In another topic I posted (by accident, I just tried to reply to the "old fart" topic, so I had some offensive morons throw some insults on me, cause they didn't got the meaning of it) some people brought up the issue "what is cheating" in this game.
Well, to start a conversation about it, I think using shadowkeeper IS cheating. Proceeding the game relying on a walkthrough IS cheating. Using Faketalk strategy maybe is NOT cheating, but it sure ain't fun either. It spoils the games essence, if you ask me. Still, the game has a number of bugs, that could be used in advantage of a player. So, if you do so, you are considered (by yourself, at least) a cheater?
Or, as someone else implied, if you go into a war in real life, would it be "cheating" to find your enemy's weaknesses and take advantage of them?
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Veni, vidi, vici
Julius Ceasar
what is cheating?
what is cheating?
Ubik
Elder God B.P. Pervert
Elder God B.P. Pervert
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Hazim ibn Gorion
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Taken to extremes, restarting a game could be considered cheating. This is especially a problem with thief skills. How many of us have taken a thief with low pickpocketing and just restarted until they were successful? Also, does anyone pretty much just ignore the threat of traps until you trip one. Then, restart your quicksave and take the time to find/disarm the trap?
My opinion on the subject is that in any game were you do not give your opponents or fellow competers a sportly chance to beat you and win is a cheated game. When it's no longer a "fair game". I know that sounds lame and makes me a frequent cheater myself but there you have it.
Knowing your opponents weaknesses and strengths I do not consider cheating. If he is interested in winning he is bound to try and figure out what your weaknesses and strengths are as well. Indeed one could say that the whole point of a game, were the sides are not identical, is to be the first to find out what your opponents weakness is and take advantage of that in order to win.
I could further narrow down cheating by defining it as a situation were one of the contestants have such an advantage over the other that it's immediatly clear who will win. Imagine the elite of the english soccer teams challanging the worst of the junior league. On could at best consider that a joke but hardly a fair game.
Knowing your opponents weaknesses and strengths I do not consider cheating. If he is interested in winning he is bound to try and figure out what your weaknesses and strengths are as well. Indeed one could say that the whole point of a game, were the sides are not identical, is to be the first to find out what your opponents weakness is and take advantage of that in order to win.
I could further narrow down cheating by defining it as a situation were one of the contestants have such an advantage over the other that it's immediatly clear who will win. Imagine the elite of the english soccer teams challanging the worst of the junior league. On could at best consider that a joke but hardly a fair game.
I agree with Thomas. You should beat the game in a fair way.
Using flaws/bugs in the game is NOT the same as exploiting a weakness. The flaw/bug is not *intended* to be there - the weakness is. Using a flaw/bug is cheating, using a weakness is not. How can you even consider that using a "tactic" like falktalk isn't cheating? Would you perhaps think it was ok, if monsters could do it to you?
I do use "detect trap" always, but then again, I must admit, that I am not above reloading if I have suffered too many casualties or just done something plain stupid. So I suppose I am sort of a cheater.
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"Beyond the grave they will find nothing but death. But we shall keep the secret, and for their happiness we shall allure them with the reward of heaven and eternity." -- Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
Using flaws/bugs in the game is NOT the same as exploiting a weakness. The flaw/bug is not *intended* to be there - the weakness is. Using a flaw/bug is cheating, using a weakness is not. How can you even consider that using a "tactic" like falktalk isn't cheating? Would you perhaps think it was ok, if monsters could do it to you?
I do use "detect trap" always, but then again, I must admit, that I am not above reloading if I have suffered too many casualties or just done something plain stupid. So I suppose I am sort of a cheater.
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"Beyond the grave they will find nothing but death. But we shall keep the secret, and for their happiness we shall allure them with the reward of heaven and eternity." -- Fyodor Dostoyevsky, The Brothers Karamazov
Things aren't so trivial as they seem.
1. Suppose you meet a pack of gibberlings. Isn't it immediately clear who will win? What sportly chance do they have?
2. Kangaxx. Who is cheating here? I daresay that it is the guy with infinitely many ranged no-save uninterruptable imprisonments who is cheating.
3. A pack of Ulitharids. Each of them has 5 attacks per round. They attack your INT score and take away 5-6 INT points per every successful attack. When your INT score reaches zero, you are dead. Who is cheating here?
As far as the sportly chance is concerned. There is a great difference between a hero and a monster:
a) If the hero survives, the game continues. If the hero dies, the game ends.
b) If the monster survives, the game ends. If the monster dies, the game continues.
In the other words, a monster is a one-use being. It can throw all its power into a single fight. If it survives, it wins the game. If it dies, nothing happens. The hero can not use all his power for a single fight because of the next monster behind the corner. He must not die. The sportly chance should be pretty low. An example: Suppose the monster has 5% chance to win and that there are 20 such monsters in the dungeon. The chance of successful completing the dungeon is less than 36%. You will restart the game 2-3 times (in the average) in the dungeon because of hero's death. I think you has to modify your example with the elite team. The elite team must pass a large tournament without losing a single match. Now, it stops to be a joke. A "sportly chance" cannot be a criterion.
Ahh, well, Fake Talk again. Fake Talk is neither a bug nor a flaw in the game. It is a result of using scripts. The base time quantum is one round in the script. That's why we cannot create an effective melee/ranged script. The hero will use bow the whole round even if his opponent is close to him. He will switch to melee next round, i.e., too late. Similarly, the dragon will wait one round for the talk before he becomes hostile. I agree Fake Talk is ugly and it should be replaced by something else.
As far as cheating is concerned, I define cheating as using external means for changing game rules and conditions. Shadowkeeper is a cheat. Exp cap remover is a cheat as well. Fake Talk is not a cheat, it is an unsatisfactory method of winning some fights. CLUAConsole is not a cheat because it is an integral part of the game, nevertheless, CLUAConsole is as unsatisfactory as the Fake Talk. Restarting a game is not a cheat, it is another unsatisfactory tool, similar to Fake Talk - we will restart the game until we win the fight, where is a difference?
Our goal should be not to use unsatisfactory tools.
1. Suppose you meet a pack of gibberlings. Isn't it immediately clear who will win? What sportly chance do they have?
2. Kangaxx. Who is cheating here? I daresay that it is the guy with infinitely many ranged no-save uninterruptable imprisonments who is cheating.
3. A pack of Ulitharids. Each of them has 5 attacks per round. They attack your INT score and take away 5-6 INT points per every successful attack. When your INT score reaches zero, you are dead. Who is cheating here?
As far as the sportly chance is concerned. There is a great difference between a hero and a monster:
a) If the hero survives, the game continues. If the hero dies, the game ends.
b) If the monster survives, the game ends. If the monster dies, the game continues.
In the other words, a monster is a one-use being. It can throw all its power into a single fight. If it survives, it wins the game. If it dies, nothing happens. The hero can not use all his power for a single fight because of the next monster behind the corner. He must not die. The sportly chance should be pretty low. An example: Suppose the monster has 5% chance to win and that there are 20 such monsters in the dungeon. The chance of successful completing the dungeon is less than 36%. You will restart the game 2-3 times (in the average) in the dungeon because of hero's death. I think you has to modify your example with the elite team. The elite team must pass a large tournament without losing a single match. Now, it stops to be a joke. A "sportly chance" cannot be a criterion.
Ahh, well, Fake Talk again. Fake Talk is neither a bug nor a flaw in the game. It is a result of using scripts. The base time quantum is one round in the script. That's why we cannot create an effective melee/ranged script. The hero will use bow the whole round even if his opponent is close to him. He will switch to melee next round, i.e., too late. Similarly, the dragon will wait one round for the talk before he becomes hostile. I agree Fake Talk is ugly and it should be replaced by something else.
As far as cheating is concerned, I define cheating as using external means for changing game rules and conditions. Shadowkeeper is a cheat. Exp cap remover is a cheat as well. Fake Talk is not a cheat, it is an unsatisfactory method of winning some fights. CLUAConsole is not a cheat because it is an integral part of the game, nevertheless, CLUAConsole is as unsatisfactory as the Fake Talk. Restarting a game is not a cheat, it is another unsatisfactory tool, similar to Fake Talk - we will restart the game until we win the fight, where is a difference?
Our goal should be not to use unsatisfactory tools.
By the way... is there a really good cheatcodelist anywhere? I missed out some goodies at De'Arnises keep (they disappeared when i became lord) and at the Asylum (i happened to close a door to escape some golems and now i can't get to that bowstring). I feel cheated so now i want to cheat back!
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"Det faller på Ronny Hadarzon."
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"Det faller på Ronny Hadarzon."
"Det faller på Ronny Hadarzon."
CLUAConsole has very similar properties to shadowkeeper, if shadowkeeper brought other items into the game that were not already there then you would almost certainly be right.
As for the Fake Talk i think it does ditract somewhat, but you have to use your own discretion, i once killed Fikraag without taking a single hit, funny but i would not want to repeat it, it is boring.
An EXP. cap remover is not a cheat when they put spells in that you can only use consistently when you remove the cap.
All of these things should only be used when you have beaten the game, therefore prooving your worth and giving you free reign to mess with your charcter to your hearts content
As for the Fake Talk i think it does ditract somewhat, but you have to use your own discretion, i once killed Fikraag without taking a single hit, funny but i would not want to repeat it, it is boring.
An EXP. cap remover is not a cheat when they put spells in that you can only use consistently when you remove the cap.
All of these things should only be used when you have beaten the game, therefore prooving your worth and giving you free reign to mess with your charcter to your hearts content
I'd have to get drunk every night and talk about virility...And those Pink elephants I'd see.
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Jurosementalistile
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I would just like to point out that in a real battle the objective is to defeat your enemies for some moral purpose; to stop them from killing your own people or other serious matters. The objective in BG2 is to have fun. If in real life you had the opportunity to take advantage of the fact that your enemy won't fight back if you keep talking to him, of course you would take it because it would save lives. There is no such issue in BG2. If you could do the whole game like that, wouldn't it be kind of pointless? The dragons are some of the hardest battles, so they should be the ones you play the fairest. In my opinion anyway, if you can win the hardest fairly, you know you could have done any of the others if you had to.
As for Kangaxx, he is a lich, not a man. He is not governed by the same rules as PC's.
As for the XP cap, I think you have to keep in mind the game was not designed to take into account PC's who could regularly cast ninth level spells. It comes down to the mater of fun again. I decided to go through the game once without it just to see that I could, and then use the XP cap remover so I could have the fun of a super powerful character.
One last thing, I certainly consider the talking thing with the dragon to be far closer to cheating than reading a walkthrough.
As for Kangaxx, he is a lich, not a man. He is not governed by the same rules as PC's.
As for the XP cap, I think you have to keep in mind the game was not designed to take into account PC's who could regularly cast ninth level spells. It comes down to the mater of fun again. I decided to go through the game once without it just to see that I could, and then use the XP cap remover so I could have the fun of a super powerful character.
One last thing, I certainly consider the talking thing with the dragon to be far closer to cheating than reading a walkthrough.
There are a few ways to cheat against the game engine, like closing doors on monsters that for some reason can cast 9th level spells but can't turn a doorknob. Or stacking 3 cloudkills on a dragon that's off the screen, or casting a fireball into a crowd that you can't see but know is there (sneak up with a theif first).
Then there are little holes in the plot, like the fact the kid in windspear hills walked home out of the dungeon when I had left a greater wolfwere in his path.. but I guess the game can't really recognize that can it?
As far as Planescape: Torment goes.. I was kinda pissed I never got to use my Celestial Fury on the transcendent one the second time though, hehe
Then there are little holes in the plot, like the fact the kid in windspear hills walked home out of the dungeon when I had left a greater wolfwere in his path.. but I guess the game can't really recognize that can it?
As far as Planescape: Torment goes.. I was kinda pissed I never got to use my Celestial Fury on the transcendent one the second time though, hehe
1. Kangaxx: It does not matter that Kangaxx is a lich. Kangaxx is using a tool that gives you NO CHANCE - his method of winning the battle is the same as the Fake Talk method.
2. Is it a real fun to have your people killed? I don't think so. I will use any means to prevent it. Any means except manipulating game files. Another issue is whether the means are satisfactory. If they aren't I shall find another ways. Saving lives of my people isn't pointless - I haven't created them only to be killed.
3. Exp cap is a GIGANTIC NONSENSE. It is really annoying not to get a single exp point during the whole Chapter 6. It is unfair not to reward character's effort. Exp cap is unnecessary: if we do not want mages to learn lvl 9 spells, we can make all lvl 9 scrolls special scrolls (not writable to spellbooks). And so on ... But it is the right of the authors to set up rules for the game. Exp cap remover is a cheat.
2. Is it a real fun to have your people killed? I don't think so. I will use any means to prevent it. Any means except manipulating game files. Another issue is whether the means are satisfactory. If they aren't I shall find another ways. Saving lives of my people isn't pointless - I haven't created them only to be killed.
3. Exp cap is a GIGANTIC NONSENSE. It is really annoying not to get a single exp point during the whole Chapter 6. It is unfair not to reward character's effort. Exp cap is unnecessary: if we do not want mages to learn lvl 9 spells, we can make all lvl 9 scrolls special scrolls (not writable to spellbooks). And so on ... But it is the right of the authors to set up rules for the game. Exp cap remover is a cheat.
Deriel... my problem with Planescape is that it was sooo easy to slip from lawful good to a lesser good thus negating any chance you may have of wielding Celestial Fury against the Transcendant One. Of course, if you have to fight him, you've done something wrong 
. Magnificent game though, probably my favorite rpg ever, but that sword was just too damn hard to use.
. Magnificent game though, probably my favorite rpg ever, but that sword was just too damn hard to use.I think everyone is taking cheating too seriously on BG2. Before it can be a online game, everything goes. Just think of those hackers to be some powerful legendary figures (in RPG terms) who try to invent some powerful magic items, for example, how do you explain Elminster's ever smoking pipe? So shadowkeeper is just another powerful magical item. Of course, using it before you finish the game once will ruin your gaming experience.
These are the things I have done that I consider cheating:
1) Re-import my characters after the opening scene
2) Use pause/retalk to rack up experience
3) Install Joluv and Aurora
4) Dupe items by re-importing characters
5) Dupe items by steal/kill method
6) Power cycle the Staff of the Magi with a nishruu, sell it for 28 million gold pieces
7) Remove exp cap
8) Import and dupe the skills books from BG1
9) Export, load save, import main character in Hell to rack up exp, stats, saves, hp
10) Carry Drow items to the surface in my bag of holding. This only works sometimes and I haven't figured out the pattern
I justify it to myself since my main character is the son of a god. And gods make their own rules.
I haven't used an editor or a console.
1) Re-import my characters after the opening scene
2) Use pause/retalk to rack up experience
3) Install Joluv and Aurora
4) Dupe items by re-importing characters
5) Dupe items by steal/kill method
6) Power cycle the Staff of the Magi with a nishruu, sell it for 28 million gold pieces
7) Remove exp cap
8) Import and dupe the skills books from BG1
9) Export, load save, import main character in Hell to rack up exp, stats, saves, hp
10) Carry Drow items to the surface in my bag of holding. This only works sometimes and I haven't figured out the pattern
I justify it to myself since my main character is the son of a god. And gods make their own rules.
I haven't used an editor or a console.
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subterranean
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Who cares. Cheat. You only rob yourself of a good challenge and the thrill of finally overcoming something that took you hours to figure out.
Like those damn riddles. Only took me a week to figure out the age difference between that prince and princess
Like those damn riddles. Only took me a week to figure out the age difference between that prince and princess
If I could be At The Drive-In my life would be complete.
I see flinfman is still alive after all this posting to day .160+ to 220+ 4 hours. There's no hope for me now.
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(I would betray the world before i let the world betray me.) Cao Cao 192 a.d.
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(I would betray the world before i let the world betray me.) Cao Cao 192 a.d.
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.