Dueling Rules - Ideas (no spam)

Deadalready · Post by **Deadalready** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:25 am

Well this is based on the thread Which is stronger a thief or a fighter? so I thought we could make it almost into a game of sorts.

This thread is for ideas for rules only, all suggestions considered. I will hopefully make the real duel thread later.

Firstly the idea of the duel is to design a single character and a tactic set for fighting either a thief, fighter or a mage. The next person to post then designs a counter tactic that can beat the previous posters tactic combination.

The tactic combination is essentially a single battle plan not a multiple dynamic option plan. So a simple and easy to understand tactic, that has a maximum of 3 "what if" prevention plan. (A three move win scenario at most)

For example: Thief using Staff of Ram to backstab and then running away hiding then backstabbing again.

The next person would have to work out a tactic to beat the thief's tactic, then five more people would get the chance to use their tactic to counter the thief's tactic. The twist is the fifth person would then become the focus his character and tactic will become the focus of other poster's tactics.

So poster 5's Carsomyer wielding Inquistor, using truesight and Dispel would become the target of the next 5 assasins to beat. This way 5 posters would have a chance at presenting their ultimate win tactics before a change.

~

As for the rules this would best be designed for an unmodded game of Throne Of Bhaal, no items not available normally (except bonus merchants) can be used on characters. Though a character can have access to any legally gained weapon or item from the whole of the BG1, BG2 and TOB series, but no identical unique items.

Under no condition can a character have or use any healing items or spells.

The mages, fighters and thieves would all have the same experience values affecting their high level abilities and skills (experience open to discussion). They would also have the same amount of points available as far as stat points go but they can be offset by items.

My thoughts are that a character may be equiped with:

2 Weapons (melee or ranged, one pair of duel wields or sword and shield)
2 Rings
1 Cloak
1 Armour or robe
1 Amulet
1 Pair of boots
1 Helmet
1 Belt
1 Pair of Gloves
5 inventory items

Open to discussion!

Also I imagine it'd be important to think about implemention of cheese, maybe anything that's mentioned in User Friendly's guide should be banned from use in the dueling because they're so overpowered.

Finally I imagine it'd be somewhat important to install 3 different judges to decide what should be allowed and what shouldn't.

Now open for discussion.

Lonelypilgrim · Post by **Lonelypilgrim** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:10 am

When the real duel comes,then will we all choose the weapons with armor and stuff at first right?Can they be changed later on?I hope not.

Anyway,i thought that those who want to duel,set their equipment at first,and can`t change them.The best way for others to keep track is to make it a signature,well,so i thought.You also choose the class ofcourse,that can`t be changed.

Erm,maybe this is a little contra to your idea,but i look forward seeing the right duel.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:15 am

I would approach different classes with different tactics. Would you give us a starting "target" to attack (class, level, active spells / protections / items)?

Please also state which classes are ruled out - MC, DC, Druids, Bards, Sorc, anything else?

What about contingencies / triggers? No penalty, deduction of spells from spellbook or no contingencies / triggers at all?

Deadalready · Post by **Deadalready** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:52 am

Well I would set the first target for everyone to have a crack at and that's that question solved, the fifth post after that would become the target of assasinations. *No double posting mind you*

As for Dueling I think it would be best to simplify it to single class fighters, paladins, thieves and sorcerors but including kits. The future may hold more interesting options as ideas and standards get formed.
So a Inquistor would (for now) be allowed while a Fighter/Druid not.

The interesting part is whether to lock people into permanent items and equipment, if the target was a mage I'd definitely need different equipment to beat him rather than a Kensai (more magic resistance). I like the idea of posting a character sheet and simply pushing the limits of inventiveness like a real game, afterall an adventurer usually only wears what's on his back. Alternatively is posting a full blown character sheet before each post but that'd be tedious especially when it comes to stat distribution.

I think that maybe stats like Strength and Intelligence should be preset for classes to simplify and streamline things. Where as spells, skill proficiencies and thief skills subject to player discretion.

I'm not sure about triggers and contingencies though, there are ways around them but it's difficult, especially the old Chain Contingency x3 Horrid Wiltings. For now I think it'd be ok to use them but they can't be pre-prepared they'd have to be cast in the game and it'd take a tactic move out of a possible 3.

I think I may have to increase the tactic moves or think of a way to limit them.

SP101 · Post by **SP101** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:08 pm

What if timestop is used?
IMO, it should "consume" 1 move, and gives (2? 3? more?) free moves to the mage (or thief) using Timestop.

What if a character sends a "save or else" spell?

Can a druid use Nature's Beauty... since this means blind oponnent, wich is not *very* fair ?

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:10 pm

Sorry, but the ToB forum is really for questions (and answers) about BG2/ToB. So this gets moved to the SYM, Speak Your Mind, forum.

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:12 pm

Another problem would be the random nature of the game (dice rolls, e. g. attacks, saving throws, damage).

A GWW that scores ten criticals is one thing, ten critical misses are something else. Disintegrate may dust an opponent on the spot or may not. And so on.

Of course we could SK the characters and either fight in multiplayer or send them to someone (you?) who tests the outcome.

Which leads to the next problem: location. Indoors / outdoors makes a difference, walls and doors do as well (typical examples: some spells don't work inside, like earthquake; you can block a door with a summoned creature and deliver bullets or spells from a safe location).

Phantom Lord · Post by **Phantom Lord** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:19 pm

[QUOTE=fable]Sorry, but the ToB forum is really for questions (and answers) about BG2/ToB. So this gets moved to the SYM, Speak Your Mind, forum.[/QUOTE]@Fable
I understand your point, but this thread is quite interesting, is directly related to BGII / ToB tactics and would quickly "drown" in SYM. Couldn't we keep in in ToB?

Locke Da'averan · Post by **Locke Da'averan** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 1:32 pm

is there a time limit for the moves? i mean if a berserker berserks, can a thief simply wait in the shadows for him to get the penalty..?

or anyone wait for the mage to run out of prot spells while kicking it back in the other room/out of sight..?

sorry if i missed a part where this was explained..

Kipi · Post by **Kipi** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:02 pm

Okay, this sounds VERY interesting, but could you clear up the main idea a bit. Players who tries to deal with targets do damage to it, but target does not? or does target also do damage to attackers?

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:55 pm

This interests me... looks interesting.

What do you need to know to take part...?

fable · Post by **fable** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:28 pm

[QUOTE=Phantom Lord]@Fable
I understand your point, but this thread is quite interesting, is directly related to BGII / ToB tactics and would quickly "drown" in SYM. Couldn't we keep in in ToB?[/QUOTE]

It won't drown, there. Not if there's interest, and people stay on subject. I have faith in you folks.

Hill-Shatar · Post by **Hill-Shatar** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:54 pm

The next person would have to work out a tactic to beat the thief's tactic, then five more people would get the chance to use their tactic to counter the thief's tactic. The twist is the fifth person would then become the focus his character and tactic will become the focus of other poster's tactics.

I thought a duel is between two people. This is somewhat complicated... does this have anything to do with the fantasy wrestling game, which was posted a while ago?

EDIT: Ah, Throne of Bhaal.

So poster 5's Carsomyer wielding Inquistor, using truesight and Dispel would become the target of the next 5 assasins to beat. This way 5 posters would have a chance at presenting their ultimate win tactics before a change.

Again, somewhat confusing if not comlicated, but I get the gist of it... I think.

Under no condition can a character have or use any healing items or spells.

Understandable. but does this include things such as immoblilizing, where it is difficult to throw it off, since you cant control speech membranes, or anything. Might want to put a limit on those as well. As some items are, well, overpowerful.

Finally I imagine it'd be somewhat important to install 3 different judges to decide what should be allowed and what shouldn't.

I wouldnt be very good at the game. The throne of Bhaal was never my forte, and therefore did not finish. But if you cant find anybody in time, I can fill in until you can...

It won't drown, there. Not if there's interest, and people stay on subject. I have faith in you folks.

Sorry for off topicness, but the rest of post was... this is now in the SYM. This does not bode well...

no offence. Ill stay on topic from now on.

Deadalready · Post by **Deadalready** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:43 am

So many questions -_-

The idea of the duels is that you're supposed to create an "unbeatable tactic", one that won't fail and one that will win, almost no matter who uses it. The dueling tactics created are in a sense "An idiot's guide to beating class x".

You could use disintergrate, but it wouldn't be a good tactic.

~

For now Druids aren't allowed, but anyway if someone was to use a powerful spell like that then all the power to them, it just means they have a winning tactic. The greatest fun however is if that person becomes the focus and the next guy has to work out how to beat Nature's Beauty.

Timestop would count as one move, yes. Otherwise people would take advantage of it and just timestop non stop, again the idea is how to beat someone using timestop and how to protect one's self.

If it's a save or else spell I'd just have to go with "the worst case scenario", they will save. It's just like playing against the computer, I personally don't even use save or else spells because they're too unrealiable.

~

As for environment that's something I haven't thought about much, thieves aren't much use indoors. Maybe I'll randomly decide on a different location make things interesting, I can't give a proper answer.

Suggestions appreciated

~

Time limits on the other hand it'd have to be more or less immediate, once you start your attack it'd have be continued, the ingenity would be again beating an opponents defences.

Waiting for truesight run low is a no god.

~

As for dueling two characters.

The first character (the target) has a battle tactic, this battle tactic is designed to be offensively and defensively as perfect as possible.

The attacker will try and create a tactic, that nullifies the target's attack and defence while defeating the target himself. So there are two people the target and an attacker in an arena - the target will use his ultimate attack on the attacker, while the attacker will use his ultimate attack on the target.

(Does that make sense???)

~

Once there's enough suggestions and rules; a person would (for current vision) need to read the rules thread and then post a charcter - then just start posting in the right Arena.

This is a duel between two people, it's simply a chance so that more than one person has a chance at defeating a person's ultimate tactic. The idea is that each fight would start afresh, full health and skills.

It could be changed to simply, one persons beats the previous poster but then none of us would see different approaches to the same problem.

As for your second last question Hill1, I don't understand what you' mean... so I can't answer it sorry.

Luis Antonio · Post by **Luis Antonio** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:47 am

Maybe a single "match" is insuficient to see who's more powerfull. What about five rounds, each with different rules, to see who's stronger than who in each attribute? Cause if you think, even charisma is important. And this should be done in a D&D card game, not into some D&D built engine, such as BG.