Ring of Gaxx: role-playing issues

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 5:38 am

Would it be true to role-playing if you used the Ring of Gaxx with a Good character?

Perhaps doing this with a LG character would be powergaming, but I believe a NG or CG could use the ring while still RP-ing.
The Ring was created by killing 9 good wizards; wouldn't they want that their deaths resulted into something good? Perhaps they are pleased that the originally evil ring is now used to ais the forces of good.
My point is that using the ring might be a tribute to those wizards.

What do you think?

TC, Geert

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 7:09 am

Then it should be considered a good act to pickpocket kangaxx, meaning you then get an extra ring without killing 9 good wizards

Paxsenarrion · Post by **Paxsenarrion** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 7:10 am

Originally posted by MegaToerist:
<STRONG>Would it be true to role-playing if you used the Ring of Gaxx with a Good character?

Perhaps doing this with a LG character would be powergaming, but I believe a NG or CG could use the ring while still RP-ing.
The Ring was created by killing 9 good wizards; wouldn't they want that their deaths resulted into something good? Perhaps they are pleased that the originally evil ring is now used to ais the forces of good.
My point is that using the ring might be a tribute to those wizards.

What do you think?

TC, Geert</STRONG>

*rotflmao* Oy! I think tha' might be stretchin' it a *wee* bit, my friend, but I laud the dizzying logic of it.

Here is the best answer I can give, and I'll try to keep it low spoiler: Late in the game, you are offered an item that was created with similar evil intent... and accepting said item WILL change your alignment. Obviously, the boys who wrote the story think the answer to your question is: "Uhm... no."

Sometimes, good intentions just aren't enough

Consider also a more RL comparison: Would the children making Nike sneakers in sweatshops 16 hours a day be heartwarmed that you bought the fruits of their labors, and feel that you've given their sacrifice meaning?

Remember that the way *you* view and act does not always change the reality of what you're doing. Timothy McVeigh thinks what he did was an act of patriotism. Etc, etc, etc.

Stop me before I metaphor again!

Ciao!

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 7:53 am

Here is the best answer I can give, and I'll try to keep it low spoiler: Late in the game, you are offered an item that was created with similar evil intent... and accepting said item WILL change your alignment. Obviously, the boys who wrote the story think the answer to your question is: "Uhm... no."

It's not the use of that item that changes your alignment, but the other choice you have to make in that situation.

Sometimes, good intentions just aren't enough Consider also a more RL comparison: Would the children making Nike sneakers in sweatshops 16 hours a day be heartwarmed that you bought the fruits of their labors, and feel that you've given their sacrifice meaning?

But in the game, you use the ring to battle against Evil. This would mean, when appied to your example, that you'd use the money you make winning races to fight against the injustice there.

My point is, that the Ring of Gaxx should surely be destroyed. Unfortunately, that's not an option in the game. Therefore, the next best option should be used. And isn't using the ring to conquer the exact forces that created it a nice option (it's like the adagio "Evil turns in on itself" (from Dragonlance), or the "Evil will provide the tools to destroy it" (don't know from where

)

Sure, the use of the Ring by a LG character is completely out of character, but I think it might be possible for a CG (or perhaps a NG character).

Timothy McVeigh thinks what he did was an act of patriotism.

But I don't think he can be classified as CG or NG

I'm not trying to break anybody down, but rather starting up a RP discussion. And I thought that the use of those "evil" items might just be a nice topic.

TC, Geert

Paxsenarrion · Post by **Paxsenarrion** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 8:26 am

You have valid arguements, but honestly they sound a bit more like justifications. Like, you'd make an excellent spin doctor for a crooked politician

I certainly appreciate the sparking of a spirited RP debate, and I'm certainly not aggravated or offended by the counter-points, but I gotta stick to my guns, as you stick to your ring: The sweatshop kids would probably infinitely prefer you find another way to fight for their cause, and they would be right in that there are *thousands* of other options. Buying Nikes is one, but is it a *good* one? Not really *grin*

The ends do not justify the means, my friend.

Just the humble opinion (okay, not even remotely humble...) of a girl who knows next to nothing about not much.

Ode to a Grasshopper · Sat Nov 03, 2001 8:30 am

As written in the BG2 manual

"Therefore, Lawful Good characters strive for those things that will bring the greatest benefit to the most people and cause the least harm."

The ring's already been made, so using it isn't going to cause any harm. Whether what you do whilst wearing the Ring benefits others or not is up to you.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 8:58 am

shouldn't the ring be on the two lich"guards"?(And i wouldn't be surprised if the wizards are LG)

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 9:27 am

Like, you'd make an excellent spin doctor for a crooked politician

Grrrrrr! let's not get into politics, shall we

The sweatshop kids would probably infinitely prefer you find another way to fight for their cause, and they would be right in that there are *thousands* of other options. Buying Nikes is one, but is it a *good* one? Not really *grin*

Sure, there are better options. But if you found the shoes on some wicked lich...

You gotta work with the means you have available, don't you.
I think our difference in opinions comes from the creating/buying vs finding difference... If you find them, the producing company will not make any profit because of you.

TC, Geert

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: MegaToerist ]

Paxsenarrion · Post by **Paxsenarrion** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 9:46 am

That's the best giggle I've had all week, envisioning kacking some awesome mega-lich and swiping his Nikes! *lol*

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 10:21 am

BTW, welcome Paxsenarrion!!

THE JAKER · Post by **THE JAKER** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:28 am

Luckily for me, I am chaotic evil, and thus find no harm in holding onto my jewel encrusted Nikes of Gaxx! (3 improved hastes per day)

What about an evil fighter-thief who got their hands on Carsomyr or other good items? I could see both sides of it - you could be pragmatic and say "I'll use the sword on the goody-goodies", but would an evil character even want to look at the sword let alone touch it? You know that in a real campaign a sword like Carsomyr would find some way to turn on the evil SOB, similarly a paladin who went around wearing the ring of gaxx thinking "well it was already made so there's no harm" would no doubt come to some horrible end - these artifacts are not inert, they are sentient and willful.

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 11:52 am

@JAKER: That's what if find missing from BG: gradual alignment shifts due to the use of certain items. I do indeed think the Ring of Gaxx should slowly turn the wearer into an Evil character. (Same would go for Blackrazor and Robe of Vecna!!)
I've been trying to add those effects to certain items, but I'm no scripter, and it can't be done with IEEP

.

TC, Geert

Bruce Lee · Post by **Bruce Lee** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 2:12 pm

You are right about robe of vecna. For aerie to wear that robe is as bad as a paladin wearing ring of gaxx.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 3:04 pm

And then i put them BOTH on and feed the change

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Sat Nov 03, 2001 4:03 pm

@JAKER: That's what if find missing from BG: gradual alignment shifts due to the use of certain items. I do indeed think the Ring of Gaxx should slowly turn the wearer into an Evil character. (Same would go for Blackrazor and Robe of Vecna!!)
I've been trying to add those effects to certain items, but I'm no scripter, and it can't be done with IEEP .
TC, Geert

It would indeed be very easy to do with scripts...The problem is you would probably need to either attach said script to Baldur or put it on player 1 at any location other than class (there are 6 script location for every cre, in case you didnt know, which you probably did).

And either option could cause conflicts further on down the road if other people edit/modify those things (Baldur and player alternate script locations), but if things go as I hope, I wil be trying to organize a standard Baldur.bcs, which will be kept up to date, and feature all such mods in it, called the BALDUR STANDARD.

There will be a couple rules, however, that all people using the new standard must adhere to, in order to have their scripts appended.

1.) The appending of their script must cause no noticeable slowdown on a low end (200 mhz, 64 meg ram) machine.

2.) The appending of their script must not interfere with the basic functions of Baldur.bcs, or any ingame functions that Baldur calls.

3.) The apending of their script must use a global/ and or local variable to active said script, thus further insulating from slowdown. The global MUST be the persons initials followed by a description of what the global is doing, IE...Global("KR_STARTED_SHAPESHIFT_TIMER","GLOBAL",1)

4.) The appending of their script must not interfere with the actual game of SOA at all, unless that persons actual mod is installed. IE having 6 blocks of added code, yet only having 1 such feature installed, a global should be used to turn said block of code on, once installed. The global must folow the same format as the activating global, which describes what is being installed.

So anyway, I hope to form the commitee for the Baldur Standard soon, as it is badly needed, imo.

And back to the topic: a script to change alignment would be simple to do, basically something like this:

IF
Global("KR_STARTED_ALIGN_CHANGE","GLOBAL",0)
HasItemEquiped("SW1hXX",Player1)
Alignment(Player1,LAWFUL_GOOD)
THEN
RESPONSE #
SetGlobalTimer("KR_TIME_TO_CHANGE_ALIGN","GLOBAL",TWO_DAYS)
SetGlobal("KR_STARTED_ALIGN_CHANGE","GLOBAL",1)
END

IF
Global("KR_STARTED_ALIGN_CHANGE","GLOBAL",1)
!HasItemEquiped("SW1hXX",Player1)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("KR_STARTED_ALIGN_CHANGE","GLOBAL",0)
END

IF
Global("KR_STARTED_ALIGN_CHANGE","GLOBAL",1)
GlobalTimerExpired("KR_TIME_TO_CHANGE_ALIGN","GLOBAL")
Alignment(Player1,LAWFUL_GOOD)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("KR_STARTED_ALIGN_CHANGE","GLOBAL",2)
SetGlobalTimer("KR_TIME_TO_CHANGE_ALIGN","GLOBAL",TWO_DAYS)
ChangeAlignment(Player1,LAWFUL_NEUTRAL)
END

That would change alignment of player 1 from lawful good to lawful neutral after 2 days of having equipped sw1hXX... You could add more to it to change him all the way to Chaotic evil after a time...Currently 2 days is the time limit used before his first alignment change.

Or you could have it increment a global if he has the sword (or ring) equipped for a specific amount of time in seconds, something like this:

IF
GlobalLT("KR_TIME_TO_DROP_ALIGN","GLOBAL",21)
HasItemEquiped("SW1hXX",Player1)
Alignment(Player1,LAWFUL_GOOD)
!GlobalTimerNotExpired("KR_ALIGN_TIMER","GLOBAL")
THEN
RESPONSE #
IncrementGlobal("KR_STARTED_ALIGN_CHANGE","GLOBAL",1)
SetGlobalTimer("KR_ALIGN_TIMER","GLOBAL",300)
END

IF
!HasItemEquipped("SW1hXX",Player1)
!Global("KR_TIME_TO_DROP_ALIGN","GLOBAL",0)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
SetGlobal("KR_TIME_TO_DROP_ALIGN","GLOBAL",0)
SetGlobalTimer("KR_ALIGN_TIMER","GLOBAL",1)
END

That will increment the global by one, every 300 seconds, unless they unequip the item, which will set the global back to 0 until it is equipped again, and restart the timer.

Anyway, hope it helps!

(fixed a spelling error, and added some more ideas...)

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: KensaiRyu ]

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:21 am

@KensaiRyu: That's some great ideas you have. I'll await the arrival of the standard with impatience!

An idea for such alignment changes:

LG -> LN -> N -> NE -> CE
NG -> N -> CN -> CE
CG -> CN -> CE
LN -> N -> NE -> CE
N -> CN -> CE
CN -> CE
LE -> NE -> CE
NE -> CE

A same evolution (but inverted direction, to LG) could happen to thieves using Carsomyr or Purifier (eventually, even turn them into fighters?)
Other "good" items: Foebane, Armor of Hart ?

Thanks for the input,
Geert

Olelghinn · Post by **Olelghinn** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:06 am

I dunno. I can't currently go into depth of why, because I'm listening to music as I type this (

) but quite frankly, things like that would not break it.

When you table top, you don't go 'Hmm, I just killed this gnoll shaman. He's got some stuff, but I wonder if equipping it will corrupt me'. It's not the items. It's the actions done with 'em.

Now, of course, if there is a powerfully evil item, and it is sentient, then that is when it becomes dangerous. But usually things like that have a will of their own, and they are trying to corrupt you. Vecna's Robes can smell of evil as much as they want, but they are not alive. Thus, they can't push you to any further evil than you are willing to pull yourself to.

So no. If my L/G character valiently slays a monster that was using this item for evil, and he now uses it and is using it for good, it doesn't make him evil for using it. Not how D+D works.

If I remember Blackrazor's thing right, you either could keep it and kill the djinn with it.. or hand it to him? The reason you're evil then is obvious. Ya killed the djinn. ^^; That act would most likely push you to neutral standards, but I doubt immediately into evil (unless your character was wicked about it, or something. But honestly, why would they if they were a good alignment?).

I don't know. That last part was rambled. I tell ya, the music is too good! I can't focus!

MegaToerist · Post by **MegaToerist** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:36 am

The alignment change wouldn't occur with every item; only the real powerful ones would cause this:

EVIL:
- Robe of Vecna: similar to the Eye and Hand of Vecna in PnP
- Ring of Gaxx: see "Robe of Vecna"
- Blackrazor: Of course, your alignment would shift the first time when you killed the Djinn (not to NE, but perhaps only to xN), and then further on to NE(CE) when you use the sword (this would represent the initial corruption by killing the Djinn, and the further "degradation" for not showing any remorse)

GOOD: (mostly here to balance things out a bit, and is nice for RP)
- Carsomyr/Purifier: Non-good thieves using these weapons are bound to find out they are changed by it: eventually, they'll become LG, thus being unable to use their thieving skills. (just disable the buttons...

)
- ??? (any suggestions welcome)

TC, Geert

KensaiRyu · Post by **KensaiRyu** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:19 pm

Originally posted by MegaToerist:
<STRONG>The alignment change wouldn't occur with every item; only the real powerful ones would cause this:

EVIL:
- Robe of Vecna: similar to the Eye and Hand of Vecna in PnP
- Ring of Gaxx: see "Robe of Vecna"
- Blackrazor: Of course, your alignment would shift the first time when you killed the Djinn (not to NE, but perhaps only to xN), and then further on to NE(CE) when you use the sword (this would represent the initial corruption by killing the Djinn, and the further "degradation" for not showing any remorse)

GOOD: (mostly here to balance things out a bit, and is nice for RP)
- Carsomyr/Purifier: Non-good thieves using these weapons are bound to find out they are changed by it: eventually, they'll become LG, thus being unable to use their thieving skills. (just disable the buttons... )
- ??? (any suggestions welcome)

TC, Geert</STRONG>

Sounds good to me =). Alot of value for roleplaying. Indeed, I think most gamers would agree with this. It would be a great Add-on...

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:28 pm

I reckon alot of people won't like it too