int and wisdom so you could multi-class him to cleric or wizard depending on the rest of your party and the need for divine/arcane spells. If you do that, pump the stat required for the spell class. If he's really weak on the front-line go wizard, although I would not be too happy about wasting the ambidex and 2 weapon fighting( if points are actually placed in here rather than when wearing light or no armour). If he is a wizard he may be a reasonable fighter with stoneskin cast. As a moon elf his favoured class is probably wizard -so it's probably better on the XP front.

Harbesh- Unless locks and traps increase in difficulty in HOF (I have no idea) then I would agree that high-level rogues would be less necessary. With the high CON it may be beneficial to multi-class him to fighter, especially if he can still sneak attack (try to flank the enemy). If you want a real challenge go rogue/fighter/wizard. Unless I'm mistaken the Shield Dwarf favoured class in fighter so the penalty should be reasonable. With the lack of good melee in this party it's probably better just to go fighter.

Fissera - high int and wisdom so cleric, wizard or both. It probably depends on the amout of wizards you have (I seem to have recommeded it virtually every time ). You could also get rid of her for a time to get XP bonuses (5 party members for XP sharing rather than 6) and bring her back when required. Unfortunately you can't cast spells in animal form, AFAIK, but it might make her tougher on the front-line. I don't make that much use of shapeshifting. As a human her highest level class will be ignored when multi-classing.

Phew, that's finally it . I might think about the actual levels later.

Do you like the different colours -thought it might break it up a bit .

[Raven_Song]

Good luck with the Hands of Fury! I've played through to chapter 5 with all of the default parties (I'm exceptionally lazy) and of the five i found them to be the worst (even their backgrounds were poorly conceived - I mean no matter how evil the druid they would never work alongside a Talasan priest ) I found it difficult to make them work in normal mode, there is no way I would have even though of taking them into HoF.

I'm with Ravager that The Winter Rose and Annals of Halgren are the best of a bad bunch, in fact the party that I use now is a slight variation on The Winter Rose and I've found them incredibly effective.

Again, good luck Myrophine

[Ravager]

Feat progression

Myrophine, I was looking at my startegy guide to check the class feats to help you decide when to multi-class. Are you sure you want to know all this stuff ? Normally when something is picked apart this much, for me, it just spoils some of the enjoyment.

Anyway, starting with Barbarian:
- Greater Rage at 15th Level
- No fatigue from the 20th post Rage
- Damage Resistance +2 at 11th and +1 every four levels after.
- Barbarians can't be flanked .

Bard
- Can use any magic items
- Highest level song at 11th

Druid
- Wild Shape from 5th and every 2 levels after.
- Immune to posion from 9th
- " " fatigue from 15th

Fighter
- New feat every even level
- 2 at level 1

Monk ( I know you probably won't go down the monk route)
- Abilities gained up to 20th

Rogue
- Special feats from 10th and every 3 levels after

Wizard
- Special feats every 5 levels

Ranger
- Free 2-Waepon fighting + Ambi-Dex when wearing light or no armour
- Spells from 4th
- Favoured enemy every 5th level

Hope this helps - Remember the XP penalties for multi-classing.

ADDITION: I don't know if the spell Draw Upon Holy Might has a cap. Most of these spells that increase by level do.

Cleric 24 (for DUHM +8 to stats) Fighter4 Rogue2

I would go for the above on Makados, except change the Rogue to Bard - You already have have a high-level competent rogue.

Daheel: I really don' think theres a huge range of options...F4 for WS and 3 feats. He has no casting stat and impressive physical ones. I'd go

I really don' think theres a huge range of options...F4 for WS and 3 feats. He has no casting stat and impressive physical ones. I'd go

Barb 26 Fighter 4 OR Barb 23 Fighter 4 Rogue 3

Maybe go for more Fighter levels and long as Daheel has reached level 20+. Then put points into weapon specialisations to increase his to hit chances.

Harbesh: I would cut out the Wizard levels and split equally between Fighter and Rogue. You should get some reasonable feats 10+ for the rogue. Probably stop with the rogue around level 20 max.

How many classes do you want Amraith to have?! Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian,Wizard?! . That will be a huge XP penalty for him. Stick with Fighter, Ranger and Wizard. Concentrate on Fighter and Ranger, and put points into his ranged weapon skills.

Mirai: Go Barbarian/Wizard for the HP boost. You won't be able to wear heavy armour, but that's bad for wizards anyway. Focus mainly on the wizard levels.


So basically, I agree with Dedigan .

[Ravager]

How is it going, Myrophine? Do you need any more advice?

[myrophine]

(Short post...don't worry ravager )

Thanks for the input from both of you. I am currently running through BG2 with a sorceror and some NPCs I never played with.

But some time I will try Hands of Fury in Heart of Fury. It should be interesting and I will report my results at that time (if I am able to beat the game).

myro

[myrophine]

After a long time thinking and several less optimal attempts (played and unplayed) Here is what I've decided on for my Hands of Fury to Heart of Fury run.....

(see your Icewind dale CD "default parties" if you are curious about stats

Makados - human, CE, starts as L1 stormlord of Talos

normal goal: Cleric X Bard1 (at 1st level up take bard).
normal role: Main Cleric and singer once lingering song and combat casting taken.

HOF goal: Cleric 19 Bard 11 (to this effect take to cleric 15 Bard 5 then max cleric at 19 then Bard 11)
HOF role: singer, cleric caster (1 of 2), occassional melee when fully buffed DUHM + bard protective spells.

Pump Wisdom + 7

Dahel Bloody Four

normal and HOF: BarbXFighter4 (take fighter levels whenever is convenient I like early to grab feats)

normal role: main attacker AND tank
HOF role: when amraith shines as ultimate AC character with cleric and mage buffs shift him to a throwing axe attacker plus slasher/rager/bodyguard

BTW pump his strength as he is going to be a slasher. Also Dahel was a human chaotic evil

Amraith, moon elf neutral evil, starts with 1 fighter level and amb + 2WF

normal goal and building order: Fighter 4 for archery feats
Mage 5 for defensive buffs and 6 BAB...
squat untill banite quest...
Cleric 3 or 5 (ps watch the number and don't get caught having to put in 6+ and an xp penalty).

role: Master archer and High AC + buffs decoy/guardian

HOF goal: cleric 18 Mage 8 Fighter 4
pump dexterity +6 (will get another +6 from DUHM spell) and wisdom +1
HOF role: Spellsword and High AC tank (plus buffs cleric and mage). Also casts malison and stoneskin.

BTW Amraith is also the backup cleric (at high levels)

Mirai Wainwright, half elf, mage 1 at start, 18 intelligence

normal goal: WizardXFighter1 (for any weapon, one feat, and since scrolls aren't all over the place...)
role: main arcane caster as int is 18 (rare for default party character). Also main wizard for versatile casting. Arcane knowledge (pots, lore, spellcraft)

HOF goal: since wizard 21-24 gains little I have some choices. Low strength so don't need tons of fighter levels. Ranged attack will be mordys sword. Don't know if weapon specializations in swords would increase damage of mordys sword? Will experiment.

HOF role: still primary arcane caster...WOB etc. Arcane knowledge.

btw pump mirais intelligence +6 to 7 depending on items found (odd or even)

Fissera, human, Neutral Evil, Druid 1

normal goal: how about sorceror X/druid 1 (for a whopping 2 entangles )?
normal role: dish out elemental pain + backup caster and only sorceror, talker.

HOF goal: Sorceror18 Druid 12 (tough decisions on sorc spell selection) take levels in druid as needed for (better) barkskin to help Amraith in AC tanking (but this only happens when amraith has all the bow feats (WF, WS, dirty fighting, Improved Critical) plus weapon finesse and "the feat that swaps AB for generic AC up to 5...I forgot it..." and dodge)
HOF role: barkskinner, talker, call lightning/static, sorceror multiple castings of up to 9th level spells (WOB?).

pump charisma +7

Harbesh Carver, starts as Rogue 1, shield dwarf. note: dexterity 10, true neutral

normal goal: RogueX/MageX - buffer and "somebodies gotta do the rogue things". Plus I'm avoiding the xp penalty as long as possible.
role: see above

HOF goal: can't decide between: Rogue10/Mage20 with int 21
Rogue11/Mage11/Fighter8-int16 str18 dex13
the second choice would be a heck of a slasher with the backstab and str18 base plus tensors transformation (the 13 dex is for stacking with tensors in ranged attacks and for dirty fighting feat). The first choice could be a good mage in the end but I think the Intelligence is too low and I fear he would just be diddling around while Mirai and Fissera shine.

Anyhow I thought I'd submit what I'll be playing for...Aack!...criticism , BEFORE I invest millions and millions of hours building a bad party (like the previous got bored in normal attempts).

-myrophine