Disciplines and other things

Kain · Post by **Kain** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:14 am

Hello there...u know after finishing the game for the first time(male Tremere) I was feeling good about it , but there is this thing..I am not familiar with White Wolf rpg world and ways but in VtM Redemption your vampire could learn more than just the clan disciplines(no limitations?!)...I mean Cristoph(spell check?) was a Brujah but later in the game I had him learn and use Thaumaturgy and some other..in fact so many that I even did not know which one to use..
Anyway does this ability to learn other discplines really exist in White Wolf universe or did they just put it in for Redemption(maybe has something to do with the generations..new vamps are weaker/have lesser abilities)..cos I can't help it but picture my perfect Tremere with his already awesome discplines having another three..like say Potence , Celerity and Fortitude..and then there's nothing stopping you..you know - ultimate killing machine

... Maybe this was my major disappointment..at least after playing VtMR and not having any clue how things are except for the info that game gave me I kinda thought that it's gonna be the same in Bloodlines...anyway..the game is super cool the way it is but if eventually a patch or add-on emerges which gives you this little ability - I'll be the first to get it

..
Anyone who knows what I'm talking about please share your knowledge.
Also I miss the weapons..all the different swords and axes and everything..
One last thing before I go...in Redemption when a member of your party loses all his/her health , they go in torpor, whlie in Bloodlines vampires just sparkle and disappear(final death right)..is this the way it shoud be or maybe the developers have been watching too much Blade ?...

Raziel : Kain is deified. The clans tell tales of him. Few know the truth. He was mortal once, as were we all...

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:27 am

In the pnp version of Vampire the Masquerade, vampires can learn non-clan disciplines (each clan has three disciplines that clan is particularly skilled at learning). Some disciplines (such as thaumaturgy) are closely guarded clan secrets. As such, they require a teacher in order to learn. However, other disciplines can be learned for a higher experience cost than clan disciplines.

In my opinion, Bloodlines didn't implement this feature largely to preserve game balance and preserve some replayability. Probably, being able to have thaumaturgy, fortitude and celerity, for example, would over simplify the game. There is a mod called the "Pen and Paper mod" (designed by Offkorn I think) that reinstates the missing clan and enables every clan to buy some disciplines (celerity and fortitude, for instance). It should be at PlanetVampire somewhere. Personally, I find it a bit overpowering. But it might be appealing to others.

As to your question about damage - when a vampire takes their full health's worth of non-aggravated damage they enter torpor. Aggravated damage will kill them, though (so think in terms of Protean claws, fire, etc.). However, excessive amounts of bashing or lethal damage will eventually kill a vampire as well (they can only take so much).

Personally, I liked Bloodlines much better than Redemption. Sure, there was no party system. But the game as a whole was much more intricate. Moreover, it wasn't quite as linear or hack and slash.

Johnny · Post by **Johnny** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:49 pm

Vampires can learn out-of-clan disciplines, but they must pay 7*level XP for each point instead of 5. Vampires who don't belong to a clan (caitiff who aren't thin-bloods) can learn any discipline for 6*level XP. In either case, they must convince a member of another clan to teach them (not always easy).

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:30 pm

[QUOTE=Johnny]Vampires can learn out-of-clan disciplines, but they must pay 7*level XP for each point instead of 5. Vampires who don't belong to a clan (caitiff who aren't thin-bloods) can learn any discipline for 6*level XP. In either case, they must convince a member of another clan to teach them (not always easy).[/QUOTE]

Or someone who knows said discipline from their own clan. And to add, there's generally a 10 point experience cost to learn the first level of a new discipline. This doesn't apply if you spend character creation points to learn a non-clan discipline.

It's important to note that Celerity, Fortitude, and Potence are considered much easier to learn for vampires as its just a natural extention of their ability to boost their physical stats. Similarly, Thaumaturgy, Chimerstry, Serpentis, Obtenebration, Quietus, and other tightly guarded clan disciplines are very difficult for any non-clan member to learn (as they are rarelly taught).

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:08 pm

I think this has covered it quite nicely, but consider it like this so that the logic of it makes more sense to you:

You and five of yoru friends know how to print money. You can either keep printing money for yourselves when you need it and never let anyone know why you always seem to have some spare cash, or you can teach everyone and ruin it's secret, pretty much making you a sucker.

Choice seems obvious.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:28 pm

[QUOTE=pennypincher]I think this has covered it quite nicely, but consider it like this so that the logic of it makes more sense to you:

You and five of yoru friends know how to print money. You can either keep printing money for yourselves when you need it and never let anyone know why you always seem to have some spare cash, or you can teach everyone and ruin it's secret, pretty much making you a sucker.

Choice seems obvious.[/QUOTE]

And that's a good point. In general, it's only the vampires who are closest to you (perhaps a mentor figure or, more likely, a sire who is grooming you for something) who are likely to teach you any new discipline groups. It's generally in a vampire's best interest to keep other's around them as weak as possible. As such, it's not an easy task learning a new discipline (like I said, I'd call the exceptions Fortitude, Celerity, and Potence which are somewhat easier to learn and could potentially be self-learned).

That's probably what irritated me about disciplines in VtR. It's simply too easy to learn a disciplines. Why its somewhat fun to have so many options, it would have been more interesting to build in-game dynamics for learning specific disciplines (beyond tomes).

Kain · Post by **Kain** » Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:56 am

10x for your replys

I must say ..I agree with you, in WtMR it was too easy and having so many kinda takes the satisfaction from developing your character(btw i didn't like the party system..I prefer one character so I can focus on him)..
So there actually is a mod that gives you new disciplines..I'll try to find it and see what it can do..
And yes I also think Bloodlines is the better game overall..