VV, Hunters, and Noise

yrthwyndandfyre · Post by **yrthwyndandfyre** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:39 pm

When resolving VV's quests, apparrently using powers against hunters constitutes 'noise' and VV does not approve of it. Just an FYI. You have to take on Chastity full vanilla, ergo you have to beat her to death.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:44 pm

you can use blood buff though no problem which makes life a little easier, and as a tremere you can use bloodshield and still make no noise as i have done that several times. the same goes with fortitude and protean as a gangrel

Evrae · Post by **Evrae** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:18 pm

Yeah I discovered that when I decided to use celerity to polish her off a little faster. Although I don't see how using a completely silent discipline in the near abandoned lower level of a sleaze store then killing the only witness constitutes 'noise'.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:26 pm

vv does say don't use your disciplines though, even though i never understood that as you kill the only person that sees you lol, so that may be why it does it like that.

Evrae · Post by **Evrae** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:39 pm

Yeah I think troika slipped up a little there, VV mentions to be careful using your disciplines around the hunter. But I don't see any problem in using one if it's discreet and as the only person seeing you use it is a mortal who's already aware of supernatural powers and is about to die.

Confuzzled · Post by **Confuzzled** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:13 am

Did you get the other "dancer" to leave the area? I've never had any problem making use of Suicide to do the job nice and quickly. Similarly any trance discipline effect followed by feeding. What you can't do is be seen causing the death by supernatural means.

I wonder if Thaumaturgy and Animalism might not be acceptable though, as they may well cause too much noise, so one is left with dominate (definitely works) and maybe dementation as instant kill options.

MalaksBane · Post by **MalaksBane** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:57 am

[QUOTE=yrthwyndandfyre]You have to take on Chastity full vanilla, ergo you have to beat her to death.[/QUOTE]

As with all hunters, I find draining her is more satisfying

Lucita · Post by **Lucita** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:45 am

Most disciplines won't work on a Hunter, that's why VV said that about the disciplines. I think you might get a Masquerade breach though if the other dancer is still around.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:08 am

i've never not been able to get a discipline to work on a hunter. some disciplines do make noise so i can understand why you couldn't use them, but i've used bloodshield, blood salvo etc. on the hunter and still passed the mission in a way that kept vv happy (i.e. no noise). i've even gone into gangrel warform and done it before, again no noise and vv was happy. never tried the noisy disciplines like the bats or the ravens that animalism uses though.

pennypincher · Post by **pennypincher** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 3:52 pm

maybe VV was just worried that, as most strip jonits do, there would be cameras to watch over the safty of the dancers... So discplines like Celerity would be noticed regardless of if or not you removed the other dancer.

Er... Not that I know a lot about strip club security!...

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:53 pm

The only disciplines that upset VV and possibly cause you to fail this quest are those that violate the masquerade. Suicide, Vision of Death, Blood Buff, are all fine.

I believe VV's reasoning is as follows: She knows hunters are after her. "Chastity" is just one of them. There may be others in the area (and we see that indeed there are, in the Asp Hole). So she wants Chastity dealt with quietly, in a manner that would not tip the other hunters off. In other words, no death by supernatural means. Hunters might recognize the signs.

You can clear the area of witnesses, but a gunshot would draw attention. They might just come running back to see what's going on and call the police, spoiling your escape. So guns are out as well.

To sum up, Chastity must appear to be the victim of a natural death or a common murder, and you have to do it quietly to avoid attracting unwanted attention.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 8:40 pm

[QUOTE=Anaximander]The only disciplines that upset VV and possibly cause you to fail this quest are those that violate the masquerade. Suicide, Vision of Death, Blood Buff, are all fine. [/QUOTE]

thats not strictly true as you can use protean warform as a gangrel and bloodshield as a tremere (both violate the masquerade) and still do it exactly how vv wants you to do it. blood salvo also violates the masquerade and i have used that before too and passed the mission exactly how vv wants it to be done.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:49 pm

[QUOTE=mr_sir]thats not strictly true as you can use protean warform as a gangrel and bloodshield as a tremere (both violate the masquerade) and still do it exactly how vv wants you to do it. blood salvo also violates the masquerade and i have used that before too and passed the mission exactly how vv wants it to be done.[/QUOTE]

What version of the game are you running? The unofficial patches may have changed this. I know that on 1.2, my Gangrel failed for using protean.

mr_sir · Post by **mr_sir** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:43 am

[QUOTE=Anaximander]What version of the game are you running? The unofficial patches may have changed this. I know that on 1.2, my Gangrel failed for using protean.[/QUOTE]

the tremere was the official 1.2 patch but the gangrel was the unofficial 1.8 patch.

Confuzzled · Post by **Confuzzled** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 3:28 pm

This is staring to get confusing! If it just Masquerade violating disciplines? But apparently Bloodshield is OK?

For mr_sir and Anaximander, what level Protean were you at? Protean is of course rather difficult as it is only sometimes a Masquerade violation. Maybe hunters think that attacks from wild animals (that are not really nasty attacks) are normal in Hollywood (they do seem to have semi-monastic lifestyles, the city must be a dangerous place to them)? People can get llamas at short notice after all!

Evidently the game logic is not perfect. If it were supernatural deaths, all Protean would be out, and draining her to death while feeding should be too (it's quite rare for a clearly young woman to suddenly lose most of her blood without it lying around somewhere).

So far we have:

trance + feeding - good, no problems;
Suicide - good;
bloodbuff - good;
bloodshield - good on 1.2 patch;
bloodsalvo - good on 1.2 patch;
Protean (level ?) - apparently good on 1.8 patch;
Protean (level ?) - apparently bad on 1.2 patch;
celerity - bad on 1.2 patch;
guns - bad

Any more tried and tested? Looks like protean is the obvious complication.

Yrth, what disciplines were using, since you started this all off?

Does anyone know if Chastity can see through obfuscate or not?

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:33 pm

In my case it was Protean level 5. Clearly a Masquerade violation. I wasn't thinking at the time, or I wouldn't have used it.

The reason I believed that Masquerade violating disciplines were all unacceptable was because I also failed as a Toreador for using Clerity 4. The only thing that Protean and Celerity have in common is that both violate the Masquerade starting at rank 2. It seemed logical to infer from this that any discipline that violates the Masquerade would result in failing this quest.

I failed once as a Nosferatu for taking Chastity out with a shotgun - again, not thinking. VV was very displeased with me for making such a rucus.

In my first post in this thread, I was merely trying to get into VV's head (the one place she wouldn't want me to go), and see if I could understand her instructions. She's identified one hunter, but knows there are more in the area. She suspects Chastity knows what she is, so she wants her taken care of. However, she does not want any other hunters to grow suspicious.

That, I believe, is what the character VV was thinking. The game developers on the hand...? Who knows. Based on the testimony in this thread, the disciplines that result in failure seem to have been chosen arbitrarily.

MalaksBane · Post by **MalaksBane** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:38 am

An undercover hunter murdered would attract attention (from the Society) anyway, in that respect it would probably be less suspicious if you killed her with a gun then with a blade or fists.

VV wants you to kill the hunter and she wants you to do it on her terms. She's just trying to get control over you.

gothmetalla666 · Post by **gothmetalla666** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:31 pm

...Yup. I was able to kill her quite easily as a Toreador with Blood Buff to increase my melee stats, even with a lowly knife at the time, I slashed her up a lot with ease. *grins manically* :devil: and VV seemed happy with me.

yrthwyndandfyre · Post by **yrthwyndandfyre** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:53 pm

[QUOTE=gothmetalla666]...Yup. I was able to kill her quite easily as a Toreador with Blood Buff to increase my melee stats, even with a lowly knife at the time, I slashed her up a lot with ease. *grins manically* :devil: and VV seemed happy with me.

[/QUOTE]
I think I see the pattern here. It's not so much about Masquerade Violations versus non-Masquerade Violations, or even so much about active versus passive disciplines. It's about defensive versus offensive disciplines. Defensive are OK, offensive are not.
The distinction would probably be that defensive disciplines affect only your character, while offensive disciplines affect your opponent or your environment. Thus, warform is fine, but celerity is not. After all, warform is just a form of lycanthropy. The fact that it makes you more lethal to your enemies is not because of anything you did to them, any more than Blood Buff is. Celerity, on the other hand, must work not by speeding you up to faster than a bullet, but by slowing their perception of you down so that you appear faster than a bullet.
It's the whole Star Trek inertial damper thing. Even as a vampire, how could you accelerate to hyper-speed in an instant without blowing all of your organs out through your back, or at least blowing all your weaponry out through your back? You can't.

Anaximander · Post by **Anaximander** » Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:47 pm

MalaksBane wrote:She's just trying to get control over you.

Most assuredly. She puts on the Toreador charm and seizes the opportunity to test you, to see how easily you can be manipulated into doing her will, and how well you follow direction.

Still, I think my reasoning about her directions regarding Chastity is sound.

I think I see the pattern here. It's not so much about Masquerade Violations versus non-Masquerade Violations, or even so much about active versus passive disciplines. It's about defensive versus offensive disciplines. Defensive are OK, offensive are not.
The distinction would probably be that defensive disciplines affect only your character, while offensive disciplines affect your opponent or your environment. Thus, warform is fine, but celerity is not. After all, warform is just a form of lycanthropy. The fact that it makes you more lethal to your enemies is not because of anything you did to them, any more than Blood Buff is. Celerity, on the other hand, must work not by speeding you up to faster than a bullet, but by slowing their perception of you down so that you appear faster than a bullet.
It's the whole Star Trek inertial damper thing. Even as a vampire, how could you accelerate to hyper-speed in an instant without blowing all of your organs out through your back, or at least blowing all your weaponry out through

Actually, protean 5 resulted in failure for me on game version 1.2. I've just started some new games on 2.0, but my first run on this version is with a Tremere. Just took Chastity out with Suicide (quick, easy, doesn't get blood all over my nice new leather jacket - love it!). Next game, I'll try another clan and another discipline and see what happens.