[QUOTE=Ravager]I live near London. I just hadn't heard that piece of news.
For anyone who's interested and hasn't heard already, it seems the police are making progress, it's believed that the attacks were carried out by suicide bombers after raids carried out at Luton (just north of London) and in Yorkshire. Don't know much more than that. Check the BBC website for more info.[/QUOTE]
It was all over the radio stations - TalkSport were making a huge issue out of the apparent "double standards"
What they mentioned, but failed to emphasize, was that this instruction to US military personel was issued on Friday (the day after the bombings) and an oversight failed to see it lifted. I withold judgement on this one, since within a four mile radius of my home there are two US bases - well within the M25. I saw no evacuation.
I can understand the reaction of less informed Londoners on this, all things considered, but my personal belief - until I am convinced otherwise - is that it has been blown out of proportion.
Re the "suicide bombers" survivors of the No 30 bus had reported an individual who seemed agitated and constantly rummaging through his bag. Forensics have since found evidence to suggest he was a suicide bomber, and his family had reported him missing. Further evidence from Aldgate is being investigated and various homes have been raided by armed police, with nearby residences evacuated. There has been at least one controlled explosion in West Yorkshire, and some arrests.
<edit> I am glad to see you're ok, Minerva! I did text you but got no response. The phones lines were up the creek, and I might not have your latest phone number, but it is good to see you're ok
Parachute for sale, like new! Never opened!
Guinness, black goes with everything.
I just read about this today, skimmed through a lot of the posts to save time though. It's horrible, and everything said already, a lot of it I've thought myself.
Yet, I have to wonder now. Has anyone thought of the possibility that some of these attacks might be planned and orchestrated by those in power and running the countries there were made in? Simply to set into motion the plans they've been wanting to act on for some time and they decided "screw it, let's do -this- to see it gets done, no matter the cost." Granted no evidence or anything, but really, it wouldn't be THAT hard to set up for someone running a rich and powerful nation. They can mislead their whole countries with propoganda. Why not feed information to terrorist cells and goad them, unknowing into acting exactly how those in power need them to in order to get their people to be behind whatever actions they wish to take?
Just a thought beyond what's been put up here. I don't know much about Blair, but I could see Bush urging and ally to set something like this up to garner more support for the activities they're going on with.
"You can do whatever you want to me." "Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?" "So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
Woah, Magrus! I would not dare to even dream the possibility! This is a free world, a democracy, right? However we perceive the term or politic, we surely have to believe that, in the western world, that kind of stuff only happens on TV to feed and thrill the paranoid side of our nature?
Though I accept that a little spinning following such a tragedy is inevitable...
But, sorry, no. I can't accept this as a possibility, this would make our "protectors" worse than those who terrorise the innocents. Not in our own front yards, surely?
Parachute for sale, like new! Never opened!
Guinness, black goes with everything.
Woah, Magrus! I would not dare to even dream the possibility! This is a free world, a democracy, right? However we perceive the term or politic, we surely have to believe that, in the western world, that kind of stuff only happens on TV to feed and thrill the paranoid side of our nature?
The world used to be thought of as flat, and that it was the center of the universe, right? Things change. I'm not saying that's something that's "truth" and "fact", just something to consider. What's to stop them from thinking "They'd never believe we'd do this, we could get away with it." Where they come from doesn't matter, does it? Whether they're rich, well educated and in power doesn't either.
People are people, and there's destructive, malicious, cruel people everywhere and from every group you can concieve. There's greedy people, and corruption takes place as well. Is it *so* hard to concieve as a possibility? 6 years ago no one thought people were going be able to dare to drive planes into NYC, right?
"You can do whatever you want to me." "Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?" "So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
[QUOTE=Magrus]The world used to be thought of as flat, and that it was the center of the universe, right? Things change. I'm not saying that's something that's "truth" and "fact", just something to consider. What's to stop them from thinking "They'd never believe we'd do this, we could get away with it." Where they come from doesn't matter, does it? Whether they're rich, well educated and in power doesn't either.
People are people, and there's destructive, malicious, cruel people everywhere and from every group you can concieve. There's greedy people, and corruption takes place as well. Is it *so* hard to concieve as a possibility? 6 years ago no one thought people were going be able to dare to drive planes into NYC, right?[/QUOTE]
What's to stop them? A hell of a lot of powerful and corrupt people in one place at one time that all agree...are they all that destructive?
Maybe my experience or perceptions are insular or misguided, but I maintain there are more good people in this world than not. I have met cruel and destructive people, but I have met many more who are honest and good. I don't think that where I have grown up, what I have come to believe in, what I hold dear, is totally naive.
We live and grow, education is organic, a fact like the earth is flat can now be disproven benignly...we would be looking at a world wide conspiracy that labels every human as game meat for the gain of a few to accept that this was orchestrated in this country.
Six years ago no-one dared think about the possibility of someone flying a plane into NYC, I don't know that anyone questioned the ability or the nature of such a faction.
Parachute for sale, like new! Never opened!
Guinness, black goes with everything.
I guess it was only a matter of time before someone brought the conspiracy theory up. It just doesn't make sense. If 'the powers that be' wished to test their emergency plans, a false alarm would have worked just as well. Consider what happened in Birmingham after the London bombings. While a discovered deliberate false alarm would certainly turn the heat up on the government and government officals involved it would have nothing like the effect that the discovery of the callous slaughter of 50 or more people would.
I don't support Blair, but even he isn't either that stupid or bloodthirsty.
I think we all can consider the possibility of such callous acts given the nature of the current western powers and I fully expect the fear and difficulty to be capitalised upon by the conservative right. It is another thing to suggest that these are likely actions when there is no significant benefit for such a large risk. The previous Spanish government learnt that bomb politics was a dangerous business at best.
The most recently released evidence points to a small group of youth with Pakastani background from Leeds.
My symapathy for all who were involved and I hope that this does not prompt another round of the removal of rights, or religious intolerance, in the western world.
The warlord sig of 's' - word
Making a reappearance for those who have a sig even longer
[quote="Dilbert]That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard[/quote]
[quote=Waverly]You all suck donkeys[/quote]
[quote={deleted after legal threats}]I am so not a drama queen![/quote"]
I hate to admit but I had that thought. I can't live in a world like that though, so I dismissed it[/QUOTE]
Normally, I disregard anything that can be slotted into the term "conspiracy theories", as mentioned above. I'm not saying it's a likely thing that happened, simply idle speculation. Why didn't I dismiss it, because of that exact mentality above. I tend to analyze everything that provokes my interest and look at how to make the best from it. This gives me odd perspectives and frankly, if I was running a country, I'd need to know the mood of my people. Most seek to manipulated those around them to conforming to their "ideal vision" of what they want done in their run as a political figure.
Now, we can look at the pro's and con's and all of that. However, a single person has far, far more risk of setting a bomb off than a government. Why? The resources involved, not just to make the bomb, or the trained demolitions expert or money. The people that can cover the trail up, make it dissapear, all of that. How hard would it be for the intelligence branch of a government to wander over to a known "terrorist", pretend he's a supporter, drop 50 grand on the guy and tell him to set a bomb at a certain place and a certain time for it?
Why would someone do so? They know the mood of their people, and if the end result out-weighs the risk, and they know the general public denies what they don't like about reality, it's very easy for someone in power to point and say "he did it" and come off easy. I mean, really, how many mother's and father's turn the other way and say "my son can't have done that" when the kid does something bad because they don't want to accept someone they know and love has done something bad?
*shrugs* Maybe it's just my attitude with the people I've grown up around and the violent crime around me. Still, all it would take is one man in office to say "drop a few hints to X group" and to goad them into a place to bomb if said group was discovered planning to do so. Turning a potential disaster, into a disaster with perks for those in power. Maybe it's looking back on the reaction's of the Bush administration that made me think of that. Maybe they're completely unrelated, then again, given the circumstances...if it wasn't the Irish, who else would have bombed them and why?
[QUOTE=Yshania]We live and grow, education is organic, a fact like the earth is flat can now be disproven benignly...we would be looking at a world wide conspiracy that labels every human as game meat for the gain of a few to accept that this was orchestrated in this country.[/QUOTE]
We're looking at a species that views this entire planet as it's own personal possession, aren't we? The attitude of the majority of humanit is "Everything is ours to do what we want with", why reject such a concept out of hand because it's not "good"? I'm sure if I was able to ask a deer what they thought of our species, or a tree, or any other creature on this planet "good" wouldn't come into their opinion of humanity. All in all, it was simply my idle speculation. Personally, I don't care what caused it to be honest. Whatever the cause, it was a malicious act that harmed innocents and shouldn't have happened. Yet, I wonder. There's numerous things that could have been the cause and motive behind doing something like that, I just tossed one out beyond the things which were already said.
"You can do whatever you want to me." "Oh, so I can crate you and hide you in the warehouse at the end of Raiders?" "So funny, kiss me funny boy!" / *Sprays mace* " I know, I know, bad for the ozone"
@Magrus: You raise some points worthy of discussion. Since I want to avoid going off-topic in this thread, I'll comment in the Civilized Discussion and Debate thread.
CYNIC, n.:
A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. -[url="http://www.alcyone.com/max/lit/devils/a.html"]The Devil's Dictionary[/url]
I am not up on currant events but does anybody know who is responsible, or if anyone claimed responsibility. blah blah love songs. Seriously, condolences to the those who suffored in England. Drink a micks worth of Irish Keg for me if ye ain't Dead and in forieng lands.
Yes, the BBC is reporting 4 dummy nail bombs, simply used to create maximum havoc. I suspect this is a malicious prankster, not a terrorist--since the latter would hardly rig a dummy bomb for any reason. And I hope they get the jerk who did this.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=fable]Yes, the BBC is reporting 4 dummy nail bombs, simply used to create maximum havoc. I suspect this is a malicious prankster, not a terrorist--since the latter would hardly rig a dummy bomb for any reason. And I hope they get the jerk who did this.[/QUOTE]
It is as I see it similar to the days of when Anthrax letters were send around, where some "pranksters" started sending powded sugar or flover(spelling ) letters around.
Such people make me sick to the same degree terrorists does.
Complete agreement. A person who does this should be treated harshly for the fear and horror they are tryiing to invoke.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
From the BBC; Five incidents, and a man has been arrested--presumably in connection with at least one of them.
EDIT: Latest news is that the bombs were in fact meant to kill. What's amazing is that all of them failed at the same time. Let's hope the survival of the people carrying them means some more arrests.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
Yep - it seemed that 3 of the "new" bombs where infact similar to the ones used in the last bombings. Luck would have it that there was a problem with them, so only the detonater went off but failed to bring the explosives to explosion as well.
[QUOTE=fable]Bush's core supporters are rural,[/QUOTE]
Fable, I dont oppose any of the rest of the post, but being rural doesnt mean being ignorant/undereducated. I think that was not your point but it sure sounded like that.
@All. I'm shocked. Another bombings. Also, I'm wondering: is this the new kind of world war? Because it may strike everywhere on anyone, just like the bombings on europe at ww 1 and 2. I'm pretty sure this wont come to my place because I live rather far from an economic center, but I doubt São Paulo, Belo Horizonte, Rio de Janeiro and Curitiba are completely immune to bombings.
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]Fable, I dont oppose any of the rest of the post, but being rural doesnt mean being ignorant/undereducated. I think that was not your point but it sure sounded like that.
[/QUOTE]
Luis, you need to include the entire post when you make a statement like that, because you're referring to things that aren't in the quote. Let's do it:
Bush's core supporters are rural, anti-intellectual, evangelical, poorly educated (whether at school or self-), and believe decisions in life should be made on the basis of emotions. Now, ask yourself: whom do you think Bush plays to when he goes anywhere in the world and speaks to media, using the phrase "terrorist folks"?
You're making an interpretative error, here. I've stated in effect that Bush's core constituency consists of followers who have these qualities: A, B, C, D, etc. You've made the illogical jump to believing I've said A=B. Where did I do that? You might as well conclude that I've said A=C, or D, that being rural means being evangelical. That's not the case.
But it is more likely that rural people from a mainstream US culture will be poorly educated than urban dwellers, because the financial resources for education are concentrated in urban areas. It is also more likely that rural inhabitants in the US will be evangelical than urbanites, for a variety of historical factors going back to the skeptical empiricism of the original colonial capitols vs. the emotionally directed, community-based faith movements of the many small farming communities. And this can be seen in other nations, too. Modern cultural anthropologists know that iIf you want to research the past, you walk as far away from the cities as you can. Folk legends and older religious beliefs can be found in the countryside. In the US, for example, there are still remnants of pre-Christian Celtic faiths to be found in the dirt-poor mountains of Appalachia.
But does this mean that every person living in a small US farming community is poorly educated, anti-intellectual or evangelical? Of course not. And that gets back to my original comment. Bush's constituency has all those qualities, and the demographics match up to these. That doesn't mean any one of them automatically implies the rest.
To the Righteous belong the fruits of violent victory. The rest of us will have to settle for warm friends, warm lovers, and a wink from a quietly supportive universe.
[QUOTE=Luis Antonio]@All. I'm shocked. Another bombings. Also, I'm wondering: is this the new kind of world war? Because it may strike everywhere on anyone, just like the bombings on europe at ww 1 and 2. I'm pretty sure this wont come to my place because I live rather far from an economic center, but I doubt São Paulo, Belo Horizonte, Rio de Janeiro and Curitiba are completely immune to bombings.
Fear.[/QUOTE]
But do you think al-Qaeda or any other radical Muslim types have much of a reason to target you? I mean, it's obvious why London is a target, everyone has been expecting it since the start of the war in Iraq. I doubt it's a sign that this is going to start happening all over the world. I haven't heard that Brazil has been particularly vehement in its support for the war. I don't think you have much to worry about.
The media is really annoying me, actually. They seem to make sure all the people they interview are the paranoid ones who say they're never going to take a tube or a bus again, and drive into the city instead, and then conclude that London is pervaded by a climate of fear, when by my experience 99% of Londoners are just getting on with their daily lives. Trust the media to overhype everything.
